Know Thyself?

@Subjectivity9,

Quote:

Rich,

I do not force myself to pay attention to Self constantly either. That would have to be done with the mind.

What I have found is that, I can trust that whenever the mind thinks to look at Awareness/Self that it is always present and cannot possibly be lost.

Like you say this is a relaxing into the Self/Spirit.

So my finite life/dream appears to takes place just like anyone elses. To look at me, others would simply see me going about my business as usual. The only difference, and this makes 'ALL' of the difference, is that I know without a doubt, "Who I Am."

It is not necessary to be relaxed physically or mentally in order to see awareness more. At some point Self/Spirit becomes so obvious that you can be set on fire and be burning to death, or even screaming out involuntarily in pain, and you still would know who you are, and that you are not the person burning. It is a dream person burning.

S9

[/QUOTE]

Rich;

"Paying attention to self" is not something that happens when you are "be-ing" who you are.

What actually happens is that you experience having made a "leap" across an abyss and being aware of having "leaped." You are aware that you are standing on "new" ground.

You are aware that you previously expressed who you are through "Cartesian dualism" but you are also aware that there is no "the mind", there is no "relaxing into the Self/Spirit", and there is no being "relaxed physically or mentally."

There is only you standing in a clearing on the other side, be-ing. At that point you no longer entertain the possibility of expressing your be-ing as mind/body because the experience you have of your self is much bigger than what can be expressed in "dualism."

Who you are can express "Cartesian Dualism", but "Cartesian Dualism" can't express who you are. The fact that "Cartesian Dualism" can't express who you are is why mankind is still "chasing its tail, and hasn't resolved the problem with an answer.

I invite you to read my blog at Philosophy Forum - Dasein. There are 2 postings which will lead you in the right direction. One is called "Don't Pick Up The Turd" / "The Subject is the Predicate" and the other is called "Reading Heidegger." Read "Don't Pick Up The Turd" first.

Dasein

@richrf,

Dasein,

Knowing Thy self or Realization has everything to do with where you are standing, (Are you standing in Being?) and your perspective (Are you looking around in finitude as though your were the ego self?) or (Are you looking out from Your Eternal Self?)

That is why it is said that in order to know Being, one must actually be Being, or your Ultimate Self. You must take your seat within Being/Self and refuse to move out ever again.

Yes, this elusive definition that we hope to all agree on. But that would still put us all right in the mind, “Word-ized Heaven,” wouldn’t it?

Or as Zen likes to say, “Words are the finger pointing. Look where it is pointing.”

It is this net of words, which we use to hunt and capture Self or Realization, which also unfortunately can convince us, all too often and to our detriment, that Realization is just well chosen words or mental understanding.

So how do we in your opinion, uncover Being?

S9

@Dasein,

Quote:

What actually happens is that you experience having made a "leap" across an abyss and being aware of having "leaped." You are aware that you are standing on "new" ground.

Yes, as we learn we always move onto new ground. Everyone is learning in their own way and their own time - and it is all the same.

Rich

@richrf,

Perception of truth is not necessarily truth.

Opinion does not create truth or alter it.

Truth is not what we make of it through our own theorizing.

Truth is the reality of what exists and what has existed. What exists cannot be denied by opinion and what has existed cannot be erased by speculation.

The human is not the center of truth, and does not create it from his ability to perceive. The human lives within the truth, and observes its passing reality when he becomes enabled to do so.

The human, as their consciousness evolves, has the ability to draw from their consciousness to logically evaluate what is truth and what is not, thereby recognizing the truth of what they are and their relation to creation. This is to know oneself.

Logically evaluating the truths revealed to them requires always being prepared to reconsider what they thought to be a truth. Otherwise they would never learn from a mistake and be trapped within it.

@richrf,

Pathfinder,

By “tripping in a singularity” do you mean that my thinking is a bit solipsistic? Other people have said this to me. But I believe that this is because, for some reason, I am not making myself understood.

Others have even accused me of thinking that I am God, a blasphemy in their eyes. I’m only glad that they didn’t run to get a cross. ; ^ ) But this too would be a misunderstanding in the way that I view it.

See, if I thought that I was the small self (AKA ego self), than perhaps this would be applicable. But I do not identify with the ego self, so I am not putting ego on any throne in heaven.

What is actually going on within my thinking is that life in taking place on multiple levels simultaneously. Ego is like an actor in a play, and the play is taking place only temporarily within finitude. (It comes up and goes down.) When the play is over, we all take off our costumes willingly and go home.

This play while it is going on is exceedingly convincing, even hypnotic, so that some of us fall into it forgetting that it is just a play. (The River of Lethe, sometimes identified with the Daimon Lethe, the personification of forgetfulness.)

I think perhaps where we are tripping over each other is in our personal understanding of transcendence. How do you see this?

I am not however trying to absorb everything around me, if by saying this you are referring to this material earth. In fact, I am seeing this earth as a misunderstanding of what is Real or Ultimate Self. A misunderstanding (AKA a mistake) is rather more like useless baggage that one might wish to be free of.

Of course this life, as a problem, is only true if you think of finitude as an equal partner with Eternity. (Which it is not.)

If you understand finitude as simply playing (AKA dreaming) than you can simply enjoy yourself without confusion or suffering. Everything becomes exceeding light and pleasant in its own way. When things go wrong, "Not me," you think. Similar to a game of Monopoly, within this paradigm, you don't fall to pieces when you lose all of your money. ; ^ )

Your observations seem keen enough. However, I believe your perspective blocks you from seeing my position correctly. I am certain, that I too suffer under this same disadvantage when trying to view your position. I believe that we humans are all mistaken when we believe that we are living in the same world. (We are not.) We are actually all living in our own world right between our ears. The only place where we are all actually together and identical is within our Ultimate Self or our Eternal Being.

I have a fairly good intellect, and this mind requires intellectual stimulation, much like my stomach requires food, in order to be content. One of the ways of which I supply this stimulation is with metaphysics. But I also fully realize that, any metaphysical answer will of necessity only be a partial answer, because this is the way that the mind works. The mind breaks things up into smaller part, gives them names, and creates comparisons or duality. Spirit, on the other hand, experiences its Self as Being Whole, with no need of other.

I am not trying to grasp these partial truths. That is what the mind does, and I am not the mind. I am merely playing with these partial truths, because I love Spirit so dog gone much. I enjoy looking at Spirit from many angles, a kind of creativity, but at the same time I fully realize that any one angle is not the Whole Truth. This probably similar to enjoying seasons playing across one landscape. There is a beauty all its own in this changing. Or again, this might be like watching someone you love grow old. You see the seasons play across their face, and yet they remain beautiful in your eyes with every change.

I do understand what you mean by staying open to revelation. There is a big part of me that stands in complete awe or knows no thing. It is full and filling with I know not what, because the mind cannot seem to define it. This is where I actually look for my answers now. But these answers are totally empty of mind and at the very same time have a certainty about them that cannot be shaken. Eternal Being” is wondrous and fully satisfying. Being is Truth, the Whole Truth.

To think that we have captured truth within finitude is to misunderstand the nature of finitude. But Ultimate Truth need not be open to constant change. Eternal Truth (AKA Ultimate Truth) is the Mother of all partial truths, containing all, but not simply as a unity, perhaps more like containing all possibility.

May I ask you? Are you a meditator?

S9

@richrf,

Quote:

richrf;96461 wrote:
Yes, as we learn we always move onto new ground. Everyone is learning in their own way and their own time - and it is all the same.

Rich

Rich;

Your condescension is duly noted.

Dasein

@richrf,

Dasein,

Do you feel that you have made this final leap, this “leap of faith,” which is require in order to Transcend? Could you speak further upon how you view this? Could you also get into how you view this new ground? Is it an Ultimate Ground?

It was I, S9, who referred to Cartesian dualism, if I am not mistaken in how you are using this.

For example, “I think therefore I am.”

However please understand that, I do not share this man view. I was using it as an example of the mind’s more limited view.

I agree that standing in Being/Self is the whole enchilada, and this is indeed separate and apart. I also agree that it is finitude that swims within Eternal Self/Being. Chasing ones tail IS finitude or mind. It is a circle.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96422 wrote:

Dasein,

Knowing Thy self or Realization has everything to do with where you are standing, (Are you standing in Being?) and your perspective (Are you looking around in finitude as though your were the ego self?) or (Are you looking out from Your Eternal Self?)

That is why it is said that in order to know Being, one must actually be Being, or your Ultimate Self. You must take your seat within Being/Self and refuse to move out ever again.

Yes, this elusive definition that we hope to all agree on. But that would still put us all right in the mind, "Word-ized Heaven," wouldn't it?

Or as Zen likes to say, "Words are the finger pointing. Look where it is pointing."

It is this net of words, which we use to hunt and capture Self or Realization, which also unfortunately can convince us, all too often and to our detriment, that Realization is just well chosen words or mental understanding.

So how do we in your opinion, uncover Being?

S9

S9;

I appreciate your response. What you're saying has accuracy. The difficulty I'm having has to do with the language you are using.

What you're saying is accurate, like you really know what I'm saying. Yet the sequence of the words you are using has me thinking that what you "know" is intellectual knowledge and is not be-ing. Only you know if I am accurate, I can only read the words and their sequencing.

I invite you to read my blog at Philosophy Forum - Dasein. There are 2 postings which will lead you in the right direction. One is called "Don't Pick Up The Turd" / "The Subject is the Predicate" and the other is called "Reading Heidegger." Read "Don't Pick Up The Turd" first.

You said;
[QUOTE]"Knowing Thy self or Realization has everything to do with where you are standing, (Are you standing in Being?) and your perspective (Are you looking around in finitude as though your were the ego self?) or (Are you looking out from Your Eternal Self?)"[/QUOTE]

Having made the "leap" (see earlier posts in this thread) what actually happens is that I am be-ing. "Knowing Thy self or Realization" no longer have the "weight" they had before the leap. After making the leap it no longer matters where you are standing. You are your stand. On top of all that "perspective", "ego self", and "Eternal Self" are not conversations you entertain any longer. After the leap you get that you can have those conversations (if you want to) but the end result of those conversations is entanglement and not be-ing, so you just don't participate in them. (see what you wrote immediately below)

You said;
[QUOTE]"That is why it is said that in order to know Being, one must actually be Being, or your Ultimate Self. You must take your seat within Being/Self and refuse to move out ever again."[/QUOTE]

You also said;

Quote:

Or as Zen likes to say, "Words are the finger pointing. Look where it is pointing."

"It is this net of words, which we use to hunt and capture Self or Realization, which also unfortunately can convince us, all too often and to our detriment, that Realization is just well chosen words or mental understanding."

Your "net of words" describes what I refer to as "entanglement." And yes, if you don't look to where the finger is pointing you can deceive yourself and cover up be-ing. The good news is this, once you make the leap, there is no going back.

Your last question is the most difficult of all.

You said;
[QUOTE]"So how do we in your opinion, uncover Being?"[/QUOTE]

Normally when a question is worded like that, the person is looking for an answer, a formula, or a step-by-step instruction on what to do to produce the desired result. That you ask the question tells me that you haven't made the leap and that you are committed to be-ing who you are. The path you take to be-ing is exclusively yours. Nobody can tell you "how" to do it. Just a point of clarification, "you" are the path that you are taking and since "you" are like nobody else, nobody else can tell you how. It has always been up to "you" to uncover be-ing.

What I did is written about in my blog, "Reading Heidegger." I suggest you read it.

Dasein

---------- Post added 10-10-2009 at 09:59 AM ----------

Subjectivity9;96512 wrote:

Dasein,

Do you feel that you have made this final leap, this "leap of faith," which is require in order to Transcend? Could you speak further upon how you view this? Could you also get into how you view this new ground? Is it an Ultimate Ground?

It was I, S9, who referred to Cartesian dualism, if I am not mistaken in how you are using this.

For example, "I think therefore I am."

However please understand that, I do not share this man view. I was using it as an example of the mind's more limited view.

I agree that standing in Being/Self is the whole enchilada, and this is indeed separate and apart. I also agree that it is finitude that swims within Eternal Self/Being. Chasing ones tail IS finitude or mind. It is a circle.

S9

S9

I spent the morning writing a response to you other post so I didn't know this one existed until now. Some of what you ask is addressed in the response I just posted.

Faith is who you are and when you make the "leap" into be-ing it is a "leap of faith." It is "you" leaping into be-ing, standing on the "ground" that is "you". That is why it is called a "leap of faith."

BTW - you are "finitude". You bring forth "who you are" and it shows up in time. It doesn't work any other way.

Dasein

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96507 wrote:

Pathfinder,

By "tripping in a singularity" do you mean that my thinking is a bit solipsistic? Other people have said this to me. But I believe that this is because, for some reason, I am not making myself understood.

Others have even accused me of thinking that I am God, a blasphemy in their eyes. I'm only glad that they didn't run to get a cross. ; ^ ) But this too would be a misunderstanding in the way that I view it.

See, if I thought that I was the small self (AKA ego self), than perhaps this would be applicable. But I do not identify with the ego self, so I am not putting ego on any throne in heaven.

What is actually going on within my thinking is that life in taking place on multiple levels simultaneously. Ego is like an actor in a play, and the play is taking place only temporarily within finitude. (It comes up and goes down.) When the play is over, we all take off our costumes willingly and go home.

This play while it is going on is exceedingly convincing, even hypnotic, so that some of us fall into it forgetting that it is just a play. (The River of Lethe, sometimes identified with the Daimon Lethe, the personification of forgetfulness.)

I think perhaps where we are tripping over each other is in our personal understanding of transcendence. How do you see this?

I am not however trying to absorb everything around me, if by saying this you are referring to this material earth. In fact, I am seeing this earth as a misunderstanding of what is Real or Ultimate Self. A misunderstanding (AKA a mistake) is rather more like useless baggage that one might wish to be free of.

Of course this life, as a problem, is only true if you think of finitude as an equal partner with Eternity. (Which it is not.)

If you understand finitude as simply playing (AKA dreaming) than you can simply enjoy yourself without confusion or suffering. Everything becomes exceeding light and pleasant in its own way. When things go wrong, "Not me," you think. Similar to a game of Monopoly, within this paradigm, you don't fall to pieces when you lose all of your money. ; ^ )

Your observations seem keen enough. However, I believe your perspective blocks you from seeing my position correctly. I am certain, that I too suffer under this same disadvantage when trying to view your position. I believe that we humans are all mistaken when we believe that we are living in the same world. (We are not.) We are actually all living in our own world right between our ears. The only place where we are all actually together and identical is within our Ultimate Self or our Eternal Being.

I have a fairly good intellect, and this mind requires intellectual stimulation, much like my stomach requires food, in order to be content. One of the ways of which I supply this stimulation is with metaphysics. But I also fully realize that, any metaphysical answer will of necessity only be a partial answer, because this is the way that the mind works. The mind breaks things up into smaller part, gives them names, and creates comparisons or duality. Spirit, on the other hand, experiences its Self as Being Whole, with no need of other.

I am not trying to grasp these partial truths. That is what the mind does, and I am not the mind. I am merely playing with these partial truths, because I love Spirit so dog gone much. I enjoy looking at Spirit from many angles, a kind of creativity, but at the same time I fully realize that any one angle is not the Whole Truth. This probably similar to enjoying seasons playing across one landscape. There is a beauty all its own in this changing. Or again, this might be like watching someone you love grow old. You see the seasons play across their face, and yet they remain beautiful in your eyes with every change.

I do understand what you mean by staying open to revelation. There is a big part of me that stands in complete awe or knows no thing. It is full and filling with I know not what, because the mind cannot seem to define it. This is where I actually look for my answers now. But these answers are totally empty of mind and at the very same time have a certainty about them that cannot be shaken. Eternal Being" is wondrous and fully satisfying. Being is Truth, the Whole Truth.

To think that we have captured truth within finitude is to misunderstand the nature of finitude. But Ultimate Truth need not be open to constant change. Eternal Truth (AKA Ultimate Truth) is the Mother of all partial truths, containing all, but not simply as a unity, perhaps more like containing all possibility.

May I ask you? Are you a meditator?

S9

Hello S9,

I am a 52 year old so I use some of the old slang at times thinking that everyone would know it and forget that this internet is international and cross cultural. I used tripping in the old sense of enjoying an acid trip.

Not that I would know anything about that! Laughing

:whistling:

Thanks for taking the time to explain with a little more definition your views. It certainly did help somewhat.

I must ask if you are part of a larger following with the same ideas? It sounds as though you may be more of a Theosophist, but with a bit of a twist. They do not seem to use the same language or descriptions as you do, but it sounds very similar.

This Spirit you speak of, sounds like the whole of creation wrapped into one entity of intelligence and experience. How are you connected with it?

@Dasein,

Dasein;96520 wrote:

result of those conversations is entanglement and not be-ing

Perhaps aesthetic entanglement is more integrative to the Occam's Razor within classical physics than you let on?

When you become more and more efficient at bridging polemics, moderate upgrades equally advance.

@richrf,

Hello Pathfinder,

I don’t like to pin myself down when searching for the truth. So I couldn’t really say that I belong to any particular school of thought. No, I am not a Theosophist.

I like Krishnamurti much better, and he turned his back on them.

I am under the impression that Ultimate Truth can only be come upon, or rather noticed as being Ever-Present, through each individual’s observation or simply by looking directly. In other words, in the end, Liberation is not a group activity. We cannot arrive at Liberation walking arm and arm.

Mysticism, although it is not a particular school as it is more ubiquitous than that, does have a large number of persons within its ranks. My jiva (Human manifestation) calls itself a mystic.

I believe that my concept of the Tao comes closer to being, “ like the whole of creation wrapped into one entity of intelligence and experience,” than my idea of Spirit. I do believe that this universe is one network, which includes a shared intelligence. But this universe is happening within finitude and therefore not Spirit/One.

Lets get this clear, I do not believe in God, as it is commonly understood, as being something separate from my own Ultimate I Am.

Perhaps the word Spirit isn’t my best choice of words when speaking to you of these things, too much baggage. I also call Spirit, the “One.”

But the “One” doesn’t of necessity include all mistaken ideas within itself, as a part of a fabric of the Self.

In other words, our present mistaken perspective on finitude is not a legitimate piece of the One.

I Am the One, everyone is. It is the very center of every world possible. Every world possible is imagination. It exists only in impermanance. One is Eternally Present to all imagination, and yet at the same time is not imagined itself. Does that help?

To know Thyself is to know the One.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96714 wrote:

Hello Pathfinder,

I don't like to pin myself down when searching for the truth. So I couldn't really say that I belong to any particular school of thought. No, I am not a Theosophist.

I like Krishnamurti much better, and he turned his back on them.

I am under the impression that Ultimate Truth can only be come upon, or rather noticed as being Ever-Present, through each individual's observation or simply by looking directly. In other words, in the end, Liberation is not a group activity. We cannot arrive at Liberation walking arm and arm.

Mysticism, although it is not a particular school as it is more ubiquitous than that, does have a large number of persons within its ranks. My jiva (Human manifestation) calls itself a mystic.

I believe that my concept of the Tao comes closer to being, " like the whole of creation wrapped into one entity of intelligence and experience," than my idea of Spirit. I do believe that this universe is one network, which includes a shared intelligence. But this universe is happening within finitude and therefore not Spirit/One.

Lets get this clear, I do not believe in God, as it is commonly understood, as being something separate from my own Ultimate I Am.

Perhaps the word Spirit isn't my best choice of words when speaking to you of these things, too much baggage. I also call Spirit, the "One."

But the "One" doesn't of necessity include all mistaken ideas within itself, as a part of a fabric of the Self.

In other words, our present mistaken perspective on finitude is not a legitimate piece of the One.

I Am the One, everyone is. It is the very center of every world possible. Every world possible is imagination. It exists only in impermanance. One is Eternally Present to all imagination, and yet at the same time is not imagined itself. Does that help?

To know Thyself is to know the One.

S9

I am unsure what you mean by liberation in this context. Do you mean being liberated by the discovery of truth?

I agree that truth is ultimate, but are you supposing that we create our own versions of truth by our perceptions of it, and that is why you see it as individually liberating alone?

With your interpretation of Tao it seems that you see the universe as a procession from the collective awarenesses of all of its intelligence and experiences. This suggests to me that you believe that it is the collective consciousness of humankind that creates the universe. Not trying to put words in your mouth here S9, just trying to put your words into my mind to interpret them.

You also seem to make a clear separation of this coillectiveness and some other aspect of Spirit/ Oneness, as though there is a Oneness/ Spirit that exists outside of the universe that the collective consciousness creates.

In my effort to understand what you might be saying here this is what I come up with:

You believe that the universe is the imagination brought to reality as an impermanent instability by the collective consciousness of the One, the One being the collective of all life as the creators of this existence.

And yet, you also believe that there is a Great Spirit, for lack of a better analogy, over and above all of this that is more like your answer for the origin of things, and this is also somehow united with us all in some great continuity of eternal existence palying itself out through our imaginings.

Am I on any sort of track near what you are saying S9?

@richrf,

Dasein,

Thank you. I enjoy your writings, and the opportunity to respond to you, as well.

Language is always a difficulty, when speaking of such subtleties as we are. Word choice is often so very subjective, and connotations even more so.

On top of that, very often we can only recognize accuracy after experiencing a breakthrough in that particular area for our selves. This makes it tough to convey something new to an individual who may be traveling on the very same path as we are and yet at the very same time are traveling (on one particular point) somewhere just behind us.

Lastly, advancement upon this path is not consist, or in a uniformly straight line. If we understand one thing very well, it does not necessarily follow that we understand all thing equally as well. A person may understand one nuance of the Truth exceedingly well, and in another area just not get it. This all has to do with giving something our full attention, and interest.

I am self-educated in this area, and so consequently as I traveled from "pillar to post" I picked up words from multiple disciplines. But I am flexible because of this varied treasure hunt. So I can easily change my word choice in order to match the person I am speaking with, if they let me know that I am not making myself understood in some way. No need for you to worry, that I will take this “heads up” poorly.

Actually what I know is both intellectual as well as all about my own personal “Leap of Faith,” if you will. We must always be careful not to assume too much about another, when speaking with another. Really good correspondence between two persons is not always rapidly achieved.

I could come here to this forum and say, “I am abiding in the Unabiding”, but how many people do you think would understand me?

So yes, “I Am the I Am.” Is this what you mean by be-ing? Actually though, “Self knows Self as Self.” Ultimate Being is not oblivious to its Self like some machine.

Of course you do not continue to seek the Self after you have found the Self, on the transcendent level. But like anything Beloved Object, and it can only be a mind object to the mind, you do wish to know everything you can about it and look at it continually as it is exceedingly pleasing to the heart. It is mind that continues collecting knowledge in this way, after the fact. Self needs not collect information. Self (the One) simply IS.

Yes indeed, who you are Ultimately and where you stand are "One and the same thing" after the "leap of faith", simply because you are standing in Self.

Differences are always the toys/needs of the mind or intellect. But like food is the delight/need of the digestive system or the physical self, so ideas and conceps feed the mind. We wouldn't want to starve her needlessly now, would we?

So just like we cannot stop eating after the leap, we also cannot stop feeding the mind. Both of these would prove painful.

However I don’t believe that you can add to your mind’s entanglements simply by participating in and enjoying metaphysics once you genuinely Know Self. All I have to do, at any time, is to look directly at the Self, and it seems to magically clarify my confusion.

Let us remember that if there is “no going back” after the leap, then there is no possibility of entanglement, as going back and entanglements are the very same thing.

Many Enlightened Masters continued to write and teach up until the hour of their death, even writing a death poem within minutes of departure.

It is almost like this compassion is built right in. When you hear someone crying, and you simply must lend a helping hand.

The Buddha was called the Tathagata (teacher) because apparently this teaching urge was something natural to Him, a part of who He was in this dream. The difference was that, He was Completely Awake in this dream.

Often. I will ask questions (like any good lawyer, of which I know the answer) simple to get your spin on something or to check if we are still on the same page.

We can certainly help each other to clarify, otherwise why bother. There isn’t that much exercise or amusement in hitting little black keys with our nimble fingers. Is there?

I will answer your second post next.

S9

---------- Post added 10-11-2009 at 02:00 PM ----------

ValueRanger,

It is difficult for me to juxtapose some science articles over metaphysics. This may, no doubt, be a failing in me.

I did read the article you recommended, however.

I liked this quote: “Entanglement is actually common as soon as the system gets complicated enough."

Not bad.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

S9;

To respond to what you have written is extremely difficult. I do not wish to be offensive; however, what you have written is like a huge pot of stew on the stove. As you describe the 'stew' you tell me what the carrots, potatoes, broth, meat, onions, etc. look like and the texture. You are extremely eloquent when it comes to stew.

What you are writing about is the stew, all about the stew, as it should be. Your next step is to put the stew under the microscope and communicate about cells and cell structure. Then you will put the stew under an electron microscope and you will tell us about molecular structure. All the while you will be focusing on stew and communicating what you are reflecting on not knowing that you are communicating as if the stew is a representation of you.

I am absolutely clear that you are looking at the stew, I know stew. In the future you will notice that you are not the stew, not the pot, not the stove, not the ladle, not the cook, not the kitchen, not the house, not the world, not the universe, not that which holds the universe, you are not time, and you are not infinity. You are not all of that and yet, you are. At that point you will have nothing more to write about.

You will not want to read or write about stew. Stew has nothing to do with what you and I are talking about.

You are "the One", I am "the One", we are all "the One". There is no path and there is no philosophy. "Stew" and "philosophy" are just what we use to contain what can't be contained, they have absolutely nothing to do with who you are.

Dasein

@richrf,

Thank you Dasein, for your kind reply,

As I can see that you have my best interests at heart.

I do wonder, however, if you are able to see the irony of Your WRITING to me, that my writing to you proves something about my lack of understanding, or even how entangled I must be.

; ^ )

I owe another friend a post right now, so I will get back to you soon afterwards.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

S9;

All it proves is that you are capable of taking a course correction. It had to happen eventually. Better now than later.

Quest is the root word of question. Most people don't have the courage to question. Questioning puts who you think you are at risk. Most people hide behind "knowing the answer". You put who you thought you were on the line to find out who you are, there is no "irony" in that.

Dasein

@richrf,

Pathfinder,

Liberation is a word synonymous with Enlightenment or Realization. It does however contain the connotation (which I find quite beautiful) of a release from “wrongful identification” with the jiva (AKA ego self.) In the direct discovery of “Who We Are’ (AKA the Ultimate Self) error simply falls away. We are no longer entangled in a chain of explanations. We simply know the Self.

No indeed. Self is not any kind of creation, whatsoever. I am however saying this, there are two major perspectives. In one, we believe our selves to be a human beings seeking for the Truth. In the second perspective, which is the one I hold to, I Am the Ultimate Self, which IS Truth.

We attain enlightenment by seeing that we are the One, each one of us individually finally understands their very essences is One. The whole concept of two-ness must be dropped, so how could this possibly be a group activity?

Tao is the cosmic dream. Every dream is of one fabric. This fabric is imagination, which is similar to your nightly dreams, no different really.

Some people, mystics, see the Ultimate Tao much as I see Spirit or the One. Yes, they are right in their estimations when they have traveled far enough to understand this. However, most Taoist “STOPS” before reaching this point.

Every major religion has a mystical understanding at their most apical growth.

(For those not acquainted with this word: Apical growth is the part of a plant that is still growing, at its very tip.)

I do believe that there is a collected unconscious. But this is contained within the dream itself. This is a collective imagination. So yes, this would include collective consciousness and intelligence. Awareness belongs to Spirit only. Awareness allows this more limited finite consciousness to take place. Imagination did create the universal dream.

Metaphysics is a conscious attempt to understand this dream called finitude, so in a way the dream is studying the dream.

Like you have surmised, Ultimate Self IS completely outside of the dream, (this is Transcendent), but the dream somehow takes place within the Ultimate Self, or is allowed temporary existence. This is a paradox.

I can see your little gray cells are really working. This is a good thing, because some have said that we move towards Truth with intention. (Intention to know is the motivating force.)

In Islam it is said that as we yearn to know God, that God yearn for us to know Him even more.

If we can get around (forgive) the theistic slant of these words, they say it really quite nicely, don’t you think?

No, I believe that ‘I Am’ that Spirit, as are you. So this is not a separate God, nor is there any kind of I/Thou relationship. The word great would, of course, be entirely, too comparative. Greater than what I might ask you, if there is only One?

If finitude is simply a mistaken view, then it doesn’t actually exist outside of imagination. Some have said that Spirit dreams. But when Spirit wakes up, the dream stops or is no more. Spirit is Eternal , and the dream is not.

I think you are seeing what I am saying for the most part. But like they say, “The devil is in the details.”

Could you also share with me, pretty please, just how close is this to your way of seeing this or in fact how far apart we are?

S9

.

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96803 wrote:

Pathfinder,

Liberation is a word synonymous with Enlightenment or Realization. It does however contain the connotation (which I find quite beautiful) of a release from "wrongful identification" with the jiva (AKA ego self.) In the direct discovery of "Who We Are' (AKA the Ultimate Self) error simply falls away. We are no longer entangled in a chain of explanations. We simply know the Self.

No indeed. Self is not any kind of creation, whatsoever. I am however saying this, there are two major perspectives. In one, we believe our selves to be a human beings seeking for the Truth. In the second perspective, which is the one I hold to, I Am the Ultimate Self, which IS Truth.

We attain enlightenment by seeing that we are the One, each one of us individually finally understands their very essences is One. The whole concept of two-ness must be dropped, so how could this possibly be a group activity?

Tao is the cosmic dream. Every dream is of one fabric. This fabric is imagination, which is similar to your nightly dreams, no different really.

Some people, mystics, see the Ultimate Tao much as I see Spirit or the One. Yes, they are right in their estimations when they have traveled far enough to understand this. However, most Taoist "STOPS" before reaching this point.

Every major religion has a mystical understanding at their most apical growth.

(For those not acquainted with this word: Apical growth is the part of a plant that is still growing, at its very tip.)

I do believe that there is a collected unconscious. But this is contained within the dream itself. This is a collective imagination. So yes, this would include collective consciousness and intelligence. Awareness belongs to Spirit only. Awareness allows this more limited finite consciousness to take place. Imagination did create the universal dream.

Metaphysics is a conscious attempt to understand this dream called finitude, so in a way the dream is studying the dream.

Like you have surmised, Ultimate Self IS completely outside of the dream, (this is Transcendent), but the dream somehow takes place within the Ultimate Self, or is allowed temporary existence. This is a paradox.

I can see your little gray cells are really working. This is a good thing, because some have said that we move towards Truth with intention. (Intention to know is the motivating force.)

In Islam it is said that as we yearn to know God, that God yearn for us to know Him even more.

If we can get around (forgive) the theistic slant of these words, they say it really quite nicely, don't you think?

No, I believe that 'I Am' that Spirit, as are you. So this is not a separate God, nor is there any kind of I/Thou relationship. The word great would, of course, be entirely, too comparative. Greater than what I might ask you, if there is only One?

If finitude is simply a mistaken view, then it doesn't actually exist outside of imagination. Some have said that Spirit dreams. But when Spirit wakes up, the dream stops or is no more. Spirit is Eternal , and the dream is not.

I think you are seeing what I am saying for the most part. But like they say, "The devil is in the details."

Could you also share with me, pretty please, just how close is this to your way of seeing this or in fact how far apart we are?

S9

.

I would love to be able to discuss this further S9 as I am always on the lookout for minds that can help further my own sorting out.

I will admit to having some difficulty though in fully understandin your thoughts as you are a little, no alot, poetic in your descriptions.

I am now reading krishmanurdi, bad spelling i know, to see where his thinking meeets with yours, but as far as continuying our discussion with a comparison of our thoughts, I cannot do that without being able to more fully understand what you are saying.

If you are interested in seeing my thoughts and comparing them, you can visit my blog site, I have managed to get quite a bit of my own thoughts written down.

http://naturalogic.blogspot.com/

@richrf,

Dasein,

You are quite right. Metaphysics is a great big stew, quite a delicious stew. But I have admitted that my mind enjoys this stew, a guilty pleasure.

I have a friend that I am absolutely certain is 100% enlightened and he amuses himself with the market (Wall street.) Everyone has to do something with their time between the pages of life and death. Or do you just lie there doing nothing? No, I didn’t think so.

I do not believe that the stew represents me. I see it as a dream. If I were to identify with this dream, than it would be entanglement. I do not.

I have no doubt that you recognize the stew. I am trying my best to make it recognizable. I walk into the stew and take the hand of any friend standing within the stew, and as gently as possible I lead them out. Or at least this is my plan.

The stew doesn’t confuse me any longer. So I have no fear of becoming lost in the stew.

These friends of mine often cannot see that they are in a stew. I say, “Look, see the stew.” Next I say, “Lets get out.”

I will probably die with a pencil in my hand. Don’t ask me why. I just seem to want to write and reach out to others. I didn’t write this script.

Lead the way. What should we be writing about? I’ll put you in charge of our conversation.

I agree completely that, like you say, “You are “the One”, I am “the One”, we are all “the One”.

I do believe that you are better at understanding what you believe, than you are at seeing clearly what others say that they believe. Even when someone agrees with you, I don’t believe that you can see this. This is a kind of blindness on your part. Forgive me for speaking so plainly. Can this plain speech be a two way street between us?

S9

@richrf,

S9;

This tit for tat bores me. I will not participate in it any longer.

I wish you all the best.

Dasein

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