Woman being stoned to death Islam Explain

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:09 am
@Alan McDougall,
To stone or not to stone, what a stupid remark. If I'm talking about capital punishment in the US i dont expect to be questioning the ethics of Chinese death penalty. Having the death penalty in China does not make capital punishment right in the US. Comparing other tragedies is not answering the basic question, why Muslim countries maintain this barbaric act or why so many muslims think its correct. Even the moderates believe a simple thrashing with a whip is the prescribed punishment. Its the mind set, the completely different approach, that is so alarming. Why should we submit to accepting it as normal in certain countries. In the 21c having to secure basic human rights is sickening situation. We may have women being mistreated in the west but its not a law applied by the state.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:20 am
@xris,
What Islam, the US and China need is their own Roy Jenkins.

Though of course, not every Briton is happy to live within the permissive society.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:40 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;135306 wrote:
What Islam, the US and China need is their own Roy Jenkins.

Though of course, not every Briton is happy to live within the permissive society.
Im sorry but you will have to elaborate.
 
polpol
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:45 am
@Alan McDougall,
Go to hell, you mystic fundamentalist jerk! Allah Akbar.....Boo!
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:52 am
@polpol,
polpol;135309 wrote:
Go to hell, you mystic fundamentalist jerk! Allah Akbar.....Boo!
I see you chose a very opposite avatar to your actual character.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:55 am
@xris,
xris;134614 wrote:
I dont have to judge Islam but I do.


I asked why are you judging Islam on the actions of Saudi Arabia?

Quote:
Sharia has no examples you can give me, so how can you make claims of its success.


I gave you an example. The Hijaz.

Quote:
I hear the same arguments for so many Utopian states that only ever have a distorted historical reference. The only sharia we see are never held up as examples to be admired but they are sharia.


What's utopian about what I'm saying? I've told you that what you consider to be shariah is not shariah. What countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran tell you is shariah is not in fact shariah. This isn't really that complicated. Why would you insist that it is shariah, when the majority will tell you it isn't?
Quote:

I can see its value for certain domestic issues but not criminal.


You're entitled to your opinion but most Muslims would disagree.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:20 am
@Dave Allen,
Who is this Roy Jenkin ?
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:32 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;135314 wrote:
Who is this Roy Jenkin ?
A democratic politician.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:39 am
@xris,
There are so many going by that name. I just voted for Ahmed M. , a promising maroccan young men. He has the crazy idea to open gay bars in our neighbourhood to get the people used to the idea that we are not living in getho any-more.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:47 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;135313 wrote:
I asked why are you judging Islam on the actions of Saudi Arabia?



I gave you an example. The Hijaz.



What's utopian about what I'm saying? I've told you that what you consider to be shariah is not shariah. What countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran tell you is shariah is not in fact shariah. This isn't really that complicated. Why would you insist that it is shariah, when the majority will tell you it isn't?


You're entitled to your opinion but most Muslims would disagree.
Im judging Islamic government by the examples we see. I judge sharia by the examples that we see. How else can I make a informed judgement.

When looking at any form of government or law you must look at the discrepancies that the extremist might use to abuse its use. When you avoid democracy and give a law that can be interpreted in the extreme you eventual end up with what we see as examples.

Iran, not exactly a democracy but what freedom it did have, has been abused by clerics who desire power more than freedom. Turkey realised its failings and came to the painful decision to maintain a secular state. You tell me who you would trust to give absolute power of law and justice to, without the benefit of being able to change them? You dream of a Utopian state made for moderate men who entrust their future into corruptible men. It will never be, Im sorry but you cant trust your fellow man.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:51 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;135314 wrote:
Who is this Roy Jenkin ?

Roy Jenkins was the labour minister who decided in the 1960s to do away with birching, hanging, legislation criminalising homosexuality or divorces, etc.

Was seen as an unpopular move at the time - he pressed on because he thought he knew best - now I think many Britons (though not all) feel that it's a generally good set of legislations. Maybe he did know best?

Point being - even in Britian of the 1960s it took an apparent maverick acting against the will of the majority to do away with things like capital punishment.

Perhaps this Ahmed M is cut from similar cloth?
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 07:16 am
@Dave Allen,
You can change the law but you cant change religious dogma. Faith and law are not good bed fellows.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 07:18 am
@xris,
xris;135323 wrote:
You can change the law but you cant change religious dogma. Faith and law are not good bed fellows.

I agree that faith and law should be kept seperate (after all, many of Jenkins' most vociferous opponents were churchmen), but I disagree that you can't change religious dogma - it happens all the time.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 07:23 am
@xris,
xris;135320 wrote:
Im judging Islamic government by the examples we see. I judge sharia by the examples that we see. How else can I make a informed judgement.


You could make an informed decision by actually studying what shariah is.

Quote:
When looking at any form of government or law you must look at the discrepancies that the extremist might use to abuse its use. When you avoid democracy and give a law that can be interpreted in the extreme you eventual end up with what we see as examples.
I agree. But you're assuming shariah=no democracy. Which doesn't surprise me because you have no real idea of what shariah is.

Quote:
Iran, not exactly a democracy but what freedom it did have, has been abused by clerics who desire power more than freedom. Turkey realised its failings and came to the painful decision to maintain a secular state.
You've mentioned Turkey again when it is obvious you've never studied Turkish history. The Turkish people never came to a decision about anything; rather they were forced to adopt the ways of the Westerner with no say in the matter. Please read up about it before you claim they did a great thing. If you think that forcing secularism onto a peasant population was a good thing, then it's not worth talking to you.

Quote:
You tell me who you would trust to give absolute power of law and justice to, without the benefit of being able to change them? You dream of a Utopian state made for moderate men who entrust their future into corruptible men. It will never be, Im sorry but you cant trust your fellow man.
This is embarrasing, although not surprising. No, I would not trust absolute power of law and justice to a people who could not be held accountable for their decisions. I like democracy, and so does Islam. I don't dream of a Utopian state where people entrust their future on corruptible men. Where would you get such a ridiculous notion from? Oh wait... Saudi Arabia?

You bang on about how the concept of shariah is nothing more than a utopian dream. But you don't even know what it is. If you look at Islamic history you can see that it did work, and it can work because it's not that complicated.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 07:42 am
@polpol,
polpol;135309 wrote:
Go to hell, you mystic fundamentalist jerk! Allah Akbar.....Boo!


Your true colors are showing hateful speech, exactly like those who put that hate into hideous action
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 07:59 am
@Dave Allen,
:perplexed: I read afew months ago about this British scientist who was forced to take hormons against his gay tendencies. He started growing breasts and was so embarressed he stopped teaching at University.

It was literally an enigma to me how this could happen... Have plans to go to Manchester soon. He should be on the English bank-notes instead of a needle manufactorer.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 08:05 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;135334 wrote:
:perplexed: I read afew months ago about this British scientist who was forced to take hormons against his gay tendencies. He started growing breasts and was so embarressed he stopped teaching at University.

It was literally an enigma to me how this could happen... Have plans to go to Manchester soon. He should be on the English bank-notes instead of a needle manufactorer.

I think you mean Alan Turing, breaker of the enigma code who probably saved many lives as a result.

He didn't just stop teaching - he killed himself.

But that was before Roy Jenkins' reforms of the relevent laws.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 08:14 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;135325 wrote:
You could make an informed decision by actually studying what shariah is.

I agree. But you're assuming shariah=no democracy. Which doesn't surprise me because you have no real idea of what shariah is.

You've mentioned Turkey again when it is obvious you've never studied Turkish history. The Turkish people never came to a decision about anything; rather they were forced to adopt the ways of the Westerner with no say in the matter. Please read up about it before you claim they did a great thing. If you think that forcing secularism onto a peasant population was a good thing, then it's not worth talking to you.

This is embarrasing, although not surprising. No, I would not trust absolute power of law and justice to a people who could not be held accountable for their decisions. I like democracy, and so does Islam. I don't dream of a Utopian state where people entrust their future on corruptible men. Where would you get such a ridiculous notion from? Oh wait... Saudi Arabia?

You bang on about how the concept of shariah is nothing more than a utopian dream. But you don't even know what it is. If you look at Islamic history you can see that it did work, and it can work because it's not that complicated.
I have listened to those who advocate its use and you appear to have differences of opinion on the actual interpretation, is that not correct? Is it not also correct that many muslims see democracy as a western evil that has no place in an Islamic context? I dont just see it in Iran or KSA but also in many other Islamic countries. It imposes its laws on all its inhabitants, not just the Muslims. We all crave for the lost greatness but the truth is always so much less than we imagine. The Sudan, Nigeria,Indonesia are all countries where it is imposed.

My time in Egypt was spent remembering not to kiss my wife, a peck on the cheek, in public for fear of arrest, while I noticed men able to kiss their male friends in the same manner, I found it extremely strange. You could say all of these are anomalies but they have a certain foundation, for its implementation.

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 09:20 AM ----------

Dave Allen;135324 wrote:
I agree that faith and law should be kept seperate (after all, many of Jenkins' most vociferous opponents were churchmen), but I disagree that you can't change religious dogma - it happens all the time.
How can you change a dogma that has been sanctified by scripture. You may convince a few moderates but the dogma remains for those who wish to use it. State and faith should be separate, something 89% of Muslims abhor. Turkey is despised because it maintains a secular state, by most muslims. It is the aim of muslims to have a sharia state every where in the world because its gods world not ours.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 08:34 am
@xris,
xris;135343 wrote:
How can you change a dogma that has been sanctified by scripture.

The 'how' varies from place to place and time to time, though I think it can be done. And not every item of religious dogma is santicified by scripture.

Even those that are can be altered though - look at the current debate amongst the Anglican community on homosexuality and church membership/leadership, which could go either way, but shows an apparent change is possible.

As an Islamic example I'd point towards sufism, which has a very different take to many matters than the fundamentalist shariah you seem to want us to take as representing the whole.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 08:42 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;135351 wrote:
The 'how' varies from place to place and time to time, though I think it can be done. And not every item of religious dogma is santicified by scripture.

Even those that are can be altered though - look at the current debate amongst the Anglican community on homosexuality and church membership/leadership, which could go either way, but shows an apparent change is possible.

As an Islamic example I'd point towards sufism, which has a very different take to many matters than the fundamentalist shariah you seem to want us to take as representing the whole.
I am not saying certain sections of any faith have not the ability to adjust their beliefs . Would you say the RC have the same ability as the Cof E ? They can change but I dont want to depend on any faiths ability to change. I want faith and state separate, so no fundamentalist with power can create the horrors we are debating.

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 09:44 AM ----------

Dave Allen;135338 wrote:
I think you mean Alan Turing, breaker of the enigma code who probably saved many lives as a result.

He didn't just stop teaching - he killed himself.

But that was before Roy Jenkins' reforms of the relevent laws.
We lost a great scientist because of our church driven phobia.
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 04/25/2024 at 01:11:36