Actually it's precisely relevent.

You expect muslims to answer for the disturbing things that happen in their name.

When they or people who think there's a wider issue tell you that it's not a representative behaviour, or that there are caveats attached, or that it's not in their name or that of their particular community - then you accuse them of "excusing the behaviour".

But you do precisely the same thing when presented with a disturbing upshot of your own indirect actions, or things condoned and carried out by your government.

Even though that's actually something you could really do something about. By voting lib dem, or writing to your MP or something.

Who is at fault - moderate muslims who don't do enough (in your eyes) to prevent abuse - or you for excusing our expedient poisonous wonder weaponry?

Or everyone - because we're animals and not actors and this is what being human is like?

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 09:32 AM ----------


Not bizarre - human. Everyone is connected to shite, and everyone defends or excuses their own connections to shite.

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 09:35 AM ----------


Well that's obvious.

Look, just don't let it worry you.

You are out of arguments aren't you. That's normal, people who are the result of 4, 5 or 6 hundred years of history can't readilly grasp the realities of people who are the result of 3, 4 or 5 thousand years of history. My guru wants me to give up respect, so I'll just try patience, but not with you, I'm out of here!

You are out of arguments aren't you. That's normal, people who are the result of 4, 5 or 6 hundred years of history can't readilly grasp the realities of people who are the result of 3, 4 or 5 thousand years of history. My guru wants me to give up respect, so I'll just try patience, but not with you, I'm out of here!

Actually it's precisely relevent.

You expect muslims to answer for the disturbing things that happen in their name.

When they or people who think there's a wider issue tell you that it's not a representative behaviour, or that there are caveats attached, or that it's not in their name or that of their particular community - then you accuse them of "excusing the behaviour".

But you do precisely the same thing when presented with a disturbing upshot of your own indirect actions, or things condoned and carried out by your government.

Even though that's actually something you could really do something about. By voting lib dem, or writing to your MP or something.

Who is at fault - moderate muslims who don't do enough (in your eyes) to prevent abuse - or you for excusing our expedient poisonous wonder weaponry?

Or everyone - because we're animals and not actors and this is what being human is like?

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 09:32 AM ----------


Not bizarre - human. Everyone is connected to shite, and everyone defends or excuses their own connections to shite. Very few people honestly own their shite.

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 09:35 AM ----------


Well that's obvious.

Look, just don't let it worry you.

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 09:38 AM ----------


Well if we're going to get into bygones let's have a chat about Tasmania.

You just dont get it do you Dave ? well expect you do but this is your only way of diverting the debate. Every nation, every race, including mine has many historic or recent deplorable actions.

You are right to mention them but this is not about individual acts but a mind set, an allowance, a constant horror that will be repeated again and again.

u Its like capital punishment in America and the fundamentalist view on it or the RC church dogmatic approach to contraception. You can bring any of these subjects up but not now.

Not historic - we could ratify against it right now.A human mindset of denying that things are done in your name if you don't like those things even if really they are things you can put pressure on.Why?

I know why.

Because this is a "watch muslims squirm" thread.

Like the last "watch muslims squirm" thread.

And the one before that.

Because muslims aren't popular.

Because they do some shite.

So let's "watch muslims squirm".

Even though we also do shite.

That's what you want - I'm distracting you - so you'll accuse me of excusing muslims.

But I'm not excusing muslims.

I'm just not watching them squirm either.

Sigh. Another red herring. They do behead people for being Infidels, we don't behead or kill people for being Muslim. That is a fact.

"They" aren't an actor and neither are "we". Though if "we" are an actor I don't know why "our" deployment of weapons we know cause birth defects is better than "their" taste for execution by beheading.

But for the record I did display a distaste in general for capital punishment in one of my first posts in the thread - even though I've apparently been excusing it - and I'll happily dig up the points I made then if you want to discuss it.

But it's a general point - not just *****ing about Islam.

I really have no idea of what you are talking about.

I really have no idea of what you are talking about.

He thinks you guys are firstly discriminating against Islam, and secondly excusing your own culture's atrocities. That is, you're being unfair to Islam and being a hypocrite. Is this correct, Dave?

I don't think you're being honest - I've actually spoken to you on the subject in other threads before, and posted two links on the issue in this thread. If you're genuinely curious there's a link on the previous page or two, and umpteen related articles just a Google search away.

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 10:42 AM ----------


Sort of.

To be frank I was intially interested in discussing the abuses of Islam (as a gestalt) - just not under the context of sensationalist claims and fake imagery.

I even posted accordingly about capital punishment and erosion of women's rights in societies under duress.

But the only response I seemed to get was that I was "excusing Islam".

I think that's a load of old wallop, hence my change in tone. It's clear some people just want to demonise muslims - it's not hard to do because there's plenty of nasty stuff to exaggerate.

Xris, Ken and Alan don't seem to me to want a sensible discussion - but frothing outright condemnation of the whole.

But there's no need to accuse others of excusing Islam just because they aren't on the same exaggeration trip.

And - yes - just as much to get upset about regarding things done in/by our own societies - if you're prepared to look for it.

And, of course, many non-Islam countries have their atrocities, but bringing them up, in this case, is a Red Herring.

They do saw off the heads of people for not being Muslim, don't they, whatever happens or does not happen in other societies? What is there to discuss? And Josh did not have to worry about keeping his head in London.

I don't think it is.

In sensible discussion of the gestalt's problems it might be - but that's not what's occuring on this thread.

What is occuring is that muslims as a whole are being asked to answer for the atrocities of Islam, and that people who aren't into that are being accused of excusing said atrocities.

That's not fair or accurate.

The situation isn't occuring in a vacuum, for a start, and isn't condoned by everyone who thinks Mohammed is Allah's prophet.

The actions of a few have tainted the whole. As sensible and non-discriminatory as we try to be, that's just the case.

I mean, would you honestly not be scared to go over to country X which just killed someone of your country Y for being an Infidel, even knowing that not everyone in country X would do such a thing?

I don't think it is.

In sensible discussion of the gestalt's problems it might be - but that's not what's occuring on this thread.

What is occuring is that muslims as a whole are being asked to answer for the atrocities of Islam, and that people who aren't into that are being accused of excusing said atrocities.

That's not fair or accurate.

The situation isn't occuring in a vacuum, for a start, and isn't condoned by everyone who thinks Mohammed is Allah's prophet.

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 10:58 AM ----------


"They" aren't an actor. Even if "They" were "They" aren't the only people to execute others. "They" aren't even the only people to behead others.

Who ever said that all muslims act in the same manner,who?

come on Dave you've made the accusation point it out, this exaggeration.

You did not, I notice ,criticise the obvious biased views against whites in general, strange that.

Not up for my challenge then?

The Roman Catholic Church is an institution I find responsible for much misery - the difference between it as muslims is that it is an actor.

Clearly all Chrisitians are not responsible for the small minority who support the killing of abortionists.

I haven't personally found muslims to be insular - mind you I did have to go out my way to be friendly to a couple of them before they opened up and began talking. A lot of them have english as a second language, and our media channels certainly like to paint them as outsiders. I don't think much effort is needed in order to find one willing to talk if you are willing to listen.

I don't think full implication of shariah is something most muslims want in the UK. I think shariah property and lending laws are being called for. Like all laws I think they require examination on a law by law basis. It's not all or nothing.