On The Contrast Between Appearance And Reality

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Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 12:51 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135475 wrote:


I wonder sometimes who you're talking to, if anyone?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 12:53 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;135477 wrote:
I wonder sometimes who you're talking to, if anyone?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 12:54 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135476 wrote:
No, the link doesn't capture that distinction at all. So, it doesn't help.

Read thios; Laws of Nature [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]


Capture what distinction? It explains what we call laws of nature. I thought that was enough. What distinction are you trying to make, or you thought I was trying to make, or someone else is trying to make?

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 01:55 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;135478 wrote:


Ah, alright. Sometimes I can't tell. My apologies.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 12:58 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;135479 wrote:
Capture what distinction? It explains what we call laws of nature. I thought that was enough. What distinction are you trying to make, or you thought I was trying to make, or someone else is trying to make?

---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 01:55 PM ----------



Ah, alright. Sometimes I can't tell. My apologies.


The distinction would be that in my view Laws of Nature if efficient causal then Final Causal...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:00 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135482 wrote:
The distinction would be that in my view Laws of Nature if efficient causal then Final Causal...


Laws of Nature if efficient causal then Final Causal... :shocked:
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:03 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;135483 wrote:
Laws of Nature if efficient causal then Final Causal... :shocked:


---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 02:04 PM ----------

...Do you remember what critical mass is ???
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:05 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;135479 wrote:
Capture what distinction? It explains what we call laws of nature. I thought that was enough. What distinction are you trying to make, or you thought I was trying to make, or someone else is trying to make?


What you call the "laws of nature" are really two sets of views.

When people like kennethamy talk about laws as governing the universe and making somethings physically impossible, that's a view called necessitarianism. Those laws of nature are laws in the fullest sense of the word. They are actual rules that the universe must obey. If it's a law of nature that you wash your car on Thursday then you must wash your on Thursday. It can't fail to happen. It's physically necessary.

The other view is called regularity. On this view, nothing has to happen but regardless, somethings do happen and somethings happen extremely regularly. These regularities can be described with laws but they are simply true statements, not rules to be followed.

The difference is basically whether you think how reality is dictates which laws are true or if you think which laws are true dictates how reality is.

Under the view of necessity, if something goes faster than the speed of light, a law of nature has been broken. Under the view of regularity, if something goes faster than the speed of light, it was never really a law in the first place.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:09 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135486 wrote:
---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 02:04 PM ----------

...Do you remember what critical mass is ???


There's no need to add spaces in your conjunctions.

I agree with you, and I think you are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, correct about everything.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:10 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135488 wrote:
What you call the "laws of nature" are really two sets of views.

When people like kennethamy talk about laws as governing the universe and making somethings physically impossible, that's a view called necessitarianism. Those laws of nature are laws in the fullest sense of the word. They are actual rules that the universe must obey. If it's a law of nature that you wash your car on Thursday then you must wash your on Thrusday. It can't fail to happen. It's physically necessary.

The other view is called regularity. On this view, nothing has to happen but regardless, somethings do happen and somethings happen extremely regularly. These regularities can be described with laws but they are simply true statements, not rules to be followed.

The difference is basically whether you think how reality is dictates which laws are true or if you think which laws are true dictates how reality is.

Under the view of necessity, if something goes faster than the speed of light, a law of nature has been broken. Under the view of regularity, if something goes faster than the speed of light, it was never really a law in the first place.


---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 02:15 PM ----------

Zetherin;135491 wrote:
There's no need to add spaces in your conjunctions.

I agree with you, and I think you are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, correct about everything.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135492 wrote:


I knew someone would bring that up. You're right that obviously we would say that "it wasn't really a law" rather than saying "a law was broken" even under the view of necessity.

However, let's ignore that because my point is, it wouldn't even be meaningful to say that a law of nature has been broken under the view of regularity. A law of nature is a universally true statement about the world. A law that was broken wasn't universally true and, by the meaning of the word, wasn't a law of nature.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:24 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135495 wrote:
I knew someone would bring that up. You're right that obviously we would say that "it wasn't really a law" rather than saying "a law was broken" even under the view of necessity.

However, let's ignore that because my point is, it wouldn't even be meaningful to say that a law of nature has been broken under the view of regularity. A law of nature is a universally true statement about the world. A law that was broken wasn't universally true and, by the meaning of the word, wasn't a law of nature.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:26 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135499 wrote:


A T.O.E. wouldn't account for necessity. How could it? Necessity isn't testable. How can you tell the difference between something that must happen and something that does happen? Either way, it happened and that's all you can observe.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:31 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135501 wrote:
A T.O.E. wouldn't account for necessity. How could it? Necessity isn't testable. How can you tell the difference between something that must happen and something that does happen? Either way, it happened and that's all you can observe.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:34 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135503 wrote:
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:38 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135504 wrote:


---------- Post added 03-03-2010 at 02:45 PM ----------

Anyway as my perspective is Holistic and we are far from possessing all the elements, then all that I can give you is Intuition for an answer...
...throw it away if you must, I know I would in your place...Smile
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:20 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;135387 wrote:
No, it's not pure accident. There are many things which cause an organism to evolve - it doesn't happen randomly in many cases. For instance, through natural selection, organisms acquire traits which make it more likely for their species to survive and reproduce. So, this would fulfill my understanding of reason (perhaps not yours). But there's always a cause, even when it is considered random.


This is the nub of the problem indeed. In the Origin of Species, there is an explicit rejection of the idea of cause, other than those which can be attributed to the role of selective pressure, operating on the basis of changes brought about by chance mutation. So as far as Darwinian theory is concerned, this is elevated to a matter of principle. Now I notice that Kennethamy has observed that he supposes evolution is a natural law. Actually it is most unclear in the general discussion what 'natural law' means, beyond the two principles I have mentioned. I think you would find most orthodox biologists would be antagonistic to the idea of 'natural law' if it gave the impression that there really was any sort of underlying cause in all of this. The effect of the law of evolution really amounts to changes that occur by chance, that are then preserved because of the inexorable logic of survival. This is why Jacques Monod called his famous book on the topic 'Chance and Necessity' which, written in 1972, is the clearest statement of the attitude that life, and man, is a 'biochemical fluke'. (There are others, though.)

Now Richard Dawkins tries to distance himself from the idea of chance and necessity. He has realised that the idea of 'random evolution' is quite nonsensical and insists that the action of 'selection' implies that the process is anything but random.

Quote:
Q: You said in a recent speech that design was not the only alternative to chance. A lot of people think that evolution is all about random chance.

A: That's ludicrous. That's ridiculous. Mutation is random in the sense that it's not anticipatory of what's needed. Natural selection is anything but random. Natural selection is a guided process, guided not by any higher power, but simply by which genes survive and which genes don't survive. That's a non-random process. The animals that are best at whatever they do-hunting, flying, fishing, swimming, digging-whatever the species does, the individuals that are best at it are the ones that pass on the genes. It's because of this non-random process that lions are so good at hunting, antelopes so good at running away from lions, and fish are so good at swimming.
Source

This is, of course, quite correct in one sense; there are a finite number of outcomes possible, and many random changes are in any case non-viable and immediately fatal. However the philosophical implication of evolutionary theory seems to me that it elevates 'survival' to a very high position indeed in the development of the human species. So now we have these efforts, which do border on the ideological, to explain all of our rational abilities and 'higher powers' in terms of characteristics which helped us to survive.

Now obviously, we have to survive. But I have always felt that evolutionary theory does not address the difference between 'living' and 'surviving'. And most human culture dwells in that gap. So while there is probably nothing wrong with the theory as a biological account of evolution, what has happened in the modern world is that it is actually being used to discredit, disparage and undermine any type of human attribute or ability which cannot be directly rationalised in evolutionary terms. Dawkins in particular is the supreme exemplar of this: he demands a Universe within which everything and every cause is explainable in his terms, something which in fact or in principle he can understand. It is the idea of mystery that really enrages (actually, I think, frightens) him, and which he continually seeks to defuse with his so-called rationality.

Finally, and fundamentally, the attempt to rationalise the human mind in purely evolutionary terms really must not be used to undermine the foundation of Western philosophy, which is, that the human mind can perceive a transcendent truth, a truth which is true for all people and all times. Above, I provided a detailed argument for 'number' as a truth of this kind. However I believe the Western tradition extends this principle to the ethical realm as well. The attempt by biological science to subsume this ability under its theory of biological evolution is, I believe, misguided and incorrect, and must be resisted.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:32 pm
@Pythagorean,
jeeprs wrote:

Finally, and fundamentally, the attempt to rationalise the human mind in purely evolutionary terms really must not be used to undermine the foundation of Western philosophy, which is, that the human mind can perceive a transcendent truth, a truth which is true for all people and all times.


But stating that the human mind is due to evolution, isn't saying much about the mind, is it? When I say that humans are the result of evolutionary processes, I am not disregarding what humans are capable of, whether it be intellectual or otherwise. In fact, I'm not saying anything about the details of humans at all, whether it be positive, negative, or neutral.

Just what is it that you believe biology is attempting to subsume?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:36 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135377 wrote:
.
I mean that Evolution as a purpose in History...a FUNCTION !!!


Hegel that the One was a mind-matter unity on the way to becoming conscious of itself..I don't go this far. I stay closer to statements on the structure of the mind. but Hegel's organic totality sounds something like your thoughts of evolution as purposeful from the beginning.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:51 pm
@Pythagorean,
It was Pythagorean's question:

Pythagorean;134904 wrote:
Kenneth - Is the evolutionary process that has, as is your position, led to the appearance of human minds purely accidental in nature?


Now the question is whether evolutionary science, or even science generally, does imply that human intelligence is somehow accidental or fortuitous. Most scientifically-oriented thinkers seem to answer the question in the affirmative. And this is where there is a collision between natural science and Western philosophy, in my view. Scientists seem to think that any idea of the pre-destination or inevitability of the emergence of human intelligence is a religious idea. Well - is it?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 02:54 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;135443 wrote:


It was an accident, and I did not intend to do it. I may have been clumsy, but that does not have anything to do with whether I intended to do it. That is how the word "accident" is used in English. You must have exactly the same concept in Portugal.

All accidents are accidental. That is a tautology.

P.S. I tried to find a way of putting in the word, "Logos", so you would think you understood what I wrote, but I could not find a way of doing it. Sorry.
 
 

 
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