Is Truth Invented or Discovered?

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 02:40 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;128478 wrote:

Just because someone is biased doesn't mean that what they believe in is wrong. Just because people disagree on any given thing doesn't mean that both disagreements are justified, and just because some people agree on any given thing doesn't mean that they're right. However, if you notice, people disagree on values far more than they do on facts (like whether or not the moon revolves around the earth). Romanticism (or idealism) and imagination has the tendency to be emotionally exciting, while realism has the tendency to be sobering. By understanding the affects that these worldviews have on human psychology we can understand the biases. One bias confuses imagination with reality and that's the problem.


I suspect that you have psychological reasons for adopting this conception of epistemology and its relationship to psychology. Sure, you can have all the faith you want in this view of yours, but it doesn't, for me, escape the difficulties I have mentioned.

People disagree very much on certain facts. Some facts allow for quite a bit of consensus. Truth is a property of sentences. Show me one single truth that is not a sentence, or a phrase. ("Sentence" is metonymy). Let's phrase it this way. Show me a truth, in your sense of the word, that isn't made of words. Just one. Only one. Please.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 02:44 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128624 wrote:
I suspect that you have psychological reasons for adopting this conception of epistemology and its relationship to psychology. Sure, you can have all the faith you want in this view of yours, but it doesn't, for me, escape the difficulties I have mentioned.

People disagree very much on certain facts. Some facts allow for quite a bit of consensus. Truth is a property of sentences. Show me one single truth that is not a sentence, or a phrase. ("Sentence" is metonymy). Let's phrase it this way. Show me a truth, in your sense of the word, that isn't made of words. Just one. Only one. Please.


That Mars is the fourth planet. The sentence that expresses that truth is, of course, made of words. But what it expresses is not made of words.
 
ACB
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 03:02 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128454 wrote:
The definition was invented. But what makes you think that stipulative definitions are true or false?


Isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 92" a true statement? And isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 91" a false statement? And didn't the first statement become true (having previously had no truth-value) when the word "uranium" was first coined and defined? If so, the truth was not discovered, but invented.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 03:06 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128637 wrote:
Isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 92" a true statement? And isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 91" a false statement? And didn't the first statement become true (having previously had no truth-value) when the word "uranium" was first coined and defined? If so, the truth was not discovered, but invented.


But uranium existed way before we ever coined the word "uranium", didn't it? And it had the properties that make it have the atomic number 92 way before we ever applied the written properties to the written name of the element.

We discovered the truth, we didn't invent it. All we did was articulate what was already, with language.
 
ACB
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 03:49 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;128639 wrote:
But uranium existed way before we ever coined the word "uranium", didn't it? And it had the properties that make it have the atomic number 92 way before we ever applied the written properties to the written name of the element.

We discovered the truth, we didn't invent it. All we did was articulate what was already, with language.


What we discovered was the truth that there existed an element with the properties that made it have the atomic number 92. What we invented was the truth that uranium was that element.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 04:35 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128648 wrote:
What we discovered was the truth that there existed an element with the properties that made it have the atomic number 92. What we invented was the truth that uranium was that element.


We invented the name, you mean? Sure, but let's not confuse that with inventing the actual element. That's what it seemed like you were saying.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 05:14 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128637 wrote:
Isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 92" a true statement? And isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 91" a false statement? And didn't the first statement become true (having previously had no truth-value) when the word "uranium" was first coined and defined? If so, the truth was not discovered, but invented.


No definitions are true or false until the words in which they are couched are invented. But the meanings of words are discovered by investigating the ways in which those words are used by fluent speakers of the language. And the results of those investigations. So definitions are true or false reports of how words are used. I certainly hope that the editors of the dictionary did not invent those definitions.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 06:18 PM ----------

ACB;128648 wrote:
What we discovered was the truth that there existed an element with the properties that made it have the atomic number 92. What we invented was the truth that uranium was that element.


How did we do that? Uranium was always that element, although that element was, of course, not called "uranium" until the word was coined. Mars always orbited the Sun, although the planet was not always called "Mars". Words and things. Very different. "Uranium" is the name of uranium. It is not uranium.
 
ACB
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:21 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128690 wrote:
No definitions are true or false until the words in which they are couched are invented. But the meanings of words are discovered by investigating the ways in which those words are used by fluent speakers of the language. And the results of those investigations. So definitions are true or false reports of how words are used. I certainly hope that the editors of the dictionary did not invent those definitions.


This is not the case when a new word is coined by an official (e.g. scientific) body. For example, the names of newly discovered (or newly synthesised) chemical elements.

kennethamy;128690 wrote:
How did we do that? Uranium was always that element, although that element was, of course, not called "uranium" until the word was coined. Mars always orbited the Sun, although the planet was not always called "Mars". Words and things. Very different. "Uranium" is the name of uranium. It is not uranium.


So at one time it was not true that the name of uranium is "uranium", but now it is true. That truth was invented, not discovered.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:27 pm
@Reconstructo,
ACB wrote:
So at one time it was not true that the name of uranium is "uranium", but now it is true. That truth was invented, not discovered.


But can we now discover it? Or once invented, always invented?

"So at one time it was not true that the name of uranium is "uranium", but now it is true", is true, by the way.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:42 pm
@kennethamy,
truth is invented - it is some (credible authority) saying this is this

fact is interpreted - it is an arbitrary experience codified and rheified

the only truth that can be independently verified is (is). That (is), that (exists) once it is said that that is X it has ventured into the interpreted facts of its features and properties. So once a person says that is uranium and uranium has features xys, or the Nile is the longest river in Africa and Nile/long/river/and Africa are interpreted the (is)-ness of the mineral or the river becomes truth because it is understood to be truth not because it is inherently true.
 
ACB
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:42 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;128721 wrote:
But can we now discover it? Or once invented, always invented?


No, it was only invented once. Now we know it - or, if we are new to the subject, we discover (i.e. learn) it.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:53 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128725 wrote:
No, it was only invented once. Now we know it - or, if we are new to the subject, we discover (i.e. learn) it.


But you would still dub it an invented truth, though people can discover it?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:55 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128719 wrote:




So at one time it was not true that the name of uranium is "uranium", but now it is true. That truth was invented, not discovered.


At one time uranium was not called, "uranium", since it was not called anything at all. What truth was invented? No one invented uranium.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 06:55 pm
@ACB,
ACB;128725 wrote:
No, it was only invented once. Now we know it - or, if we are new to the subject, we discover (i.e. learn) it.



I have the feeling that we think too agentively when it comes to some of these terms and phemomena.
Its not like there was an Ur-man going through naming things, that is unless we take Adam as literal father of humanity.
There are significant psychosocial and sociolinguistic factors at play. I know I have been ridden on in this forum plenty for supporting a real social/cultural entity, but there are functional sociolinguistic systems that are representative of the mass authoratative nature of human behavior. Nothing is "true" until it has been accepted into the realm of true things. Atoms were not true until they were true. Just because someone hypothesized them and named them and certain elites accepted that hypothesis, dis not make the atom true whether it exists or not. Right now there are a thousand true cosmologies, simply because they are believed to be true. People rarely consciously accept something as true, even new things to which they were not indoctrinated during formative years. Somewhere there is a process of experience, exposure, definition, and acceptance that happens internally or even societally that all of the sudden something becomes true that either wasn;t before or was unknown before. Really when was the last time any of us debated about the truth of a specific thing? (<--rhetorical question).
 
ACB
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 07:33 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128732 wrote:
What truth was invented?


The truth that the word "uranium" refers to the element with atomic number 92.

---------- Post added 02-16-2010 at 01:40 AM ----------

Zetherin;128731 wrote:
But you would still dub it an invented truth, though people can discover it?


Yes - a truth that was originally invented.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:14 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128626 wrote:
But what it expresses is not made of words.


This second "truth" is also made of words.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 10:16 PM ----------

GoshisDead;128734 wrote:
Nothing is "true" until it has been accepted into the realm of true things. Atoms were not true until they were true. Just because someone hypothesized them and named them and certain elites accepted that hypothesis, dis not make the atom true whether it exists or not.


Yes indeed. I'm glad there are a few out there who can see this.

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 10:17 PM ----------

ACB;128637 wrote:
Isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 92" a true statement? And isn't "uranium is the element with atomic number 91" a false statement? And didn't the first statement become true (having previously had no truth-value) when the word "uranium" was first coined and defined? If so, the truth was not discovered, but invented.


Well said. Truth is a property of statements. Statements are invented by man. I'm not saying that "discovered" is a useless description, but "invented " shows a higher degree of philosophical self-consciousness.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:20 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128774 wrote:
This second "truth" is also made of words.


But what are little girls made of? Sugar and spice, and everything nice. And, what are little boys made of? Snips and snails and puppy dogs' tails.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:21 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128732 wrote:
At one time uranium was not called, "uranium", since it was not called anything at all. What truth was invented? No one invented uranium.


"Uranium" was invented. Is there a non-human reality that our human conceptions refer to? I think there is. But we can't know it directly. We create a model of it. The model changes. At one time, radioactivity did not exist. Not for us as we understand it.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:27 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;128782 wrote:
"Uranium" was invented. Is there a non-human reality that our human conceptions refer to? I think there is. But we can't know it directly. We create a model of it. The model changes. At one time, radioactivity did not exist. Not for us as we understand it.


Right you are. There was radioactivity. But no one knew about it. Just as there was the planet Uranus. But no one knew about it until it was discovered in 1781.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 09:44 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;128785 wrote:
Right you are. There was radioactivity. But no one knew about it. Just as there was the planet Uranus. But no one knew about it until it was discovered in 1781.


It wasn't "radioactivity" and the word's associated concept. I thought you liked Wittgenstein.

Form of life (German Lebensform) is a non-technical term used by Ludwig Wittgenstein and others in the analytic philosophy and philosophy of languagegame' is meant to bring into prominence the fact that the speaking of language is part of an activity, or of a form of life" (PI 23). What enables language to function and therefore must be accepted as "given" is precisely forms of life. In Wittgenstein's terms, agreement is required "not only in definitions but also (queer as this may sound) in judgments" (PI 242), and this is "not agreement in opinions but in form of life" (PI 241). Used by Wittgenstein sparingly - five times in the Investigations - this intriguing concept has given rise to interpretative quandaries and subsequent contradictory readings. Forms of life can be understood as changing and contingent, dependent on culture, context, history, etc; this appeal to forms of life grounds a relativistic reading of Wittgenstein. On the other hand, it is the form of life common to humankind, "the common behavior of mankind" which is "the system of reference by means of which we interpret an unknown language" (PIPI p.230).

---------- Post added 02-15-2010 at 10:47 PM ----------

Reconstructo;128624 wrote:
Show me a truth, in your sense of the word, that isn't made of words. Just one. Only one. Please.



I'm still waiting. Bring on your non-linguistic truth. It just occurred to me that someone might go for mathematics. I won't count tautologies.
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/24/2024 at 11:34:54