The problem with perspectivism

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Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 12:54 am
@hue-man,
Quote:
So again, if you mean "opinion" as in "belief" and "fact" meaning "true proposition" then certainly beliefs can also be true propositions. We also call that knowledge (if justified).


I thought an opinion was believed? Can one have an opinion they don't believe?

I thought a fact was a true proposition? Can a fact be a false proposition?
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:00 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72019 wrote:
I thought an opinion was believed? Can one have an opinion they don't believe?

I thought a fact was a true proposition? Can a fact be a false proposition?


Opinions are beliefs. Not all beliefs are opinions. Some beliefs are true or false based on the facts. The belief that the Statue of Liberty is 900 feet tall is true or false based on the actual height of the statue or facts. Facts are the way things are. Not the verbal expression of the way things are but the actual way things are. Don't mistake the representation for what is being represented. It comes from the Latin factum meaning an "event or occurrence". Opinions are not based on facts. Opinions express emotion. There is no corresponding fact to test against the claim "strawberry is the best flavor of ice cream".
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:09 am
@hue-man,
Satan wrote:
Opinions are not based on facts


If a doctor gives an informed opinion that a patient has cancer, he or she is most likely basing this opinion on fact. Perhaps the fact that most patients he or she has taken care of with this many rebellious cells have had cancer.

Quote:
There is no corresponding fact to test against the claim "strawberry is the best flavor of ice cream".


Not all opinions are bound by subjective evaluations with no correlation to "true" or "false" propositions. Many opinions do have correlation with "true" or "false" propositions.

"It is my opinion that the house is going to collapse". If I know that dozens of houses have collapsed in the past in the same condition, I am basing my opinion on fact. If the house happens to collapse, wouldn't you say my opinion was true? You could then follow by saying my opinion turned out to be fact, no?
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:12 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72023 wrote:
If a doctor gives an informed opinion that a patient has cancer, he or she is most likely basing this opinion on fact.



Not all opinions are bound by subjective evaluations with no correlation to "true" or "false" propositions. Many opinions do have correlation with "true" or "false" propositions.

"It is my opinion that the house is going to collapse". If I know that dozens of houses have collapsed in the past in the same condition, I am basing my opinion of fact. If the house happens to collapse, wouldn't you say my opinion was true? You could then follow by saying my opinion turned out to fact, no?


You're just repeating what's already been said, actually.

These are common expressions. Words have many different usages. Sometimes we say things like "get a second opinion" but we could also say "get a second belief about the state of your health" and mean the exact same thing. This doesn't contradict what I'm saying, however.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:14 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72024 wrote:
You're just repeating what's already been said, actually.

These are common expressions. Words have many different usages. Sometimes we say things like "get a second opinion" but we could also say "get a second belief about the state of your health" and mean the exact same thing. This doesn't contradict what I'm saying, however.


You say opinions cannot be based on facts.

I say opinions can be based on facts.

I'm clearly contradicting you.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:17 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72025 wrote:
You say opinions cannot be based on facts.

I say opinions can be based on facts.

I'm clearly contradicting you.


You're using a different meaning of the word.

Logical Fallacy: Ambiguity
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:22 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72026 wrote:
You're using a different meaning of the word.

Logical Fallacy: Ambiguity


Because a great majority of people use "opinion" based on fact, it was quite misleading what you stated.

And since any argument against your misleading posts you regard to be "Ambiguity" (much appreciate the link), it appears we're done.

Thanks for your time.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:26 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72027 wrote:
And since any argument against your misleading posts you regard to be "Ambiguity" (much appreciate the link), it appears we're done.


In the future, you can avoid that by defining your terms clearly like I have already done in this thread.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:34 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72028 wrote:
In the future, you can avoid that by defining your terms clearly like I have already done in this thread.


Oh, really? Which term did I not define clearly enough for you?
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:41 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72029 wrote:
Oh, really? Which term did I not define clearly enough for you?


I think you know which term. You claimed that you were contradicting me when we were using two different definitions. Then you claimed I was being misleading even though I've already defined my terms but you just didn't bother to read the thread.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:50 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72030 wrote:
I think you know which term. You claimed that you were contradicting me when we were using two different definitions. Then you claimed I was being misleading even though I've already defined my terms but you just didn't bother to read the thread.


But it wasn't that I didn't define my term, I certainly did. And I understood how you defined your term. I simply was disagreeing with the definition you provided. I found it to be too stringent.

You can define "pig" as a mammal with 10 legs, and even though you defined your term, I can certainly disagree with you.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 02:05 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72032 wrote:
But it wasn't that I didn't define my term, I certainly did. And I understood how you defined your term. I simply was disagreeing with the definition you provided. I found it to be too stringent.

You can define "pig" as a mammal with 10 legs, and even though you defined your term, I can certainly disagree with you.


You're giving an absurd example that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. We've already established that there are words that can have more than one common meaning. There's no need to disagree about which is the "real" definition. That's ridiculous. The word "dark" can refer to both color and mood. Don't you agree?
 
nameless
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 05:43 am
@hue-man,
Perhaps a synthesis?
Perhaps the complete Universe ('Reality') is the sum-total of all Perspectives?
If one sees 10 legged pigs, their perception is a feature of the complete notion of a pig.
Every Conscious Perspective of the pig is correct, but incomplete; limitation being definitionally inherent in Perspective.
As the fellow said, "we are the sum total of everyone we have ever met!"
'Our' particular and unique Perspective is but one inherent feature of/in the complete Universe.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 05:48 am
@nameless,
nameless;72064 wrote:
Perhaps a synthesis?
Perhaps the complete Universe ('Reality') is the sum-total of all Perspectives?
If one sees 10 legged pigs, their perception is a feature of the complete notion of a pig.
Every Conscious Perspective of the pig is correct, but incomplete; limitation being definitionally inherent in Perspective.
As the fellow said, "we are the sum total of everyone we have ever met!"
'Our' particular and unique Perspective is but one inherent feature of/in the complete Universe.


I doubt very much that Reality is the sum total of perspectives, since Reality existed way before there were people, and, therefore, perspectives.
 
nameless
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:04 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72065 wrote:
I doubt very much that Reality is the sum total of perspectives, since Reality existed way before there were people, and, therefore, perspectives.

Really? Are people/humans the only Conscious Perspectives in the Universe?
 
jgweed
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:38 am
@hue-man,
What we can know about reality might be the sum total of perspectives, or we might want (although why I can't understand) to call reality the sum total of perspectives, but it doesn't seem that reality can be, at least in an ontological sense, the sum total.

It may be, for example, that reality so-called, cannot be completely exhausted by even the sum of actual perspectives just as an physical event cannot be completely summed by the many different physical attempts to witness it.

And if one possible perspective was called "language"- - -well, what then?
Even more confusing would be to call reality of sum total of the words (or phrases, etc.) used to describe it.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:42 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;72115 wrote:
Even more confusing would be to call reality of sum total of the words (or phrases, etc.) used to describe it.


Hi,

Yes. I quite agree with your ideas. In particular, in regards to words, there are many feelings and ideas that I get that I cannot describe in words - either my own language English, or otherwise, though sometimes I resort to foreign languages such as Qi.

Language seems to be always incomplete since as humans create something new, either material or in their minds, they invent new words. The number of colors that we have in our language continues to increase over the ages.

Rich
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 11:52 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72034 wrote:
You're giving an absurd example that doesn't reflect the reality of the situation. We've already established that there are words that can have more than one common meaning. There's no need to disagree about which is the "real" definition. That's ridiculous. The word "dark" can refer to both color and mood. Don't you agree?


I do agree, and I would acknowledge the different uses of "dark". I wouldn't say, "Dark can only be used in reference to color". I also wouldn't say, if you disagreed, that you committed a logical fallacy.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 11:56 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72135 wrote:
I do agree, and I would acknowledge the different uses of "dark". I wouldn't say, "Dark can only be used in reference to color". I also wouldn't say, if you disagreed, that you committed a logical fallacy.


Since I have said neither of those things, I fail to see your point.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 01:50 pm
@hue-man,
When I read this:

Satan wrote:
Opinions are not based on facts


I received that impression. Because, as noted, opinions can be based on fact. Had you said, "Some opinions are not based on facts", I would have agreed. Is this what you meant?

And we can relate your "dark" analogy. Say I said, "Dark has no reference to color". Certainly you could say that I was wrong, as it appears the statement is overarching (In other words, it appears I'm speaking about all things dark). And, as you mentioned, dark can be in reference to color and emotion, among other things.
 
 

 
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