Does anyone of you think the world can change?

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bsfree
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 11:25 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
Animals, like all living things, are a part of the common conscious experience. Human influence of the conscious experience always results in environmental changes that focus life's energy toward the human experience in the name of progress. The ponzi system we use to capitalize on life is, hopefully, only a stage in our evolvment that we will be forced to grow out of by realizing that short term self advancement profits from the whole, at the expense of the whole.
Cows are a part of the whole, our regard for them should be as the goose who lays the golden egg, just like every other living thing. Not in reverence, but in recognition of the energy that supports human consciousness, and our dependence on it for the potential of continuation.
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 04:22 pm
@bsfree,
bsfree;100838 wrote:
Animals, like all living things, are a part of the common conscious experience. Human influence of the conscious experience always results in environmental changes that focus life's energy toward the human experience in the name of progress. The ponzi system we use to capitalize on life is, hopefully, only a stage in our evolvment that we will be forced to grow out of by realizing that short term self advancement profits from the whole, at the expense of the whole.
Cows are a part of the whole, our regard for them should be as the goose who lays the golden egg, just like every other living thing. Not in reverence, but in recognition of the energy that supports human consciousness, and our dependence on it for the potential of continuation.
I agree, assuming you mean we shouldnt slaughter then, not that we shouldnt eat then.
 
bsfree
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 04:07 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Precisely, humans will eat whatever they choose, it is normal to consume in order to survive and the manner of consumption will follow the dictates of the individual's culture.
Unfortunately no one appears to be able to sustain themselves, and as a result the majority of humanity is dependent on market influences to preserve their status quo in life. I think most are aware that no political, business or religious entity exists for the enhancement of the human condition, their existence is derived from our own needs for peace, sustenance and meaning. So long as we are unable to provide for ourselves we will be at the mercy of whatever is the coruption du jour. God knows how we are to attain living on and being responsible for our own land, for without that basis no one can be truly free and will always be reliant on the influence of others, whether it be benign, or otherwise.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 04:14 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
As of now, it's not really possible, too many naive people who can get manipulated, too many ambicious and greedy ppl.

But if we can get superhumans by genemanipulation who are supersavants without naivity, then we can overcome our differences, and work for common goals.
 
bsfree
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 08:12 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,

Yes, but doesn't it disappoint and make futile your own thoughts about how we should exist? I mean if there are so many are lemmings then isn't there some validity to the "chosen few"? But who the heck says YOU are one of them? It's a dilemma to be sure, but one has to fall one side of the fence or the other, middle ground becoming too uncomfortable. It's great that we can throw these ideas around, but to what point is it if we don't ALL benefit, seems to me that some points of the accepted philosophies, democracy, communism and the almighty capitalism aren't all valid. It has to be in the balance that harmony can be found, don't you think? The balance we are in right now is biased to the material growth of corporations, guided by individuals, to the primary benefit of those individuals. It does not matter who they are, or to which philosophy we gravitate, the result will always be the one that allows our own survival. If this premise is accepted, then it should be realized that compromise is what got us to this point, and compromise is what must return us to the truth. Truth, being self explanatory, is felt rather than proven. Deviation from truth is engineered only by humans, always to the benefit of a minority. Why should we allow this? The answer is contained within the question, because we can. It is the ability to become whatever form thought can conceive of that establishes us as the primary influence on common consciousness.
I don't think much can be done to sway things toward the common good, certainly not through the formation of an alternate party. That would only expose it to the same corruptive pressures that the present ones experience. I can't help but feel autonomy is the only path to true freedom, but the change may be too drastic to readily incorporate into present reality. So, it helps to express one's feelings in this forum, even though they may never translate as immediately as one would wish.



 
Richardgrant
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 12:22 am
@bsfree,
bsfree, after a life time of study of the great sages, they are all saying the same thing, 'I and the Father are ONE, the universe is within man himself, so to change the world man must first change himself, this is the answer to the problems out there. Richard
 
Bhaktajan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 09:24 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
dear manored,

Your bias is inline with the common responses to my mention of "Cow-Protection" ---so I am not put off.

We humans have our free will 'initiative' but, there is also, God's 'initiative' ---this dual or, supplemental, ethos is the true purpose for so-called 'scientific/techinological' advancement, to have more liesure time for the 'spiritual-life' ---have we not learnt of the epic efforts required to engage in warfare? Which are the fruits of our 'peace-time' endeavors?

The irony that every 'so-called modern luxuary' only increased the "Costs-of-Living"?

The News Headlines announce the latest Civic Development . . . followed by the Next Raise in Taxes ---that must be paid by you and 'unto the multiple unseen yet unborn following generation(s) . . . and now a word from our sponsers . . . '

---------- Post added 11-02-2009 at 03:42 PM ----------

"Hubris" par-excellence, is expressed at it's apex in the way Humans consume the flesh of cows.

"False-witness" is one of the sins to avoid.

Marketing campaigns toward kids is "brainwashing" by hardworking tax payers.

Rain forest derived drugs, Beer, seafood, Hi-Carb sugary junk foods, cereal-fillers, Polysorbate 80 & her cousins Red #5 et al, curry-spicing, nutrient-bereft foodstuffs, Partially-Hydrogenated Oleos, Carbon-dioxide, Bonefide Oxygen, Water/Wine/Apple cider, aspirin, Chinese Apothecaries, etc -all have specific & famous effects upon the ingesters. No?
 
Escape phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 11:29 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
BMW;89964 wrote:
I mean, of course, if there is anyone in here that thinks that thinking is the way to discover how to redirect society to improve it.

Or if you think that philosophy's goal is just to understand what happens, not to modify it.


Karl Marx once said that "The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it"
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 12:04 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;101099 wrote:
As of now, it's not really possible, too many naive people who can get manipulated, too many ambicious and greedy ppl.

But if we can get superhumans by genemanipulation who are supersavants without naivity, then we can overcome our differences, and work for common goals.
I dont think we need super-humans, just getting rid of the megalomania would do =)

Richardgrant;101175 wrote:
bsfree, after a life time of study of the great sages, they are all saying the same thing, 'I and the Father are ONE, the universe is within man himself, so to change the world man must first change himself, this is the answer to the problems out there. Richard
The change will have a form, though.

Bhaktajan;101259 wrote:
dear manored,

Your bias is inline with the common responses to my mention of "Cow-Protection" ---so I am not put off.

We humans have our free will 'initiative' but, there is also, God's 'initiative' ---this dual or, supplemental, ethos is the true purpose for so-called 'scientific/techinological' advancement, to have more liesure time for the 'spiritual-life' ---have we not learnt of the epic efforts required to engage in warfare? Which are the fruits of our 'peace-time' endeavors?

The irony that every 'so-called modern luxuary' only increased the "Costs-of-Living"?

The News Headlines announce the latest Civic Development . . . followed by the Next Raise in Taxes ---that must be paid by you and 'unto the multiple unseen yet unborn following generation(s) . . . and now a word from our sponsers . . . '

---------- Post added 11-02-2009 at 03:42 PM ----------

"Hubris" par-excellence, is expressed at it's apex in the way Humans consume the flesh of cows.

"False-witness" is one of the sins to avoid.

Marketing campaigns toward kids is "brainwashing" by hardworking tax payers.

Rain forest derived drugs, Beer, seafood, Hi-Carb sugary junk foods, cereal-fillers, Polysorbate 80 & her cousins Red #5 et al, curry-spicing, nutrient-bereft foodstuffs, Partially-Hydrogenated Oleos, Carbon-dioxide, Bonefide Oxygen, Water/Wine/Apple cider, aspirin, Chinese Apothecaries, etc -all have specific & famous effects upon the ingesters. No?
I though we were talking about the relationship between eating cows and wars =)
 
Bhaktajan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:29 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Manored wrote to Bhaktajan:
I though we were talking about the relationship between eating cows and wars =)

Bhaktajan replies: Manored, I do not know what YOU are talking about; but if you follow along with me, we'll be on the same page. BTW, Class has already moved on to the next chapter. Please catch up or just stay in the yard and bogart that blunt.

Yeah but, Yeah but, Yeah but!
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:57 pm
@manored,
manored;101293 wrote:
I dont think we need super-humans, just getting rid of the megalomania would do =)
Please provide a more serious answer, you know very well we just can't get rid of such people, it would be the inqusiton all over again, chasing shadows. :poke-eye:
 
bsfree
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:58 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Richard, I agree absolutely that the universe is within man himself, and that the reality each inhabitant experiences is the result of their individual actions within it. The power of one can effect change, but unless that change is subscribed to by others it will not translate into a shared reality. In truth, we are one, but global interests in commerce encourage a merchant mentality to prevail and profits become paramount to survival. I'm not saying that we should not buy and sell things, I am saying that a culture based solely upon the buying and selling of assets/resources is acting in a malignant manner, and can only result in the depletion of the vitality of life, not its enhancement.
Without land of his own to sustain him man is forced to join the ranks of commerce, and whether he be an executive or a laborer he is bound to conform in order to survive. While this mode of "living" may suffice to put a roof over his head it does not give much rise to his purpose for being here, or his incentive to contemplate it, except for when things do not go so well.
We moved voluntarily from the land to the cities, thinking it an easier, more glittering way to survive. We traded our ability to feed ourselves from our own gardens for the chance we could pick from the smorgasbord of everything life can offer. For about 97% of humanity that smorgasbord takes the form of a trough.
How can this be when all the political, business and religious rhetoric shouts for equality, abundance and security?
I must pay money for my survival, for the very water I drink. Yet I was born of this Earth, is it not my birthright to eat and drink directly from its font, without hindrance? Apparently not, as my/our birthright ensures only that payment must be made before admittance to life as we know it can occur.
While the systems that distribute food, water and shelter obviously work, they do so at a price "common man" can ill afford. Philosophy and economics are aligned when they speak of harmonious existence based upon the assets at our disposal, but the assets are not within personal control without the land that all assets materialize from.
So I survive within the framework of society like everyone else, dependant on society for every morsel I consume and aware that my life would have no relevance should the food chain break down.
Dramatic? Sure, but true.
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 12:19 pm
@Bhaktajan,
Bhaktajan;101313 wrote:
Manored wrote to Bhaktajan:
I though we were talking about the relationship between eating cows and wars =)

Bhaktajan replies: Manored, I do not know what YOU are talking about; but if you follow along with me, we'll be on the same page. BTW, Class has already moved on to the next chapter. Please catch up or just stay in the yard and bogart that blunt.

Yeah but, Yeah but, Yeah but!
Well, you adressed me, then, rather than answering my post, you wrote about something else. If you arent answering my post, then dont adress me =)

HexHammer;101321 wrote:
Please provide a more serious answer, you know very well we just can't get rid of such people, it would be the inqusiton all over again, chasing shadows. :poke-eye:
Hum, I was talking about getting rid of the possibility of a megalomaniac being born through genetic enginnering =)

bsfree;101322 wrote:
Richard, I agree absolutely that the universe is within man himself, and that the reality each inhabitant experiences is the result of their individual actions within it. The power of one can effect change, but unless that change is subscribed to by others it will not translate into a shared reality. In truth, we are one, but global interests in commerce encourage a merchant mentality to prevail and profits become paramount to survival. I'm not saying that we should not buy and sell things, I am saying that a culture based solely upon the buying and selling of assets/resources is acting in a malignant manner, and can only result in the depletion of the vitality of life, not its enhancement.
Without land of his own to sustain him man is forced to join the ranks of commerce, and whether he be an executive or a laborer he is bound to conform in order to survive. While this mode of "living" may suffice to put a roof over his head it does not give much rise to his purpose for being here, or his incentive to contemplate it, except for when things do not go so well.
We moved voluntarily from the land to the cities, thinking it an easier, more glittering way to survive. We traded our ability to feed ourselves from our own gardens for the chance we could pick from the smorgasbord of everything life can offer. For about 97% of humanity that smorgasbord takes the form of a trough.
How can this be when all the political, business and religious rhetoric shouts for equality, abundance and security?
I must pay money for my survival, for the very water I drink. Yet I was born of this Earth, is it not my birthright to eat and drink directly from its font, without hindrance? Apparently not, as my/our birthright ensures only that payment must be made before admittance to life as we know it can occur.
While the systems that distribute food, water and shelter obviously work, they do so at a price "common man" can ill afford. Philosophy and economics are aligned when they speak of harmonious existence based upon the assets at our disposal, but the assets are not within personal control without the land that all assets materialize from.
So I survive within the framework of society like everyone else, dependant on society for every morsel I consume and aware that my life would have no relevance should the food chain break down.
Dramatic? Sure, but true.
The I read this I can only think "living is complicated" =)

Seriously, living alone is easy, you just have to not die, but try to manage a society where people dont die out of lack of resources or fight each other for it and you got a logistic nightmare. Especially since humans are always wanting more, be it more resources or more of thenselves. I dont think thats bad, but it does make the whole thing much more complicated. For instance maybe we have this system where we not only cant, but arent allowed to, live by ourselves because the resulting anarchy (even if we keept a central government, a rural society has more anarchy to it than an urban one) would cause massive conflicts between people and no one can think of another system that would avoid that. I mean the medieval age and much of the ancient age was like that, and as result the world was fragmented in tiny pieces waging war against each other.

And then, you add on top of that people trying to corrupt the system you are failing to build in their favor...

I think we need genetic modification or a governing super-computer to escape this. Off course, both can be corrupted in favor of someone, but super-computers can still provide us with genial solutions, and genetic modification can still help us lessen corruption. After all a thief doesnt wants there to be many other thieves =)
 
bsfree
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 06:16 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Thank you for that reply Manored, all that you say is true, or at least the form of truth we experience today. I should clarify my line of thinking, I'm pointing to this negative influence of human consciousness to establish what I feel is truth. Any foundation of true intent must have at its heart truth. It does not matter whether the truth is of a negative or positive nature, only that it be felt as truth. Truth, once felt, is never argued about, and progress towards our true nature can occur. I state the importance of returning to the land to show that in truth any decision or train of thought made by an individual will be directly influenced by by the human environment he inhabits. In that environment it is easy to sway the consumer with market forces, whether intended or not. This environment promotes maximum fluidity of thought and objectives, but not the restraint and focus necessary to feel the truth of our actions in real time.
Earth is a relatively young consciousness, my feeling is that we are maturing from juvenile to young adult, and realizing that we are one. The power of one is absolute, and can not be fully realized so long as anothers will profits on base return.
What is good for you is good for me, if my lot is made more good at the expense of making yours less good then the premise of our existence is not reaching its full potential. This cannot be seen clearly by a juvenile, but is at least understandable to an adult.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 06:44 pm
@bsfree,
bsfree;101322 wrote:
Richard, I agree absolutely that the universe is within man himself, and that the reality each inhabitant experiences is the result of their individual actions within it. The power of one can effect change, but unless that change is subscribed to by others it will not translate into a shared reality. In truth, we are one, but global interests in commerce encourage a merchant mentality to prevail and profits become paramount to survival. I'm not saying that we should not buy and sell things, I am saying that a culture based solely upon the buying and selling of assets/resources is acting in a malignant manner, and can only result in the depletion of the vitality of life, not its enhancement.
Without land of his own to sustain him man is forced to join the ranks of commerce, and whether he be an executive or a laborer he is bound to conform in order to survive. While this mode of "living" may suffice to put a roof over his head it does not give much rise to his purpose for being here, or his incentive to contemplate it, except for when things do not go so well.
We moved voluntarily from the land to the cities, thinking it an easier, more glittering way to survive. We traded our ability to feed ourselves from our own gardens for the chance we could pick from the smorgasbord of everything life can offer. For about 97% of humanity that smorgasbord takes the form of a trough.
How can this be when all the political, business and religious rhetoric shouts for equality, abundance and security?
I must pay money for my survival, for the very water I drink. Yet I was born of this Earth, is it not my birthright to eat and drink directly from its font, without hindrance? Apparently not, as my/our birthright ensures only that payment must be made before admittance to life as we know it can occur.
While the systems that distribute food, water and shelter obviously work, they do so at a price "common man" can ill afford. Philosophy and economics are aligned when they speak of harmonious existence based upon the assets at our disposal, but the assets are not within personal control without the land that all assets materialize from.
So I survive within the framework of society like everyone else, dependant on society for every morsel I consume and aware that my life would have no relevance should the food chain break down.
Dramatic? Sure, but true.


So what's your solution? Is everyone entitled to everything they want?
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 08:21 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
You may be interested in this new book out that looks at the issue of eating animals:

Eating Animals, By Jonathan Safran Foer (Little, Brown and Company, 2009)

Jonathan Safran Foer spent much of his teenage and college years oscillating between omnivore and vegetarian. But on the brink of fatherhood - facing the prospect of having to make dietary choices on a child's behalf - his casual questioning took on an urgency His quest for answers ultimately required him to visit factory farms in the middle of the night, dissect the emotional ingredients of meals from his childhood, and probe some of his most primal instincts about right and wrong. Brilliantly synthesizing philosophy, literature, science, memoir and his own detective work, Eating Animals explores the many fictions we use to justify our eating habits - from folklore to pop culture to family traditions and national myth - and how such tales can lull us into a brutal forgetting. Marked by Foer's profound moral ferocity and unvarying generosity, as well as the vibrant style and creativity that made his previous books, Everything is Illuminated and Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close, widely loved, Eating Animals is a celebration and a reckoning, a story about the stories we've told - and the stories we now need to tell.
 
bsfree
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 10:00 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Everyone is entitled to the best that is available to them. We have established a monetary class system that delivers the goods and makes possible the structures of our society. The demand on our Earth body resources has made us aware we are altering the balance of life that supports those resources. That those resources were there before human consciousness took form tells us the truth of our purpose, we are the evolving living consciousness of Earth, supported by life, just as our individual consciousness is supported by our physical body. The human body has no other purpose than to allow consciousness expression of its potential. The potential we are expressing is based on short-term gratification and security, like a juvenile discovering every toy at his disposal, pushing the boundaries of his very existence. It's not hard to accept this behavior as "normal" for our juvenile analogy, and as the juvenile gains experience from his actions his part of the greater consciousness becomes aware that what he hurts ultimately hurts him. When a group of individuals becomes aware of this truth they can begin to act in a manner that promotes the truth of our dependency upon our common body, Earth, and the true profit to be gained, through the common conscious experience.
Our group of individuals number around 7 billion, 7 billion parts of one consciousness.
I haven't a clue past my own actions how it's going to work out, but I have faith that it's supposed to.
 
Bhaktajan
 
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 09:34 am
@longknowledge,
THANK YOU - longknowledge for the above post!

The book seems appealing to be because of the description given ---reminds me of my own importance on childhood-conflicts and/or childhood-experiences as the basis for the formulation of our adult consciousness.

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
I will get it and then ---You have inspired me to compose a list of recent books that I have collected regarding this subject.
IE: "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser;
"Deconstructing Twinkie";
"The Crazy Makers" The How the Food Industry Is Destroying Our Brains and Harming Our Children by Carol Simontacchi;
"Food Pets Die For: Shocking Facts About Pet Food" by Ann Martin;
"The End of Food: How the Food Industry is Destroying Our Food Supply--And What We Can Do About It" by Thomas Pawlick;
or,
"The End of Food" by Paul Roberts;
"The Acid-Alkaline pH Diet" by Christopher Vasey

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

BTW, in regards to my postion that flesh eating 'ultimately' leads to barbaric sensibilities which leads to insrutable Irony of the first order to the tenth-power-squared:

"Cured Meats" are NOT EVER COOKED! This is great for those carnivores living where refrigeration hadn't existed for eons . . . like for example dry, desert, mountanous remote areas of the world . . .
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 12:25 pm
@bsfree,
bsfree;101671 wrote:
the truth of our purpose, we are the evolving living consciousness of Earth, supported by life, just as our individual consciousness is supported by our physical body. The human body has no other purpose than to allow consciousness expression of its potential.


I'm always a bit amused by the tacit assumption that the human species is the be all and end all on the evolutionary ladder, rather than just another step.
 
bsfree
 
Reply Thu 5 Nov, 2009 02:25 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
I agree Ticktock, it is only the fact that we exist that allows our preoccupation with self, rather than the broader view of our place in evolution. Still, that is the point we are at on the evolutionary scale, and the reason for questioning our purpose/role in life. Only human awareness can comprehend the effect of our presence on all life, and in that sense we are the be all and end all of influence on our common body.
Our concentration on the human condition and our desire for answers to God, the universe and everything reveals a need in our evolution for a sense of place in it all, preferably with responsibilty for our being going to some outside entity----God, aliens etc.
Such concentration on self prevents us seeing the wood for the trees, and we run the risk of ending up with a desert for us to evolve from, instead of the forest we were born into. Human evolvement progresses as we assume responsible dependence on our support systems. This is occurring right now with awareness of our effect on global warming, extermination of species and general maladies that exist by our hand alone.
To mature one must first accept ones true dependencies. We do not have to deconstruct society in order to effect change--------
I wish I could participate in this thread in real time, but cannot.
If my bias is of interest to anyone I have laid it out at whyweare.org
 
 

 
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