The problem with perspectivism

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

richrf
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 04:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;71505 wrote:
What puzzles me is why you think this is something to be admired rather than something to be avoided.


I don't admire it. I don't avoid it. I just observe it.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 05:01 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71507 wrote:
I don't admire it. I don't avoid it. I just observe it.

Rich


Yes, I know. You are a camera. But, the fact is that when I observe vacuity and confusion, I tend to deplore it. It has no place in philosophy. It is like tolerating slums.
 
Violent Meme
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 06:20 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71488 wrote:
Equality can be interpreted in many ways. One way would be the mathematical identical. But one can also say that one perspective is as valid as another, and therefore no one should take precedence over another.

Wikipedia has a different take:

"Perspectivism is the philosophical view developed by Friedrich Nietzscheideations take place from particular perspectives. This means that there are many possible conceptual schemes, or perspectives which determine any possible judgment of truth or value that we may make; this implies that no way of seeing the world can be taken as definitively "true", but does that all not necessarily propose that all perspectives are equally valid."

So it all depends upon how one interprets the notion of Perspectivism, which of course is the heart of the idea.

Rich

Here is the contradiction though:

I do not believe that *MY* Perspective is Equal to Anything to begin with.

(How could it be?)

If my belief is "true" (which my statement undeniably-proves itself as it stands) then my Perspective must be evaluated by some (undescribed) means of judgment. And then, who is to say that Perspectives, whatever they truly-are, should be taken, accepted, observed, judged, etc. in some definable way? This train-of-thought steps backward from Perspectivism and smashes it apart. And my own "perspective" refutes itself from the ideology. Unless I presuppose some kind of "Equality" (which I do not), then Perspectivism-itself becomes an Impossibility.

:perplexed:
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 07:27 pm
@Violent Meme,
Violent Meme;71538 wrote:
Here is the contradiction though:

I do not believe that *MY* Perspective is Equal to Anything to begin with.

(How could it be?)

If my belief is "true" (which my statement undeniably-proves itself as it stands) then my Perspective must be evaluated by some (undescribed) means of judgment. And then, who is to say that Perspectives, whatever they truly-are, should be taken, accepted, observed, judged, etc. in some definable way? This train-of-thought steps backward from Perspectivism and smashes it apart. And my own "perspective" refutes itself from the ideology. Unless I presuppose some kind of "Equality" (which I do not), then Perspectivism-itself becomes an Impossibility.

:perplexed:


Hi,

But someone can have a different perspective. Someone can believe that their belief is a guesstimate, not necessarily true. It does not have to be judged in any way, just possibly considered and taken for what it is worth. Truth does not have to be a goal, unless one makes it so. Simple observation and learning may be enough for some.

Rich

---------- Post added at 08:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------

kennethamy;71527 wrote:
Yes, I know. You are a camera. But, the fact is that when I observe vacuity and confusion, I tend to deplore it. It has no place in philosophy. It is like tolerating slums.


Nope. A camera doesn't learn. I learn and what's more I enjoy learning for the simple pleasure of learning. But that is me.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 07:36 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71551 wrote:
Hi,

But someone can have a different perspective. Someone can believe that their belief is a guesstimate, not necessarily true. I does not have to be judged in any way, just possibly considered and taken for what it is worth. Truth does not have to be a goal, unless one makes it so. Simple observation and learning may be enough for some.

Rich

---------- Post added at 08:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 PM ----------




Rich


Necessarily, you cannot believe anything without believing it is true. However, you can believe something without believing it is necessarily true.
And, you cannot learn something without learning that it is true, for, if it is false, you have not learned it. So, necessarily, if you believe you have learned something, then necessarily, you believe that it is true. Surely you see that. You keep dodging truth, but without avail. It is there when you least expect it; in the very meaning of what you say. The radical skeptic always trips over his own feet.
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 08:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;71558 wrote:
Necessarily, you cannot believe anything without believing it is true.

However, you can believe something without believing it is necessarily true.
And, you cannot learn something without learning that it is true, for, if it is false, you have not learned it. So, necessarily, if you believe you have learned something, then necessarily, you believe that it is true. Surely you see that. You keep dodging truth, but without avail. It is there when you least expect it; in the very meaning of what you say. The radical skeptic always trips over his own feet.


I may believe something knowing full well that I am probably wrong (happens to me throughout the day), and I learn from my mistakes.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 08:37 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71461 wrote:
Sure. You can discuss, research, observe, ponder it. Do whatever you want. And then you can choose to either maintain your perspective, or change perspective. Perspectives can change. That is the beauty of perspectives.

What we have here is a very brief description of Free Will and Subjectivity - i.e. the ability to observe, change direction, and form a new idea.

Rich


And how about the perspective of the chap who thinks he is Louis the 16th? You find that all right, since he can discuss, research, observe, or ponder, the glorious court of Versailles (until he is beheaded, of course. But the pleasure of being with Marie Antoinette. Could you beat it?)

---------- Post added at 10:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 PM ----------

richrf;71587 wrote:
I may believe something knowing full well that I am probably wrong (happens to me throughout the day), and I learn from my mistakes.

Rich


How do you believe it is true, when you know it is wrong? I never, of course, used the term, "probably wrong". I said, "false". So what you said has nothing to do with what I said. I said you cannot believe something is true, and believe it is false. And that is clearly so. In any case, I suppose it is possible to believe something, and believe it is probably false if you are confused, or suffering from multiple personality. Or, of course, if you believe something, but refuse to accept it.
 
Violent Meme
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 08:49 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71551 wrote:
Hi,

But someone can have a different perspective. Someone can believe that their belief is a guesstimate, not necessarily true. I does not have to be judged in any way, just possibly considered and taken for what it is worth. Truth does not have to be a goal, unless one makes it so. Simple observation and learning may be enough for some.

Rich

Hi Rich,

I think you might have missed my point so allow me to rephrase it to you.

If I do not believe *MY* perspective is Equal to Anything then it absolutely-cannot be compared to another perspective except through some (undefined) criterion.


My post-question to this belief...is...what is the criterion anybody can use to judge Anything after this "perspective" is taken into account? But, what I really-propose here is that my "perspective" is not a Perspective at all. How can it be, when, I do not believe in any kind of fundamental Equality concerning Perspectives? Or, in other words, if no two Perspectives are the same, then how can they be accepted *EXCEPT* without some criterion to judge/observe/accept them, etc.?

It seems to me, then, that the criterion-itself precludes Actual Perspectives. And if no Perspectives are presumed to be "Equal" (which I actually-believe this) then a Perspective must immediately-become judged (in some way) before it is perceived at face-value.

Perhaps Prejudice???

And finally: What is a "perspective" in the first place? ~an opinion? ~something else?
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 23 Jun, 2009 10:06 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;71588 wrote:
And how about the perspective of the chap who thinks he is Louis the 16th? You find that all right, since he can discuss, research, observe, or ponder, the glorious court of Versailles (until he is beheaded, of course. But the pleasure of being with Marie Antoinette. Could you beat it?


He can do anything he wants. Probably less for me to worry about than all those chaps who think they know the truth and then go ahead with imposing that truth on others.


Quote:
I said you cannot believe something is true, and believe it is false.


This is your problem not mine.


Quote:
And that is clearly so. In any case, I suppose it is possible to believe something, and believe it is probably false if you are confused, or suffering from multiple personality. Or, of course, if you believe something, but refuse to accept it.


You seem to want to have Truth. By all means have it. Whatever makes you happy. Just don't expect me to concur. :detective:

Rich
 
nameless
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 12:34 am
@Violent Meme,
Violent Meme;71595 wrote:

And finally: What is a "perspective" in the first place? ~an opinion? ~something else?

Interesting that you have so much to say about Perspective and yet after all, you ask this. A dictionary is what, 5 seconds away? (Nowhere does it mention 'opinion, bye the way.)
Here, let me help, all definitions are relevent (and the link will provide more);

per⋅spec⋅tive [per-spek-tiv]
–noun
1. a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface. Compare aerial perspective, linear perspective.
2. a picture employing this technique, esp. one in which it is prominent: an architect's perspective of a house.
3. a visible scene, esp. one extending to a distance; vista: a perspective on the main axis of an estate.
4. the state of existing in space before the eye: The elevations look all right, but the building's composition is a failure in perspective.
5. the state of one's ideas, the facts known to one, etc., in having a meaningful interrelationship: You have to live here a few years to see local conditions in perspective.
6. the faculty of seeing all the relevant data in a meaningful relationship: Your data is admirably detailed but it lacks perspective.
7. a mental view or prospect: the dismal perspective of terminally ill patients.
 
Violent Meme
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 12:55 am
@nameless,
nameless;71632 wrote:
Interesting that you have so much to say about Perspective and yet after all, you ask this. A dictionary is what, 5 seconds away? (Nowhere does it mention 'opinion, bye the way.)
Here, let me help, all definitions are relevent (and the link will provide more);

per⋅spec⋅tive [per-spek-tiv]
-noun
1. a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface. Compare aerial perspective, linear perspective.
2. a picture employing this technique, esp. one in which it is prominent: an architect's perspective of a house.
3. a visible scene, esp. one extending to a distance; vista: a perspective on the main axis of an estate.
4. the state of existing in space before the eye: The elevations look all right, but the building's composition is a failure in perspective.
5. the state of one's ideas, the facts known to one, etc., in having a meaningful interrelationship: You have to live here a few years to see local conditions in perspective.
6. the faculty of seeing all the relevant data in a meaningful relationship: Your data is admirably detailed but it lacks perspective.
7. a mental view or prospect: the dismal perspective of terminally ill patients.

I was being rhetorical.

I know full-well what a "perspective" is.

It is just a (philosophical) opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

:whistling:
 
nameless
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 04:17 am
@Violent Meme,
Violent Meme;71637 wrote:
I was being rhetorical.

I know full-well what a "perspective" is.

It is just a (philosophical) opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Then you remain clueless.
You might try reading the dictionary. Your definition (that lives inside your head, " nothing more, nothing less") is a very singular, just in your own mind, definition.
Nowhere in any dictionary is your definition reflected. That doesnt discount your 'opinion', but you will have a difficult time communicating with people who are conversant with the language. You'll have to define your particular meaning to be understood.
The definitions everyone else uses (dictionary) is quite adequate. Your definition adds nothing to the mix, and actually reduces it into a moronic oblivion. Occam lances it like a boil!
 
Violent Meme
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 05:55 am
@nameless,
nameless;71653 wrote:
Then you remain clueless.

*PERSONAL INSULT*

Actually, nameless, I am not "clueless" at all, thank you very much!

I know exactly-what I am talking about, always.


nameless;71653 wrote:
You might try reading the dictionary. Your definition (that lives inside your head, " nothing more, nothing less") is a very singular, just in your own mind, definition.
Nowhere in any dictionary is your definition reflected. That doesnt discount your 'opinion', but you will have a difficult time communicating with people who are conversant with the language. You'll have to define your particular meaning to be understood.
The definitions everyone else uses (dictionary) is quite adequate. Your definition adds nothing to the mix, and actually reduces it into a moronic oblivion. Occam lances it like a boil!

Then I pity you, that you must rely on a Dictionary for your Knowledge.

You see, I first learned to read, speak, and understand words from my mother and father, not a Dictionary. And they learned from their mothers and fathers. This is how language is passed on...not through Dictionaries. Furthermore, I listen to how people use language. When one person says "All Perspectives are created Equal" what they mean is: "All Opinions are created Equal". I do not agree with this utterance, and Perspectivism, as a Philosophy, is generally-failed. You can continue to defend your "perspective" if you want to though, nameless.

Did you learn to read and speak from your parents, or are you a robot?


Try again, nameless. Very Happy

Laughing
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 07:26 am
@Violent Meme,
Violent Meme;71595 wrote:
Hi Rich,

And finally: What is a "perspective" in the first place? ~an opinion? ~something else?


Yes. I think it would be best described as an opinion or an observation. There is no attempt to make a value judgment or to impress it upon someone else. However, since people have to live together and get along, different perspectives are merged together by consensus.

Rich
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 07:33 am
@hue-man,
O Freunde nicht diese Tone !

Let's confine the discussion to ascertaining what the philosophical position of perspectivalism actually might entail; with this understanding, criticisms and analysis of the position and not the participants might be more productive.

That is "just" my perspective.
John
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 07:44 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;71705 wrote:
O Freunde nicht diese Tone !

Let's confine the discussion to ascertaining what the philosophical position of perspectivalism actually might entail; with this understanding, criticisms and analysis of the position and not the participants might be more productive.

That is "just" my perspective.
John



Sounds right to me. Ad hominems rarely get you anywhere. And in discussion, most of us not only want to get somewhere, but we think there may be somewhere to get. Fred Schiller had something there!
 
Violent Meme
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 07:53 am
@kennethamy,
Perspectives ≠ Positions.

:perplexed:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 08:09 am
@Violent Meme,
Violent Meme;71714 wrote:
Perspectives ≠ Positions.

:perplexed:


Certainly not in carnal matters, anyway.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 08:18 am
@hue-man,
Quote:
perspective
c.1380, "science of optics," from O.Fr. perspective, from M.L. perspectiva ars "science of optics," from fem. of perspectivus "of sight, optical" from L. perspectus, pp. of perspicere "inspect, look through," from per- "through" + specere "look at" (see scope (1)). Sense of "art of drawing objects so as to give appearance of distance or depth" is first found 1598, influenced by It. prospettiva, an artists' term. The fig. meaning "mental outlook over time" is first recorded 1762.


Quote:
opinion
c.1300, from O.Fr. opinion (12c.), from L. opinionem (nom. opinio) "opinion, conjecture, what one thinks," from stem of opinari "think, judge, suppose, opine," from PIE *op- "to choose." Opinionated "obstinate" is attested from 1601.


I fail to see how these terms are drastically different.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 08:21 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;71720 wrote:
I fail to see how these terms are drastically different.


I thought that perspectives cannot be true or false, but, certainly, opinions are true or false. In my opinion, Earth is the third planet. Isn't that true?
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 06/16/2024 at 12:30:46