Know Thyself?

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96114 wrote:

Rich,

I think that you have learned that introspection is a way of feeling. It both keeps us in touch with our body and our mind.

I believe that this correspondence with different parts of our self is a good way to remain healthy, more like preventative medicine than picking up the broken pieces later, when something sends us to the hospital.

I also believe that if we want to live wisely, we really have to keep our finger on our pulse. It will tell us if what we are doing, and how we are doing it, is causing us to be happy.

Very often the body will convey something important to us, that we have either been overlooking or even trying to ignore.

S9

I thought that introspection was a way of discovering what you feel, not a way of feeling.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;96093 wrote:

But what does it mean "to know how to feel"? Feelings are spontaneous so far as I am aware. One has to learn how to think, since thinking is hard. But not to feel, since feeling takes no effort (unfortunately).

This is part of the learning process. It comes from repetition and increased awareness. There are many cultural practices to teach awareness whether it be music and singing (at least the way it is taught in Europe, not the U.S.), art, yoga, tai chi, ... even basketball and other sports. Tennis is all about developing touch, feeling, and awareness. Golf also for that matter.

Rich

---------- Post added 10-08-2009 at 10:44 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;96114 wrote:

Rich,

I think that you have learned that introspection is a way of feeling. It both keeps us in touch with our body and our mind.

I believe that this correspondence with different parts of our self is a good way to remain healthy, more like preventative medicine than picking up the broken pieces later, when something sends us to the hospital.

I also believe that if we want to live wisely, we really have to keep our finger on our pulse. It will tell us if what we are doing, and how we are doing it, is causing us to be happy.

Very often the body will convey something important to us, that we have either been overlooking or even trying to ignore.

S9

Yes. This is a specific skill that is not at all understood by western allopathic medical practitioners or anyone who use allopathic medicine. The sense of awareness of my own body, the signals that my body is giving, and the meaning of these signals. It is simple learning from practice and increasing awareness.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;96136 wrote:

This is part of the learning process. It comes from repetition and increased awareness. There are many cultural practices to teach awareness whether it be music and singing (at least the way it is taught in Europe, not the U.S.), art, yoga, tai chi, ... even basketball and other sports. Tennis is all about developing touch, feeling, and awareness. Golf also for that matter.

----- Post added 10-08-2009 at 10:44 PM ----------

Rich

But you are assuming that people do not know how they feel. But that is just what I deny. When I am happy, I know I feel happy. And, when angry, I know I feel angry. So, what is all this learning about how one feels all about?

@richrf,

richrf;96084 wrote:

These are all indications. But if you rely strictly on knowing through thinking, then I agree that you are lost. There are clues, but you are simply ignoring them. Learning to understand oneself is a learning process.

Rich

It is interesting to note that people who have been lost in the woods and had to be rescued quite often report that they felt like they were walking in a straight line, when in most cases they were actually walking in circles. I guess they didn't think they needed a compass.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;96148 wrote:

But you are assuming that people do not know how they feel. But that is just what I deny. When I am happy, I know I feel happy. And, when angry, I know I feel angry. So, what is all this learning about how one feels all about?

And through experience one learns that it is not quite this simple. There are lots of things happening, and some more subtle than others. It is like someone learning to appreciate music or art. As one learns and experiences, one becomes more aware. It takes time and practice.

Rich

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 01:37 AM ----------

TickTockMan;96164 wrote:

It is interesting to note that people who have been lost in the woods and had to be rescued quite often report that they felt like they were walking in a straight line, when in most cases they were actually walking in circles. I guess they didn't think they needed a compass.

Everything is about practice and experience. In the future, they will be more aware of their surroundings and what signals and indicators they can use to navigate. Humans navigated quiet well before the advent of the compass or any instrumentation whatsoever. It is all about awareness.

Rich

@richrf,

Ken,

This in one of those chicken/egg arguments.

Introspection is feeling, and feeling is introspection. Can’t have one, without the other.

Thought comes in afterwards only to organize. Thinking isn’t really introspection itself.

S9

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 09:13 AM ----------

Pathfinder,

Did you notice that I answered you on page 32? No pressure. I just wondered if you missed it, because of the way it showed up later on a previous bunch of postings?

I even checked back to see if I hadn't remembered to post it, one of those senior moments. ; ^ )

Peace my friend,
S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;96207 wrote:

Ken,

This in one of those chicken/egg arguments.

Introspection is feeling, and feeling is introspection. Can't have one, without the other.

Thought comes in afterwards only to organize. Thinking isn't really introspection itself.

S9

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 09:13 AM ----------

Pathfinder,

Did you notice that I answered you on page 32? No pressure. I just wondered if you missed it, because of the way it showed up later on a previous bunch of postings?

I even checked back to see if I hadn't remembered to post it, one of those senior moments. ; ^ )

S9

Peace my friend,
S9

Introspection is not feeling, so far as I understand the word. When I introspect to determine whether or not I believe the Earth is round, I have no particular feeling going on. I am just looking "into" my mind. It is what Locke called "reflection".

@richrf,

richrf;96168 wrote:

Everything is about practice and experience. In the future, they will be more aware of their surroundings and what signals and indicators they can use to navigate. Humans navigated quiet well before the advent of the compass or any instrumentation whatsoever. It is all about awareness.

Rich

But awareness is a mental process, isn't it?

Yes, humans are able to navigate successfully without the aid of compasses and other such devices, but only when they have learned how to do so. You have to know certain things, and you have to pay attention to signs, and be able to read them (i.e. interpret them) correctly or you will, literally, just be feeling your way around blindly in the dark forest.

@richrf,

Rich,

Here is the Western hemisphere many people are not in touch with their ‘Right Brain’ and the information that it can supply through the feeling/pictures. If you even mention feeling such a thing, some of the more hardheaded individuals will think that you are crazy.

I, on the other hand, believe that unless there is some correspondence between the brain’s left and right hemisphere, across the corpus callosum, we put our self at a disadvantage.

In my younger days I did a fair amount of sitting meditation. One day I saw a whirlwind of energy circling extremely rapidly in a counter clockwise motion, just below my belly button. After some medical testing to find out what was going on, it turned out that my pyloric sphincter was in spasm, and that my stomach wasn’t emptying well into my small intestine. “Strange, but true.”
Some doctor’s might have put me on an anti-psychotic if I had told them this. : ^ (

Obviously we are only beginning to understand what we are capable of knowing in this area.

So I agree with you, that being alert is a number line that travels into the extremely subtle. But we must pay close attention and try to be receptive in order to be receptive to what we are receiving. We actually block these avenues of understanding, when and if we insist that we already know what is to be known in any area of our lives.

S9

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;96260 wrote:

But awareness is a mental process, isn't it?

Yes, humans are able to navigate successfully without the aid of compasses and other such devices, but only when they have learned how to do so. You have to know certain things, and you have to pay attention to signs, and be able to read them (i.e. interpret them) correctly or you will, literally, just be feeling your way around blindly in the dark forest.

No. Awareness is quite different from what would ordinarily be called thinking. It actually precedes it. However, since you have not experienced different types of awareness, you cannot be aware of it. However, you can think about what you are not aware of yet.

Yes, you have to become aware of many things. That is what life is all about. Plenty to learn and plenty of time to do it.

Rich

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 01:09 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;96261 wrote:

But we must pay close attention and try to be receptive in order to be receptive to what we are receiving. We actually block these avenues of understanding, when and if we insist that we already know what is to be known in any area of our lives.

S9

Hi there S9,

I am a bit more relaxed about it. One can pay attention or not pay attention. There is plenty of time to do this if one wishes, and there are many things one can do instead. I find that I become more aware the more relaxed I am - even about gaining awareness.

Rich

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;96024 wrote:

Well, I had not heard that there was a philosophy of the Somoan Islands, but, if there is, they can advance it, and see whether the Harvard philosophy department wants to teach it.

The best academic departments specializing in Pacific Islanders are in Hawaii and New Zealand. There are actually courses on the subject.

Course Details

Whether Harvard takes up this little-studied subject as a course offering depends on whether they recruit a faculty member to do it. I met a professor of art history there who specializes in African art -- everyone there can teach about impressionism, but it takes the subspecialized individual to take up an understudied subject. Whether it appears in Harvard's course catalog or not is not what validates it as an academic subject.

@richrf,

richrf;80266 wrote:

Know Thyself has been attributed to many Greek Philosophers.

Heraclitus is said to have written: I have inquired of myself.

Jung says that individuation, the act of knowing yourself, begins in the second half of your life, and it starts by accepting your Shadow.

Is knowing yourself worthwhile? Why or why not? Do you try to know yourself? How do you inquire? What have you learned? Has it changed as you grew older?

Rich

Rich;

The questions you are asking have more to do with the "ground" you are standing on than anything else.

If you look in your blog you will notice that you use the words "Thyself," "myself", and "yourself," I suggest to you that somewhere in the past they were originally "Thy self," "my self," and "your self."

Notice that when you talk about "Thyself", "myself", and "yourself" it's already assumed that you and everybody else knows what you are talking about and the only thing left to do is come up with the "most accurate definition" that everyone can agree upon.

When you use "Thy self," "my self," and "your self" the first thing you notice is that "Thy", "my", and "your" are all different and "self" seems to be the same.

"Thyself", "myself", and "yourself" turns you into a definable object and closes down possibility.

"Thy self," "my self," and "your self" opens up possibility.

Your last series of questions all assume that "you" are a thing called a human being. The way you have worded them tells me (and everybody else) that you don't know who "you" are. You can't find out who "you" are by asking and getting answers to those questions.

Man has been asking those questions since way before Heraclitus so you are not alone. You, who you are, is not a definable "object" called being. You are be-ing even while you are trying to define "being." Defining "being" covers you up and is fruitless.

A much better question would be "How do I uncover be-ing."

Phenomenon is defined as "that which reveals itself, in itself." Nothing gets revealed in a definition. As a matter of fact, who you are gets covered up in a that definition.

I invite you to read my blog at Philosophy Forum - Dasein. There are 2 postings which will lead you in the right direction. One is called "Don't Pick Up The Turd" / "The Subject is the Predicate" and the other is called "Reading Heidegger." Read "Don't Pick Up The Turd" first.

Dasein

@Aedes,

Aedes;96315 wrote:

The best academic departments specializing in Pacific Islanders are in Hawaii and New Zealand. There are actually courses on the subject.

Course Details

Whether Harvard takes up this little-studied subject as a course offering depends on whether they recruit a faculty member to do it. I met a professor of art history there who specializes in African art -- everyone there can teach about impressionism, but it takes the subspecialized individual to take up an understudied subject. Whether it appears in Harvard's course catalog or not is not what validates it as an academic subject.

Perhaps he means to imply that if the subject is understudied, it's less useful and/or significant.

@Dasein,

Dasein;96323 wrote:

A much better question would be "How do I uncover be-ing."

It is a good question for discussion.

Rich

@Aedes,

Aedes;96315 wrote:

The best academic departments specializing in Pacific Islanders are in Hawaii and New Zealand. There are actually courses on the subject.

Course Details

Whether Harvard takes up this little-studied subject as a course offering depends on whether they recruit a faculty member to do it. I met a professor of art history there who specializes in African art -- everyone there can teach about impressionism, but it takes the subspecialized individual to take up an understudied subject. Whether it appears in Harvard's course catalog or not is not what validates it as an academic subject.

I thought we were talking about Somoan philosophy. I would like to hear somemoa about that.

@richrf,

richrf;96309 wrote:

No. Awareness is quite different from what would ordinarily be called thinking.

Can we agree though that awareness, regardless of when it appears, is still a process that takes place in the brain eventually even if awareness initially is in the form of a reflex, as in a spinal arc reflex (which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on this forum).

richrf;96309 wrote:

It actually precedes it. However, since you have not experienced different types of awareness, you cannot be aware of it.

When you say "you" do you mean you in a general sense, or are you referring to me specifically, as TickTockMan? And are you saying, in essence, that I can't be aware of awareness because I haven't experienced awareness, but if I were to experience awareness I would be aware of awareness?

This is all very confusing to me. Should I just let go of the reins?

richrf;96309 wrote:

However, you can think about what you are not aware of yet.

How?

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 03:50 PM ----------

kennethamy;96348 wrote:

I thought we were talking about Somoan philosophy. I would like to hear somemoa about that.

Hawaiian your list of priorities is this?

@richrf,

Ken,

When we say that we want to see how "we feel" about some particular thing, this would often refer not to just any kind of thinking but to a particular way of thinking. It has more to do with things that other people cannot see that are within us, that they are reliant upon us to report to them, things that are more intimate, like our own emotions.

(I don’t mean the actions that come out of emotions and are more obvious.)

Thinking about 'whether the world is round or not' is far less internal. It is more like fact finding, and secondarily reasoning.

So in a way we live in two worlds (at least), one is external and seemingly shared with others, and the other is internal and more personal and intimate.

Introspection IMO is looking in “intro.” This is a direction. The way that we do this, in good part, is with our feelings. Are we hot, are we cold, are we sad, are we in pain, and so on. These are sensations.

S9

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 07:57 PM ----------

Rich,

I do not force myself to pay attention to Self constantly either. That would have to be done with the mind.

What I have found is that, I can trust that whenever the mind thinks to look at Awareness/Self that it is always present and cannot possibly be lost.

Like you say this is a relaxing into the Self/Spirit.

So my finite life/dream appears to takes place just like anyone elses. To look at me, others would simply see me going about my business as usual. The only difference, and this makes 'ALL' of the difference, is that I know without a doubt, “Who I Am.”

It is not necessary to be relaxed physically or mentally in order to see awareness more. At some point Self/Spirit becomes so obvious that you can be set on fire and be burning to death, or even screaming out involuntarily in pain, and you still would know who you are, and that you are not the person burning. It is a dream person burning.

S9

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;96373 wrote:

Can we agree though that awareness, regardless of when it appears, is still a process that takes place in the brain eventually even if awareness initially is in the form of a reflex, as in a spinal arc reflex (which I believe has been discussed elsewhere on this forum).

Things are happening all over all the time. The brain is just a more sensitive, condensed aspect of the sensory system, which extends throughout the body and is totally connected to everything inside and outside the body. Attempting to separate the brain from everything else is like separating a wave in the ocean from the ocean. Can the electron wave/particle on a TV set be separated from the electron wave/particle from transmitting station?

TickTockMan;96373 wrote:

When you say "you" do you mean you in a general sense, or are you referring to me specifically, as TickTockMan? And are you saying, in essence, that I can't be aware of awareness because I haven't experienced awareness, but if I were to experience awareness I would be aware of awareness?

Yes, there are things you are not aware of yet simply because you have not developed the sensitivity for it yet. There are things happening all around us that some people are aware of and others are not. It is part of the evolving process.

TickTockMan;96373 wrote:

This is all very confusing to me. Should I just let go of the reins?

You do what you want to do. And when you are ready to investigate new things you will. And if you do not want to you will not. Everyone is different and I respect the fact that others are aware of things that I am not. I only seek to become more aware as I grow.

TickTockMan;96373 wrote:

How?

Just choose something you like to do and talk to people about it. Relax while you do it. Over time, you will increase your awareness. You learn new things. There is nothing magical. It is simple, ordinary learning. It is just that you haven't learned everything yet. Lots of stuff to learn about.

Rich

@richrf,

Aedes,

Sometimes I feel like a subspecialized individual speaking about an understudied subject, (what a great way to put it), when I speak to others about the metaphysic of transcendence. ; ^ )

S9

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 09:02 PM ----------

TT Man,

Getting Rich to agree with you that awareness takes place in the brain won’t make it true. It will only make it an agreement.

The reason that some of us use the word “Awareness,” is to differentiate it from thinking, or to point out the fact that it is something else, entirely.

It was discussed elsewhere by me, and it appears that you misunderstood me. It is very subtle and takes time to see it.

S9

@richrf,

S9,

You seem to be tripping in a singularity where you are the center and trying to absorb everything around you.

I would have to read more of your thinking in order to make any further observations.

I understand that you are enjoying an ability to perceive some of the mysteries around you in ways that others are not yet able, but perceiving and actually being able to discern them is two different things. Before you can understand the truth of these things that you are trying to grasp, you need to make certain that your mind is open to their revelation and not burdened by your desperate desire to claim them for your own definitions.

These truths cannot be assigned their realities, their realities must be recognized. One become vulnerable to misinterpretation as soon as one closes the door to their revelations.

This is what I meant about always being prepared to discover that the truth we think we have discovered is false and learn the truth of our mistake. As soon as we believe we think we know the truth we have failed to recognize it. We must keep that door open at all times so that if we are wrong, and the truth presents itself, we will be able to receive it and learn of our mistake. But when we conclude that we have discovered the truth and close that door, if we are wrong and the truth presents itself, we will never know because that door will not be open to us.

We must be like the scientist in his lab working on an experiment. We may do that test a thousand times and always come up with the same result. But if we come to a conclusion and on the one thousand and one, attempt we get a different result, how would we have known the truth if we had stopped at the thousandth attempt. Exceptional scientists are keen to never draw conclusions. They will make calculated observations and suggest the odds of their findings being accurate, but they do not close their minds to the next attempt bringing a new revelation.

These are the scientists that discover the truths that their less open minded brethren fail to reach.

We must look further, always further. Looking inward is great for concentrating and focusing your mind to open it to revelations, but the revelations are found out there. Not within us.

Meditation and introspection should be for focus and concentration on the revelation of the truths that exist around us.

This spirit that you speak of is just reality, creation, the result of the First Cause which began everything. Within it are found many truths but they are not revealed easily. The mind must be evolved to a certain degree to be able to discern many higher truths. Introspection and inner focus helps us to tune the mind and clear our thinking. It helps us to reach the consciousness that bears our life force, where we can access the evolved wisdom and logic ability to help us grasp these higher truths.

I think what you are experiencing is a strong ability to focus on your consciousness, but because of your desire to contain that as some sort of inner self, you diminish its ability and fail to wrap your hands around the truths that it is trying to reveal to you.

Your consciousness is desperately trying to allow you to access its storage, but you are too caught up in the enjoyment of your inner awareness of the real world around you to take hold of what the consciousness has to reveal to you. This is normal by the way, it is like the excitement of the child in the toy store for the first time. They are enamored by all of the toys and so excited that they cannot focus on any one of them.

I think that if you could slow down and deliberately shut out the 'event of realizing creation', you would be able to focus more exactly on the life force within you to draw from its faunt, tap its resources, and discover what it is trying to reveal to you.

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