On The Contrast Between Appearance And Reality

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Ahab
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136243 wrote:
You misunderstand again. He is asking for clarification. Don't you get it? People aren't understanding you. That's the problem. No one can answer whether what you're saying is reasonable or not, because you aren't making yourself clear. What does "involved in the origin of the evolutionary process" mean?

And now when I tell you to clarify, you'll probably think I'm out to get you again. Oh dear :nonooo:


Quite right. That is only why I only gave the part of the quote I did, for that is the part that needed clarification.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:45 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136246 wrote:
Of course not. how can laws be either intelligent or non-intelligent? They are no persons.


He's clearly talking about intelligent design, though he would like everyone to believe otherwise. It is easier just to stay as vague as possible, dancing around a few key words like "intelligence", and "mind", and never admit that you align with any popular spiritual/religious belief systems. That way, you can never be criticized! (because no one has a clue what you're even talking about)

I think as long as you tell him it is reasonable, he will feel comforted. Because, deep down, he needs the validation of a reasonable person to somehow justify his irrational beliefs, or what he wants to believe.

Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:48 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136255 wrote:
He's clearly talking about intelligent design, though he would like everyone to believe otherwise. It is easier just to stay as vague as possible, dancing around a few key words like "intelligence", and "mind", and never admit that you align with any popular spiritual/religious belief systems. That way, you can never be criticized! (because no one has a clue what you're even talking about)

I think as long as you tell him it is reasonable, he will feel comforted. Because, deep down, he needs the validation of a reasonable person for his irrational beliefs.

Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.



Of course. Clarity can be a threat of enormous proportions. It can make you admit that you have said something utterly absurd. Cloud it, to conceal it.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:49 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;135920 wrote:
If we can't know precisely what the contrast is between appearance and reality, what's to say there's any contrast at all?


Excellent point! "Appearence" and "reality" are distinctions imposed by the "mind" which is a distinction imposed by...the "mind"..hmmm, well, by the imposer of distinctions then, which cannot itself be a distinction, presuambly, and therefore neither mind nor matter....Hegel like "Geist" (a dynamic concept subsuming all others, as it is the inferred source of conceptualization in the first place, but is inferred by one immersed, as all humans are, in the contingent, and all of our concepts are contingent, all but the negative/progressive ontologic....

Seem pretty clear all the sudden and this is just Hegel/Wittgenstein....and this

---------- Post added 03-04-2010 at 08:51 PM ----------

The esoteric meaning of the Incarnation myth is more sophisticated by far than natural science, but natural science is a necessary descendant....for practical reasons....Just as this illusion causality is too convenient for most to doubt...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:52 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136255 wrote:
He's clearly talking about intelligent design, though he would like everyone to believe otherwise. It is easier just to stay as vague as possible, dancing around a few key words like "intelligence", and "mind", and never admit that you align with any popular spiritual/religious belief systems. That way, you can never be criticized! (because no one has a clue what you're even talking about)

I think as long as you tell him it is reasonable, he will feel comforted. Because, deep down, he needs the validation of a reasonable person to somehow justify his irrational beliefs, or what he wants to believe.

Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.


Good observation. I think you are evasive whenever a very searching philosophical question is asked about whether, for example, there is a purpose in nature. As this is not something that science really equips us to answer, you will generally not respond to any questions which could have such actual metaphysical implications, because you really have no idea how to deal with them. So it is easier to characterise the person asking the question as a 'creationist' and be done with it.

Is that about right? Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:56 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;136260 wrote:
Good observation. I think you are evasive whenever a very searching philosophical question is asked about whether, for example, there is a purpose in nature. As this is not something that science really equips us to answer, you will generally not respond to any questions which could have actual metaphysical implications, because you really have no idea how to deal with them. So it is easier to characterise the person asking the question as a 'creationist' and be done with it.

Is that about right? Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.


Hmm. I have not noticed any evasion. I think his answer is simply, no. That's not evasive, is it? So would that be my answer (although, since man is a part of nature, and since man has purposes, that needs to be qualified. But I don't think that is what you have in mind, is it?)
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:01 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;136260 wrote:
Good observation. I think you are evasive whenever a very searching philosophical question is asked about whether, for example, there is a purpose in nature. As this is not something that science really equips us to answer, you will generally not respond to any questions which could have such actual metaphysical implications, because you really have no idea how to deal with them. So it is easier to characterise the person asking the question as a 'creationist' and be done with it.

Is that about right? Sorry for the rudeness, if there is any.


Provide me with a clear question, and I will answer it.

There's no rudeness, my friend. You just misunderstand me. It is not the subject matter that upsets me, it is the mindset of the person who believes philosophy is about bathing in a tub of obscurity, and expelling turds of vagueness.

Don't you get it? No one even knows what you guys are talking about! It isn't that anyone is out to get metaphysics, it is that you don't have a clear position. But it isn't really even your fault, as you don't even know what you're talking about.
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:02 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136246 wrote:
Of course not. how can laws be either intelligent or non-intelligent? They are no persons.


I didn't say they were persons. You know exactly what I said.

What is the cause of the 'laws of nature'? What about them makes them 'laws'? Are they physical objects? If no, how can non-physical entities lead to the emergence of human minds? Futhermore how could non-physical laws lead to corporeal beings?


If evolution has led to the emergence of human minds, why is it unreasonable to suggest that the origin of the evolutionary process is itself a variety of intelligence? Surely, this is a widely held opinion. And you are unequivocally stating that all these people were and are unreasonble? What makes you correct?


Unless you can provide me with the actual cause of the origin of human evolution then the argument that states that the origin of the evolutionary process exhibits intelligence is no less reasonable than your own.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:04 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;136269 wrote:

Unless you can provide me with the actual cause of the origin of human evolution then the argument that states that the origin of the evolutionary process exhibits intelligence is no less reasonable than your own.


I think that causality is synthetic, or invented by man. Causality is neither transcendental nor in "nature" ....causality is a fiction, but this fiction is surprisingly and stunningly useful.....but causality is not logically grounded....

Both Hegel and Wittgenstein understood this..made this clear...Hegel not clear enough and Wittgenstein too clear...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:10 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;136269 wrote:
I didn't say they were persons. You know exactly what I said.

What is the cause of the 'laws of nature'? What about them makes them 'laws'? Are they physical objects? If no, how can non-physical entities lead to the emergence of human minds? Futhermore how could non-physical laws lead to corporeal beings?


If evolution has led to the emergence of human minds, why is it unreasonable to suggest that the origin of the evolutionary process is itself a variety of intelligence? Surely, this is a widely held opinion. And you are unequivocally stating that all these people were and are unreasonble? What makes you correct?


Unless you can provide me with the actual cause of the origin of human evolution then the argument that states that the origin of the evolutionary process exhibits intelligence is no less reasonable than your own.


I know you did not say they were persons. But if natural laws are not persons, then how could they be intelligent (or unintelligent)?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:15 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;136269 wrote:
I didn't say they were persons. You know exactly what I said.

What is the cause of the 'laws of nature'? What about them makes them 'laws'? Are they physical objects? If no, how can non-physical entities lead to the emergence of human minds? Futhermore how could non-physical laws lead to corporeal beings?


If evolution has led to the emergence of human minds, why is it unreasonable to suggest that the origin of the evolutionary process is itself a variety of intelligence? Surely, this is a widely held opinion. And you are unequivocally stating that all these people were and are unreasonble? What makes you correct?


Unless you can provide me with the actual cause of the origin of human evolution then the argument that states that the origin of the evolutionary process exhibits intelligence is no less reasonable than your own.


Jeeprs, get over here. You can't really believe this is clear, can you?

Reconstructo wrote:
Excellent point! "Appearence" and "reality" are distinctions imposed by the "mind" which is a distinction imposed by...the "mind"..hmmm, well, by the imposer of distinctions then, which cannot itself be a distinction, presuambly, and therefore neither mind nor matter....Hegel like "Geist" (a dynamic concept subsuming all others, as it is the inferred source of conceptualization in the first place, but is inferred by one immersed, as all humans are, in the contingent, and all of our concepts are contingent, all but the negative/progressive ontologic....


Or this.

No offense guys, but try to be more clear. I'm begging you. You know, from a philosophical standpoint (maybe I'll receive more sympathy this way).
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:17 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136273 wrote:
I know you did not say they were persons. But if natural laws are not persons, then how could they be intelligent (or unintelligent)?


That's not the issue. The issue is that you do not know the origin of the process that leads to the existence of human minds. And you are in effect saying that anyone who disagrees with you is making an unreasonable argument. Isn't that what your position comes down to?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:23 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136267 wrote:
Provide me with a clear question, and I will answer it.

There's no rudeness, my friend. You just misunderstand me. It is not the subject matter that upsets me, it is the mindset of the person who believes philosophy is about bathing in a tub of obscurity, and expelling turds of vagueness.

Don't you get it? No one even knows what you guys are talking about! It isn't that anyone is out to get metaphysics, it is that you don't have a clear position. But it isn't really even your fault, as you don't even know what you're talking about.


Direct question: do you have any knowledge of the various philosophies which depict mind or intelligence as the 'fundamental ground' of reality? Do you have any knowledge of the idea of 'nous' as both the active intellectual principle in the mind of man, and the organising principle in the cosmos? Or would you rather engage in toilet humor?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:23 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136277 wrote:

No offense guys, but try to be more clear. I'm begging you. You know, from a philosophical standpoint (maybe I'll receive more sympathy this way).


Do you know Kant? He thought that concepts were transcendentally imposed by the mind, which is to say automatically. He thought that we automatically found cause in nature. He founded his analytic on Aristotle's categories, 12 altogether, and these were, for Kant, the necessary structure of human thinking.

But Hegel first and then Wittgenstein realized that all of these Kantian categories are modifications of a single analytic. For Wittgenstein, logic reduces to tautology and contradiction. All of formal logic is built up from only these two factors. All of it. And all of math. And this is also the logical basis of human discourse.

Nature does seem to have causality, but this a human projection, which is pragmatically justified. Causality is a meme. For causality cannot be logically justified. Hume showed this long ago, which inspired Kant to "refute" him, but Kant failed, although he seemed to have succeeded.

Hegel shows this in his logic, but the central concept of his logic is hard to grasp, because it's an utterly strange maneuver. Wittgenstein, for whatever reason, came to the same conclusion. Causality, time, and the self are useful fictions. I may sound strange, but I can justify all my statements. I "believe" in Reason, with a minimum of contingent metaphor. I had my fill of Nietzche and Rorty, who were half right. I bumped into ontology. It's the root science, the root of all science. That is what H & W discovered.
I realize how difficult my last post seemed. Although the words are precise and carefully chosen, it's a thick brew. So I am happy to decode it. Thanks, Z, for at least caring enough to ask for clarification...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:24 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;136279 wrote:
That's not the issue. The issue is that you do not know the origin of the process that leads to the existence of human minds. And you are in effect saying that anyone who disagrees with you is making an unreasonable argument. Isn't that what your position comes down to?


Again, he would kinda need an argument to judge whether it was unreasonable, wouldn't he? Or, do you think he should make one up for you?
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:25 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136283 wrote:
Again, he would kinda need an argument to judge whether it was unreasonable, wouldn't he? Or, do you think he should make one up for you?



Zetherin you are too stupid to follow the thread.

--
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:27 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;136281 wrote:
Direct question: do you have any knowledge of the various philosophies which depict mind or intelligence as the 'fundamental ground' of reality?


No.

Quote:
Do you have any knowledge of the idea of 'nous' as both the active intellectual principle in the mind of man, and the organising principle in the cosmos?


No.

Quote:
Or would you rather engage in toilet humor?


No.

Pythagorean wrote:
Zetherin you are too stupid to follow the thread.


I'm definitely too something to follow the thread.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:30 pm
@Pythagorean,
I had put a comment here, but took it out as I later decided it was meaningless.

Here too much.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:33 pm
@Pythagorean,
To quote Martin: "can't we all just get along?"
Let's talk about the issues....appearance and reality, and maybe also the little-spoken-of-source of both distinctions....

Where o where does thought come from? It's not as simple as the "brain," for this is just a thought. And even if we are grounded somehow in the body, as we do indeed seem to be, what does this mean logically? In a practical sense, we know what we mean by appearance and reality. But logically, it's a sublime dilmma! And I now think that Kant was wrong about noumena. Noumena was a stopgap, a misunderstanding.

Kant was only half-way there, but deserves much credit for moving in the right direction....
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 09:42 pm
@Reconstructo,
 
 

 
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