Does anyone of you think the world can change?

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Antoine Roquenti
 
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 06:59 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
IntoTheLight;108016 wrote:
I and everyone else have already changed the world simply by existing.


This changing of the world, if it is - as you say -just a part of our existence as it is, shouldn't it then and more rightly be considered as a part of the facticity of "being in the world" ? And thus apply to a part of the world which we cannot change?

EDIT: DANG! We are doomed to be free..
 
Richardgrant
 
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:29 pm
@Antoine Roquenti,
Yes I change the world to suit my beliefs daily, I do this by first imagining that which I choose to experience, I then give thought to these imaginings which gives form to the motion of my thoughts. What I see out there I make myself believe its real, and in so doing suffer the results. Richard
 
bsfree
 
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 02:53 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Here's a quote that may be appropriate to these thoughts.
No, grasshopper, evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself. - Kung Fu
The world is as we know it is created by our thoughts, or more truthfully by our support of the powers that create the policies we all live by.
The only change we can effect is in our personal relationship with Earth, I'm afraid I don't see much hope for the majority of humankind who rely on the pyramid house of card systems that support their lives.
Wish it were different, and one day soon it will be, it just didn't need to be this hard.
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 08:49 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
BMW;89964 wrote:
I mean, of course, if there is anyone in here that thinks that thinking is the way to discover how to redirect society to improve it.

Or if you think that philosophy's goal is just to understand what happens, not to modify it.


I think man is motivated by survival and unless and until your personal survival is threatened will a person make any meaningful change in their circumstances.

So if you want to change the world you must first make people believe that their personal survival is on the line.

This could also be the survival of your children or loved ones being threatened.
 
Richardgrant
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 02:35 pm
@itsalljustbs,
itsalljustbs;137759 wrote:
I think man is motivated by survival and unless and until your personal survival is threatened will a person make any meaningful change in their circumstances.

So if you want to change the world you must first make people believe that their personal survival is on the line.

This could also be the survival of your children or loved ones being threatened.


The world is within man himself, so to change the world one must change the world within, this changes my perception (reflection). Our imagination is the most powerful force in creation. The mistake we make is that what we perceive out there, we make ourselves believe what we see is real.
To me what I see out there is a clear reflection of my consciousness. Richard
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 04:50 pm
@Richardgrant,
Richardgrant;137989 wrote:
The world is within man himself, so to change the world one must change the world within, this changes my perception (reflection). Our imagination is the most powerful force in creation. The mistake we make is that what we perceive out there, we make ourselves believe what we see is real.
To me what I see out there is a clear reflection of my consciousness. Richard


Many Jewish concentration camp prisoners imagined or believed the Nazi's would never try to kill all the Jews.

They walked right into those poison gas showers still believing and imagining it could not be true.

Had they reacted to their own survival instinct maybe a few more would have survived or at least died knowing they had tried.

The world is real my friend!
 
awareness
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 05:36 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
All thinking and thought is directly connected to all other thinking and thought. So, as the world thinks, so the world goes. All thinking automatically changes the world whether you want it to or not. it's been proven by an experiment. See the movie "what the bleep do we know"
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 07:17 pm
@awareness,
awareness;138437 wrote:
All thinking and thought is directly connected to all other thinking and thought. So, as the world thinks, so the world goes. All thinking automatically changes the world whether you want it to or not. it's been proven by an experiment. See the movie "what the bleep do we know"


You are probably referring to the Hundredth monkey principle or universal consciousness ?

The Hundredth Monkey

I think saying it is "proven" is incorrect but if you have a link to any scientific data I would be interested in seeing it.

There is a form of of universal consciousness but it is only in relation to our interactions with other people.

When you interact with another person in a meaningful way you have effected their perceptions and therefore their thinking and any interactions they have with others after that point will be a combination of all the interactions that preceded it.

So our thinking is actually a conglomerate of every interaction we have ever had and so is everyone else that has ever interacted with anyone we have interacted with or they interacted with and so on and so on...

Which is why we must be careful in our interactions as a small seed can grow into a huge mushroom- boom!
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2010 10:53 am
@itsalljustbs,
itsalljustbs;137759 wrote:
I think man is motivated by survival and unless and until your personal survival is threatened will a person make any meaningful change in their circumstances.

So if you want to change the world you must first make people believe that their personal survival is on the line.

This could also be the survival of your children or loved ones being threatened.
I disagree, while it is true that all our desires are ultimately related to our own survival, saying that all we want is to survive would be an oversimplification. Man isnt that rational =)

itsalljustbs;138473 wrote:
You are probably referring to the Hundredth monkey principle or universal consciousness ?

The Hundredth Monkey
Nope, thats not whats in the movie. The movie shows an experiment with randow number generators, where scientists told people to try to influence the results with their minds. It worked, that is, there were significant abnormalities in the results, although, off course, it can always be an incredible coincidence.

I dont have any links, but search the movie on youtube to watch it. All parts are there. Its quite interesting.
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2010 11:06 am
@manored,
manored;139339 wrote:
I disagree, while it is true that all our desires are ultimately related to our own survival, saying that all we want is to survive would be an oversimplification. Man isnt that rational =)

You are distorting what I said:

"I think man is motivated by survival and unless and until your personal survival is threatened will a person make any meaningful change in their circumstances.

So if you want to change the world you must first make people believe that their personal survival is on the line.

This could also be the survival of your children or loved ones being threatened."

I did not say that all a person wants is to survive. I said the only way a person makes any meaningful change in their circumstances is when their survival or the survival of their children or loved ones is threatened.

People do all kinds of absurd things not based on survival but those are not meant to make any meaningful change in their circumstances.

Give me any example of a human action that changes their circumstances and I will show you how it was related to their survival.

As to your video I could find nothing on any experiment but if you want to post the link I will look at it and give an opinion.
 
north
 
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2010 10:57 pm
@itsalljustbs,
the world can change if we use our knowledge and understanding to see where the world is now and why , and then use this to see where the world is headed
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 08:52 am
@north,
north;139470 wrote:
the world can change if we use our knowledge and understanding to see where the world is now and why , and then use this to see where the world is headed


Thought without action and personal responsibility is useless.

We all know we are destroying our earth with pollution and over consumption of our resources but how many people do you know take an active responsibility to reduce their waste and consumption ?

It is only when your survival is threatened with higher prices for oil, power, food, and water that people will make any significant changes.
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 12:02 pm
@itsalljustbs,
itsalljustbs;139345 wrote:

I did not say that all a person wants is to survive. I said the only way a person makes any meaningful change in their circumstances is when their survival or the survival of their children or loved ones is threatened.
Hum, it seens I misunderstood you. I will have to ask you what you mean with "circumstances" then.

itsalljustbs;139345 wrote:

As to your video I could find nothing on any experiment but if you want to post the link I will look at it and give an opinion.
This is a link to the first part of the movie:
YouTube - what the bleep do we know (part 1)

I dont remember on what part the experiment is mentioned.

itsalljustbs;139572 wrote:
Thought without action and personal responsibility is useless.
But action and personal responsibility are useless without thought =)

Right now in the world we know a lot about what is wrong, but very little about how to solve it.
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 03:16 pm
@manored,
The first part of this video stated exactly what I have been stating that our thoughts and our meaning of life is a direct result of our experiences and perceptions.

It also states that religion and materialism are not reality and work against personal responsibility which is what I have said.

Since there are 12 parts to the video it will take me awhile to watch it all but I will respond to each part as I watch it.

" I will have to ask you what you mean with "circumstances" then."

Circumstances is your condition in life and is the way your life is in relation to your environment.

People that feel no need to improve their circumstances due to a threat to their survival will generally maintain their circumstances as they are.

When people are in bad circumstances that means their survival is threatened and they will be motivated to change their circumstances.

Thought in and of itself can not change anything and only when thought is coupled with action of some sort does it become useful.

Actions can be thoughtless in the sense that you snatch a child from walking in front of a car without thinking about it.

That is the survival instinct!

Had you stopped to think about it the child would be dead.

So some could argue that a person thought about what they would do in that circumstance before they did it and that in some way prepared them for action.

That is the basis for my thesis on the power of positive self imagery.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 05:30 PM ----------

Right now in the world we know a lot about what is wrong, but very little about how to solve it.[/QUOTE wrote:


I disagree,

I believe we completely know how to solve our own problems but feel powerless and incapable of solving them because we have been taught to rely on others to make decisions for us and not resist or rebel against those in authority!

Give me any example of a problem in your life that you do not already know how to solve ?

The solution may not be easy, may require sacrifice, may require acceptance, may require heroic efforts but any problem is solvable!

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 06:24 PM ----------

Part two of "what the bleep do we know" is about perceptions and I disagree with their perception that the Indians that first seen Christopher Cs. ships could not see them.

The Indians were not children without any experiences and perceptions from which to build an understanding.

They had seen things floating in the water, they probably had canoes, and so they would have been able to see the ships and at least identify something large floating object in the water but may not understand what it was until it got close enough to identify people on board. Much the same as if you seen an object floating in the sky that you have never seen before. You would not know what it is but you would see it because you have seen things floating in the sky before like birds etc..

The idea of innocence is built around the concept that children do not posses enough experiences to form a perception or understanding of the world around them.

We are influenced by our perceptions and experiences everyday and that is why I believe we need to continually challenge ourselves with new experiences and challenge our perceptions of old experiences if we want to continue to grow in our understanding.

The idea presented that maybe we are sitting in a chair on a hologram deck just observing our life is ridiculous to me and is just another way to avoid action and personal responsibility for one's life.

The last part of the video discusses how molecules are made up and if their existence is really just a matter of our willing them to be.

Why do molecules hold a specific shape like a chair or do they hold that shape only because we will them to ?

Well, since we can leave a room and someone who has never seen the chair can enter and see the chair and sit in it it can not be our personal will that is forming the molecules into a chair.

Since our bodies are made up of molecules and all objects of this world are made up of the same molecules are all our molecules from the same source ?

If we and all objects are made up of the same molecules does that mean all objects have the same molecular memory that we do ?

This would be a good argument for the existence of God as the source and our spirit as the molecular memory.

Without our physical bodies we would have no ability to act on our thoughts. People in comas that paralyze their bodies that come to and are unable to move have expressed the hopelessness and helplessness that comes from not having the ability to do any thing except think.

The last pert of the video talks about why we are not able to effect the past as we do the future and is a discussion of the reality of time.

I do believe we can effect the past in so far as the past is simply our perceptions of our interactions stored in our mind.

We can effect, change, erase, and alter those stored perceptions when we honestly examine those perceptions and see them for what they are and take responsibility for each one.

When you do that you do change the past and the present and the future as all of those events in time are interrelated.

How you responded in the past to some situation will be the way you respond in the present and the future unless you examine and challenge your past perceptions.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 07:14 PM ----------

Part 3 of the video gets into the idea that physical objects do not actually exist and are actually a just energy held together by as yet some undetermined power, thought, or will.

Again, this is a good argument for the existence of God as the energy, power, or will that binds molecules into existence.

The under-theme of this video would have you believe you can alter your reality if you could just see that everything physical does not actually exist which I disagree with or that time does not exist and you can step backwards or forwards or sideways in time if you believed it.

Since our bodies are made up of molecules and the interaction of our molecules with all other molecules has known effects our ability to change the effect of our molecules or those of any other object are limited by our physical nature.

Our physical nature is a reality that must be accepted and anyone that would like to prove they can overcome their physical nature by traveling through time or be in two places at the same time is welcome to try and prove me wrong!
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:05 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Part 4 of this video describes an experiment in which 4000 people from around the world went to Washington Dc and asked to meditate to reduce violent crime by 25%

First I would say why did they pick 25% and not 100% which would have been a much more significant and measurable amount ?

Why did they have to go TO Washington to perform the experiment as they could meditate anywhere right ?

And why did the DC police department take on the cause and publicize the experiment before and while it was taking place ?

All of these are ACTIONS that had to take place for the thoughts to take have any effect on the circumstances.

These kinds of experiments have been shown to produce false results because they are publicized and acted upon by the media and outside forces like police departments that changes the outcome.

Don't get me wrong, meditation to challenge your own perceptions and come to terms with your reality is a wonderful thing but thinking people can change the world by just meditating is a load of crap.

Thought or meditation without action and personal responsibility is worthless.

The bigger effect that experiment probably had was on the people meditating and all those that were not involved in the experiment that heard about it and chose to also meditate for peace.

By doing that they examined their own perceptions and past experiences and possibly resolved to take responsibility for their own lives and not be a part of or create violent situations- they took action on their thoughts.

The part of this video I disagree with is the idea that if you did away with all negative thinking and false perceptions you could accomplish things like walking on water.

Here is another example of science trying to explain religious principles of purity of thought and complete innocence.

Quantum physics is placing itself in the position of just another religion with a lot of special effects and conjecture on physical existence without any proof. Those scientists promoting quantum physics have placed themselves in positions of authority and want to define the rules or morals of the science and use it as a way to make themselves famous or rich.

That is what most religions do right ?

Positive thinking, introspection, meditation, forgiveness, repentance, etc. are all the same thing with a different name and all of them are meaningless without action.

The scene in the subway about the water in the lake being changed by one persons thoughts is quite funny. Go stare at a glass of water today and tell it you hate it or love it and see if it changes ?

Quantum physics grasps the basics of the meaning of life but strays into the realm of the scientific and the religious dogma.

They understand that individuals can and do effect everything around them and the world but they ignore the necessity of action, reaction, and interaction.

Thought, meditation, introspection, forgiveness, repentance are all actions and work only through action.

Thanks for the video links and I will watch the rest another time!
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:49 am
@itsalljustbs,
itsalljustbs;139692 wrote:

Actions can be thoughtless in the sense that you snatch a child from walking in front of a car without thinking about it.

That is the survival instinct!

Had you stopped to think about it the child would be dead.

So some could argue that a person thought about what they would do in that circumstance before they did it and that in some way prepared them for action.

That is the basis for my thesis on the power of positive self imagery.
I disagree, it may have been a quick reaction, but it does not mean no thinking went on it. Merely there wasnt enough time to think properly or reconsider.

itsalljustbs;139692 wrote:

The solution may not be easy, may require sacrifice, may require acceptance, may require heroic efforts but any problem is solvable!
But if you disconsider all of those as relevant, then thinking of a solution will be very easy, and actually doing it will be very hard. To stop poluting the planet all we have to do is tell all industries to stop and everyone to stop throwing things out, but, as you can imagine, this would create an enormous load of trouble. Things as how much energy or patience we have to deal with problems DO matter, we arent endless pits of strengh and will.


itsalljustbs;139692 wrote:

The idea presented that maybe we are sitting in a chair on a hologram deck just observing our life is ridiculous to me and is just another way to avoid action and personal responsibility for one's life.
But its not impossible, is it? =)

that depends of whenever you should live this life as if it was real since you cant escape the ilusion anyway, or you should just sit back because nothing of this is real.

itsalljustbs;139692 wrote:


The under-theme of this video would have you believe you can alter your reality if you could just see that everything physical does not actually exist which I disagree with or that time does not exist and you can step backwards or forwards or sideways in time if you believed it.

Since our bodies are made up of molecules and the interaction of our molecules with all other molecules has known effects our ability to change the effect of our molecules or those of any other object are limited by our physical nature.

Our physical nature is a reality that must be accepted and anyone that would like to prove they can overcome their physical nature by traveling through time or be in two places at the same time is welcome to try and prove me wrong!
While its true that we do not have god-like powers, even if by influencing our actions, positive thinking does have an influence, and thinking in favor of a goal does help it get accomplished.

I think this though X action discussion is meaningless. If you sit in a chair and try to change the world by thinking, isnt than an action? Yes. Though and action are too fundamentally interlinked to decide if one is more important.

itsalljustbs;139750 wrote:
Part 4 of this video describes an experiment in which 4000 people from around the world went to Washington Dc and asked to meditate to reduce violent crime by 25%

First I would say why did they pick 25% and not 100% which would have been a much more significant and measurable amount ?

Why did they have to go TO Washington to perform the experiment as they could meditate anywhere right ?

And why did the DC police department take on the cause and publicize the experiment before and while it was taking place ?

All of these are ACTIONS that had to take place for the thoughts to take have any effect on the circumstances.
thoughts only manifest through actions. If they are not magical, but they do always influence the world indirectly, then I think we can indeed say what we are thinking is really important, after all.

itsalljustbs;139750 wrote:

The part of this video I disagree with is the idea that if you did away with all negative thinking and false perceptions you could accomplish things like walking on water.
I disagree as well, because such a being wouldnt be human =)

itsalljustbs;139750 wrote:

The scene in the subway about the water in the lake being changed by one persons thoughts is quite funny. Go stare at a glass of water today and tell it you hate it or love it and see if it changes ?
It would change on my mind.
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:10 am
@manored,
Monored said:

"While its true that we do not have god-like powers, even if by influencing our actions, positive thinking does have an influence, and thinking in favor of a goal does help it get accomplished.

I think this though X action discussion is meaningless. If you sit in a chair and try to change the world by thinking, isnt than an action? Yes. Though and action are too fundamentally interlinked to decide if one is more important."

I think we are in agreement on this:

Thought and action are interlinked though I do believe some actions are thoughtless in so much as your neurons to react without active thought much like you do when you blink or your heart takes a beat.

You do not think about these actions and you could not stop them by active thought though some yogi's would disagree.

In fact it is the basis of my thesis and book on positive self imagery and I believe focused thinking and mental practice can improve future actions.

I was a college racquetball and swimming coach and had all my students do positive imagery and mental practice before tournaments.

They would focus and see themselves hitting the ball or swimming a stroke perfectly and winning the competition or beating their own personal best.

I documented the progress and seen a 25-75% improvement in every person. Those with lower skills improved more than those with advanced skills.

I believe this same principles can be applied to any activity a person does in life and could even be used in the healing process of the body.

Our potential is limited by our experiences and perceptions so how can a person achieve success until they have experienced success or perceived success ?

Children copy the actions of their parents or role models and if those people are only minimaly succesful that is all the child will have as a goal to work towards.

Being able to see in your mind beyond what you have already experienced requires a strong imagination and the ability to challenge your own perceptions of what you are capable of.

Great mathematicians, scientists, and athletes are able to see beyond there own experiences to open doors to a future that most people have not learned to do.

They create new possibilities for themselves and expand the experiences of others by progressing past what has already been done.

That can only happen when a person is able to challenge their own perceptions and not allow others negativity to influence their ability to see a different possibility.

But seeing the possibilities is not enough and actions must be practiced first in the mind and then in our physical world to obtain the desired results.

This same principle can be applied to changing the world to be a "better" place when people can reject the prevalent attitude and media hyped vision of what society and mankind should be and mentally see and practice the life they wish to achieve.

Once people have accomplished that change they will set in motion a wave of people that can also now see these possibilities!
 
bsfree
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:59 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
Itsalljustbs said: "But seeing the possibilities is not enough and actions must be practiced first in the mind and then in our physical world to obtain the desired results.
This same principle can be applied to changing the world to be a "better" place when people can reject the prevalent attitude and media hyped vision of what society and mankind should be and mentally see and practice the life they wish to achieve.
Once people have accomplished that change they will set in motion a wave of people that can also now see these possibilities!"

I agree completely. I feel we are on a cusp of evolving consciousness (aren't we always?) that will propel humankind into a new era of social awareness that will reject the notion of money as the only means of survival and distribution of assets.
Without the third party influence of money, and the concentrated power of its influence, we will begin to percieve each other as human entities, rather than human extensions of monetary power source.
The logistics of evolving past the confines of a monetary system are daunting, of that there is no doubt, but evolve we must if we are to establish a status quo that is rooted in the Earth itself, and all the assets of life that eminate from her.
Can the world change? Of course it can!
Where will the change begin? It will begin with you!
 
itsalljustbs
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:20 pm
@bsfree,
bsfree;139947 wrote:
Itsalljustbs said: "But seeing the possibilities is not enough and actions must be practiced first in the mind and then in our physical world to obtain the desired results.
This same principle can be applied to changing the world to be a "better" place when people can reject the prevalent attitude and media hyped vision of what society and mankind should be and mentally see and practice the life they wish to achieve.
Once people have accomplished that change they will set in motion a wave of people that can also now see these possibilities!"

I agree completely. I feel we are on a cusp of evolving consciousness (aren't we always?) that will propel humankind into a new era of social awareness that will reject the notion of money as the only means of survival and distribution of assets.
Without the third party influence of money, and the concentrated power of its influence, we will begin to percieve each other as human entities, rather than human extensions of monetary power source.
The logistics of evolving past the confines of a monetary system are daunting, of that there is no doubt, but evolve we must if we are to establish a status quo that is rooted in the Earth itself, and all the assets of life that eminate from her.
Can the world change? Of course it can!
Where will the change begin? It will begin with you!


Our society is designed by the rich to benefit the rich and supported by the majority (regular people) out of fear and complacency and only by keeping the majority tied to the slavery of the present economic system can the 1% of society that are rich maintain their power.

To reject that system and reverse that imbalance of power a person must break all ties to society that support the present economic system.

I have accomplished some of that by building my own small cabin so I do not have house payments, operating my own business instead of working for other people, growing and raising my own food so I have to buy very little, and bartering instead of using cash for many things.

I still have to pay property taxes and buy some things I can not produce but I have found some freedom and through my efforts I have helped many others to do the same thing.

I am hopeful that this will lead to a revolution of people that have a new vision of what wealth and happiness and freedom really means.

When enough people are able to do this then they will have the support to gain positions in seats of authority like county and city councils, mayors, state representatives, and eventually the presidency.

With that power I hope laws and codes will change to benefit those that want to live a simple life free from the economic and political pressure to conform.

It is a big dream but all revolutions in history started with just a few dreamers!
 
bsfree
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:43 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Itsalljustbs, thank you so much for illustrating your lifestyle, it is indeed a pleasure to hear your words and an even greater pleasure to hear of your actions.
I am living in a similar fashion on my boat, can't grow veg or raise chickens but there's fish out there and seaweed too. I've justed aquired a solar oven that I hope will reduce fuel dependency, and a wind generator for electricity.
Baby steps, maybe, but as you say, the revolution's got to start somewhere.
Bon Chance!
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.02 seconds on 05/21/2024 at 07:25:58