Woman being stoned to death Islam Explain

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Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:49 am
@xris,
xris;150765 wrote:
The problem is endemic in society it refuses to debate or even acknowledge there is problem. Comedians that find it easy to ridicule absolutely any thing and anyone, shy from the idea of making the same jokes about Islam.

YouTube - Julian Cope - All The Blowing Themselves Up
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 06:57 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave I know you disagree with me on this subject but what is this obscure link. I have no idea what it was about or who they are. I did try listening to it three times.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 08:27 am
@xris,
xris;150806 wrote:
Dave I know you disagree with me on this subject but what is this obscure link. I have no idea what it was about or who they are. I did try listening to it three times.

Well my main point was to provide you with some of the pop cultural criticism of Islam you seemed to claim people were too scared to do.

FWIW - I don't see any paucity of criticism of Islam in our media, I think it's pretty pervasive and disproportionate in highlighting the lunatic fringe.

What I think IS hard to do is lampoon the prophet Muhammed - that is actually something you can't do in a publication without arousing intense and dangerous forces.

I reckon that's quite deplorable.

However, the strawmanning of that to wingeing about how "you can't criticise Islam per se" is also pants. That debate is not being hindered.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 11:01 am
@Dave Allen,
Its not exactly main stream humour that we see regularly on the box is it Dave. Its approached with apprehension the idea of ridiculing the Islamic faith, can you imagine The Life of Brian , with Mohamed as the point of reference. The threat of death, government falling, riots.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 12:34 pm
@xris,
xris;150906 wrote:
Its not exactly main stream humour that we see regularly on the box is it Dave.
Well, you didn't specify the mainstream... Strikes me that you're going to play the move the goalposts game:

"You casn't criticse Islam!"

"What about this?"

"Oh that doesn't count!"

Rubbish.

I don't really watch comedy on the telly so I can't appraise it as fully as I'd like. I did see some of Charlie Brokker's Screenwipe recently that dealt with Muslim fundamentalism - was quite cutting - but didn't end up with anyone threatened seriously as far as I know. I also saw Christopher Hitchens on Question Time being pretty frank about his negative feelings of Islam. Not comedy though...

I'm fairly certain I've seen Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle make muslims the targets of pretty rude jokes, and for what it's worth, there are often similar jibes on Have I Got News For You. Stewart Lee I recall made a satirical mag full of women in burkhas - having a pop at lad culture and islam at the same time. Goodness Gracious Me used to have the odd pop at Muslims and the Kashmir situation, though it's been a while since they were on the TV.

But I'm not a big comedy fan. If I were I'm sure I cou;d present lots more examples. Jimmy Carr's about as mainstream as it gets these days I think (mind you - if there's one person whose beheading I might support it'd be Jimmy Carr).

Oh, there's Chris Morris' jihadii comedy that is due to come out soon - I like him and I'm quite looking forward to it. Knowing Chris Morris I doubt it'll pull many punches.

As for a comedy about Mohammed himself being made, I doubt it - but as I said in my last post lampooning the prophet does seem to invariably provoke responses I find deplorable.

Whilst I think it's unfortunate that we are in that situation it's a mere aspect of criticising Islam - not the whole.

Point being: It's easy to use Salman Rushdie and Danish cartoonists and pretend that that's what happens if you criticise or make fun of Islam, period.

Whilst those acts of violence sparked by the Satanic Verses and pics of mohammed with a bomb in his turban are awful - there are circumstances attached to those reactions that aren't attached to all critique or lampooning of Islam which does go on.

To say "people are too scared to make fun of Islam" means that you aren't looking.

You're not supporting such satire - because you deny it exists - which means people won't be so intertested in making it. Maybe if you got your head out of the sand you might make a small bit of difference - rather than ignoring what's there and then complaining about it's absence.

Did you buy the Satanic Verses, or read it? Or suggest it be made into a film? Or anything positive to promote satirising Islam? If you want to see more of something support what's out there. Then maybe there will come a day when people are moved to satirise it even further.

And, for what it's worth, it's an insult to those muslims who tolerate or even enjoy it to say there's no such satire out there.

But perhaps you'd rather just perpetrate a paranoid fantasy where "you can't say anything bad about Islam" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look - I'll put my money where my mouth is and I'll even have a go myself...

The prophet sucks willies.

Nothing stopping me is there?

EDIT: Provided the mods don't mind, or something.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 01:07 pm
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;150956 wrote:
Well, you didn't specify the mainstream... Strikes me that you're going to play the move the goalposts game:

"You casn't criticse Islam!"

"What about this?"

"Oh that doesn't count!"

Rubbish.

I don't really watch comedy on the telly so I can't appraise it as fully as I'd like. I did see some of Charlie Brokker's Screenwipe recently that dealt with Muslim fundamentalism - was quite cutting - but didn't end up with anyone threatened seriously as far as I know. I also saw Christopher Hitchens on Question Time being pretty frank about his negative feelings of Islam. Not comedy though...

I'm fairly certain I've seen Jimmy Carr and Frankie Boyle make muslims the targets of pretty rude jokes, and for what it's worth, there are often similar jibes on Have I Got News For You. Stewart Lee I recall made a satirical mag full of women in burkhas - having a pop at lad culture and islam at the same time. Goodness Gracious Me used to have the odd pop at Muslims and the Kashmir situation, though it's been a while since they were on the TV.

But I'm not a big comedy fan. If I were I'm sure I cou;d present lots more examples.

Oh, there's Chris Morris' jihadii comedy that is due to come out soon - I like him and I'm quite looking forward to it.

As for a comedy about Mohammed himself being made - I doubt it - but as I said in my last post lampooning the prophet does seem to invariably provoke responses I find deplorable.

Whilst I think it's unfortunate that we are in that situation it's a mere aspect of criticising Islam - not the whole.

Point being: It's easy to use Salman Rushdie and Danish cartoonists and pretend that that's what happens if you criticise or make fun of Islam, period.

Whilst those acts of violence sparked by the Satanic Verses and pics of mohammed with a bomb in his turban are awful - there are circumstances attached to those reactions that aren't attached to all critique or lampooning of Islam which does go on.

To say "people are too scared to make fun of Islam" means that you aren't looking.

You're not supporting such satire - because you deny it exists - which means people won't be so intertested in making it. Maybe if you got your head out of the sand you might make a small bit of difference - rather than ignoring what's there and then complaining about it's absence.

Did you buy the Satanic Verses, or read it? Or suggest it be made into a film? Or anything positive to promote satirising Islam? If you want to see more of something support what's out there. Then maybe there will come a day when people are moved to satirise it even further.

And, for what it's worth, it's an insult to those muslims who tolerate or even enjoy it to say there's no such satire out there.

But perhaps you'd rather just perpetrate a paranoid fantasy where "you can't say anything bad about Islam" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Look - I'll put my money where my mouth is and I'll even have a go myself...

The prophet sucks willies.

Nothing stopping me is there?

EDIT: Provided the mods don't mind, or something.
Your anonymity is your safe guard, try that in a public place. Its not paranoia, you admit it yourself and then withdraw the admission.

Its no paranoia when death has resulted or five years of isolation. Even a countries commerce has suffered from boycott. No one dare stick their neck up too high, they may paddle but never attempt the deep end.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 01:29 pm
@xris,
xris;150982 wrote:
Your anonymity is your safe guard, try that in a public place.
Quote:
Its not paranoia, you admit it yourself and then withdraw the admission.


No I didn't - but there is some subtlety to my case and I will try explaining it to you once again - even though I think you're too hidebound to even try to understand it, frankly.

Lampooning the prophet and criticising islam are not the same. They can be, depending on how you do it - I could lampoon the prophet in a stupid way (for example, saying he sucks willies isn't critical of islam, it's just offensive to islam) or critique an aspect of islam that has nothing much to do with Muhammed.

Get it?

If you had said "you can't comfortably lampoon the prophet in public without fear" I would agree.

But you said "you can't criticise Islam" (or words to that effect).

Which is rubbish.

In order to prove my point that one should support satire I have said something disrespectful about Muhammed.

I don't respect your constant moving of the goalposts - I did it - whether or not it's in public.

We'll see what disasters ensue - I am not comfortable with it - partly because I don't like being so childishly antisocial and partly because I don't want nasty feelings to result, but let's just see eh?

Quote:
Its no paranoia when death has resulted or five years of isolation. Even a countries commerce has suffered from boycott. No one dare stick their neck up too high, they may paddle but never attempt the deep end.

What do you want to see? What have you done to support things like the Satanic Verses?

Anything?

You obviously just want to fulfill your own little nasty fantasy about big bad muslims. If you actually did something positive about the situation you'd prove to yourself that you're exaggerating it - so you have to keep repeating your mantra of "you can't say nothing bad about Islam" even though you're actually quite able to.

Yeah - bad things sometimes happen to satirists - and not just with Islam - it's risky getting people's backs up about things they care about.

But either grow some stones and support or do something - or just be a wingeing ninny exaggerating the truth beyond recognition in order to justify your own prejudices.

As for boycotts - so what? It's anyone's right to boycott stuff they don't like. I don't listen to Chris Moyles - that's not because I can't take him - it's because I don't like him. I don't buy Israeli or Iranian produce. Or Nestle stuff.

As is my right.

Death and unjust incarceration are nasty things - boycotts are peaceful and effective ways of expressing disapproval - to lump them together is ridiculous.

---------- Post added 04-12-2010 at 02:54 PM ----------

Ah, here's one of the Charlie Brooker things on a salient subject, being both critical of Muslim Extremists and of media hype over them.

But "you can't do this sort of thing out of fear" - of course.

YouTube - Anjem Choudary's contoversial publicity stunt
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:01 pm
@Dave Allen,
If you get personal and rude Dave you have lost the plot and the debate. I have no intentions of entering into a silly game of abusive rhetoric so night night.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:04 pm
@xris,
xris;151004 wrote:
If you get personal and rude Dave you have lost the plot and the debate.

Sorry, I thought it was you moaning about people not being able to be satirical or rude or critical.

Now you throw the toys out of the pram over some mild heat - which you earned for yourself because you are unable to stage a debate without moving the goalposts or actually attempting to understand other's points of view.

Bit hypocritical of you, frankly.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 06:58 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;151006 wrote:
Sorry, I thought it was you moaning about people not being able to be satirical or rude or critical.

Now you throw the toys out of the pram over some mild heat - which you earned for yourself because you are unable to stage a debate without moving the goalposts or actually attempting to understand other's points of view.

Bit hypocritical of you, frankly.
Dave if you want to insult me that's your prerogative but do it with a certain amount reasoning. You have to prove my prejudice as if its was ill founded or unreasonable. When you have proven that with logical reasoning you can call me whatever you like but not this silly rhetoric juvenile name calling, please.

I did not move the goalposts , if you had, had a decent shot at the goal I might have been tempted. You selected what you wanted to reply to and made silly comments about shouting out something about your willy.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 07:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
It seems to me that if there is unwonted hostility against Muslims, they have only themselves to blame. Case in point: that Third Secretary from Quatar's embassy in Washington, who made a sarcastic joke (I suppose he thought it was) about setting fire to his shoe when he was caught illegally smoking in the plane's bathroom. For him (a representative of his country) to joke about such a matter shows a grossness and insensitivity that comes only from training and from contempt. There is no one who thought that his action provoked an overreaction. Most people thought that simply being declared persona non grata was far to light a thing to be done to him. That kind of thing is infuriating.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 08:53 am
@xris,
xris;151309 wrote:
I did not move the goalposts , if you had, had a decent shot at the goal I might have been tempted.

What a load of tosh.

"You can't say anything bad about Islam."

"Here's an example."

"That's hardly mainstream."

"OK I'll do it."

"You couldn't get away with it in public."

That is dictionary definition moving of goalposts. Eventually you'll have me admitting it's dangerous to quote from the Satanic Verses whilst wearing a t-shirt with Danish cartoons on in the middle of a Taliban training camp - that much is true.

But that isn't the be all and end all of criticising Islam.

---------- Post added 04-13-2010 at 09:56 AM ----------

kennethamy;151311 wrote:
It seems to me that if there is unwonted hostility against Muslims, they have only themselves to blame. Case in point: that Third Secretary from Quatar's embassy in Washington, who made a sarcastic joke (I suppose he thought it was) about setting fire to his shoe when he was caught illegally smoking in the plane's bathroom. For him (a representative of his country) to joke about such a matter shows a grossness and insensitivity that comes only from training and from contempt. There is no one who thought that his action provoked an overreaction. Most people thought that simply being declared persona non grata was far to light a thing to be done to him. That kind of thing is infuriating.

I imagine somehwere that there are dumb and rude diplomats from other countries.

It's Nazi thinking really - here's a nepotistic Jew - ergo they are nepotists and we are best rid of them and, what's more, they only have themselves to blame.

Seriously - why should I think less of of, say, Salima because someone from Quatar makes a joke in questionable taste?

I mean, did people say to him they didn't think it was a subject for levity? Did he persist along the same lines afterward? Even if he was a jerk for making a, you know - JOKE - was he so insensitive as to continue in that vein when the gravity of jokes about bombs on planes and their lack of appropriateness was pointed out?

It's hardly damning of millions is it?
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:20 pm
@Dave Allen,
Dave face it, your only playing silly games without ever answering anything of consequence. Put your willy away it has no value.

I gave you an open opportunity to prove your abuse and all you want to talk about is football. Your silly attempts at diverting the debate has been noticed. Now I will ask you one more time prove your silly childish abuse has any foundation.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 03:47 pm
@xris,
xris;151406 wrote:
Dave face it, your only playing silly games without ever answering anything of consequence. Put your willy away it has no value.

I gave you an open opportunity to prove your abuse and all you want to talk about is football. Your silly attempts at diverting the debate has been noticed. Now I will ask you one more time prove your silly childish abuse has any foundation.

You are a hypocrite and an idiot.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 04:05 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;151515 wrote:
You are a hypocrite and an idiot.
And your an abusive fool that cant even attempt to demonstrate his reasoning. Why do you think anyone would want to debate with unfounded abuse, come along now Dave, why would they? Stop acting like a bully boy.
 
salima
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 09:03 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;151342 wrote:
What a load of tosh.

"You can't say anything bad about Islam."

"Here's an example."

"That's hardly mainstream."

"OK I'll do it."

"You couldn't get away with it in public."

That is dictionary definition moving of goalposts. Eventually you'll have me admitting it's dangerous to quote from the Satanic Verses whilst wearing a t-shirt with Danish cartoons on in the middle of a Taliban training camp - that much is true.

But that isn't the be all and end all of criticising Islam.

---------- Post added 04-13-2010 at 09:56 AM ----------


I imagine somehwere that there are dumb and rude diplomats from other countries.

It's Nazi thinking really - here's a nepotistic Jew - ergo they are nepotists and we are best rid of them and, what's more, they only have themselves to blame.

Seriously - why should I think less of of, say, Salima because someone from Quatar makes a joke in questionable taste?

I mean, did people say to him they didn't think it was a subject for levity? Did he persist along the same lines afterward? Even if he was a jerk for making a, you know - JOKE - was he so insensitive as to continue in that vein when the gravity of jokes about bombs on planes and their lack of appropriateness was pointed out?

It's hardly damning of millions is it?


ah, did someone mention my name?
hi dave!

for the record, i dont mind jokes regardless of the subject, especially when they are funny, no matter what they are about. but if i found myself laughing at those jokes, i would probably slap myself and stop listening. i think i might not like Muslims making jokes about Islam, though...

there is a certain sensitivity anyone may discover in himself-think about what you (anyone who is reading this) might not like to hear a joke about. maybe your mother? maybe your weight? there is always some limit that once it has been passed you will not be laughing.

so it is ok to want to support free speech, i dont have a television anyway. and i can choose what sites to visit on the internet. but there are sometimes obvious cases of people using humor as an excuse for hurting someone-for instance that is common in ragging. humiliation is not humor. some people dont know where to draw the line.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 11:47 am
@xris,
xris;151728 wrote:
Why do you think anyone would want to debate with unfounded abuse, come along now Dave, why would they?

Dunno - my abuse wasn't unfounded.

But I'm not surprised that you aren't up for discussing the matter in anything but misleading generalities.

One cannot expect a dwarf to queue for the rack.

---------- Post added 04-14-2010 at 12:56 PM ----------

salima;151815 wrote:
so it is ok to want to support free speech, i dont have a television anyway. and i can choose what sites to visit on the internet. but there are sometimes obvious cases of people using humor as an excuse for hurting someone-for instance that is common in ragging. humiliation is not humor. some people dont know where to draw the line.
Hello.

I don't think anyone really thinks free speech does not carry consequences. However, an issue I think pertinent to the matter is that western society tends to hold that whatever consequences freedom of speech might have - government persecution won't be one of them. Shout fire in a crowded theatre and you might get chucked out - or even be tagged as a disturber of the peace - but the government won't criminalise you for your opinion that you should.

And this can contrast sharply with the situation in certain middle or far eastern countries where a statement of opinion can lead to the death penalty ("I would like to apostocise", for example").

However, what I'm really interested in is why Ken reckons a joke - albeit an apparently distasteful one - is reason to lump Muslims in a "they ask for a hostile response" category.

Which is nonsense, I think.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:03 pm
@Dave Allen,
Im up for your insignificant rants but can you put your money where your mouth is. Up till now you have refused to take up the challenge. I will lay down willingly on your rack but you ain't got the strength to pull your own willy, let alone give me cause for concern
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:14 pm
@xris,
xris;151886 wrote:
I will lay down willingly on your rack but you ain't got the strength to pull your own willy.

That's OK - the prophet does it for me.

What challenge are you referring to exactly? As far as I see I've answered every question you've put to me - which isn't something you can claim in return.

If you don't feel I have answered stuff - maybe it's because You Are Too Stupid to entertain an argument of subtlety beyond your Daily Mail breed of balderdash.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 12:46 pm
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;151892 wrote:
That's OK - the prophet does it for me.

What challenge are you referring to exactly? As far as I see I've answered every question you've put to me - which isn't something you can claim in return.

If you don't feel I have answered stuff - maybe it's because You Are Too Stupid to entertain an argument of subtlety beyond your Daily Mail breed of balderdash.
Dave you edit your abuse and then pretend your innocent, you made accusations about my opinions and then refuse to collaborate them. As for accusing me of the sickening act of reading the daily mail , your completely out of order. If you think im a bigot prove it? I will ask you again, do you think the prophet can be used in much the same way as in "the life of Brian" if its too difficult a simple yes or no will suffice.
 
 

 
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