Know Thyself?

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TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 01:07 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100411 wrote:
TT Man,

You shouldn't want to call anything by any particular name without proof. This is vital.


Does this mean that when you earlier called life a "waking dream" that you have proof of this?

Subjectivity9;100411 wrote:
This is not really being totally receptive to a new idea, is it? Even if you think that I am absolutely right, you have some idea about me giving the truth to you, which incidentally is impossible. We all must find this, sooner or later, within our own self.


On the contrary. I'm very receptive to new ideas. I'm just not credulous. Also, I'm big on benefits, either for myself or for others. Hence my question. Which you haven't answered yet, by the way.

Subjectivity9;100411 wrote:
Everything we think is quite full of judgments, even if we do not know this at the time. For instance, when you pick between two cars, you have already made up your mind that one of these cars will fill your needs. This is a judgment.


What's wrong with making judgements? Judgements are often true, aren't they?

Subjectivity9;100411 wrote:
Funny thing though, when you finally do Realize, you will understand that you have been looking at your Self all of your life, every single second, and yet you never realized what you were looking at.


I'm not sure what you are saying here. That everything I look at is myself? Even rocks and trees and other people? Or that it is my self I am looking at when I look at myself?

Cheers,
Tock
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 09:46 am
@richrf,
TT Man,

I think that if you would watch your own life very closely, without preconceptions of what you might find, you would have your proof. I have my proof. I have Certainty. But like I said previously, this Truth/Self isn’t something that I can capture in words, tie it up with a nice little ribbon, and simply hand it over to you, all complete and done for you. There is no savior. The ball is in our own court on this enterprise.

I think perhaps you are quite receptive to new ideas, wordy ideas. But this is a whole new ball game altogether.

I am asking you to look directly, without using the tool of ideas, in order to capture this. This is not an object. You cannot hold it in you mind. This is your very Self, a far more subtle way of knowing.

First you have to see your Eternal Self and know this Essential Self to be your own very Self, and only then can your mind go on to figure out, of what use is Self.

Remember, what you are asking is, “Of what use is my Essential Self to this smaller imaginary self,” in my way of seeing this.

We cannot be Spiritually greedy, trying to own everything we come across, and thereby turn this Spiritual path, this quest for the Essential Truth, into what has been called “Spiritual Materialism.”

There is nothing wrong with making judgments. The discriminating mind is a valuable asset in this life. I was merely pointing out that your assertion that “you were not making judgments” was not true; it was a misunderstanding on your part.

The mind is a judging machine, and rightfully so, as it is part of its job description within finitude. But we are now going to examine Eternity. The first thing we must do is to step right out of your mind and her many judgments, and simply look directly.

I am not saying that everything you look at is you. That would be Pantheism. I am saying that every thing/object/thought that you look at is not your Essential Self. You pretty much have to back into your own “Being,” realize pure awareness, and take your seat in that. You are Pure Awareness without any dependence upon any object whatsoever.

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 10:47 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100473 wrote:
You are Pure Awareness without any dependence upon any object whatsoever.

S9


But, isn't my brain an object?
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 11:02 am
@richrf,
TT Man,

Yes indeed, your brain is an object in this finite/mental world. But Pure Awareness (AKA your Essential Self) is not dependent upon the brain.

The brain is more like a radio receiver, whereas your Essential Self is more the Radio Station. If the radio goes out of commission, dies, the Station/Pure Awareness remains unharmed.

When you Realize Self, you will also realize the extent of what Self Is, Self is Pure Being.

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 12:01 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100488 wrote:
TT Man,

Yes indeed, your brain is an object in this finite/mental world. But Pure Awareness (AKA your Essential Self) is not dependent upon the brain.

The brain is more like a radio receiver, whereas your Essential Self is more the Radio Station. If the radio goes out of commission, dies, the Station/Pure Awareness remains unharmed.

When you Realize Self, you will also realize the extent of what Self Is, Self is Pure Being.

S9


But isn't "being" the same as "existing"?

Isn't saying "When you Realize Self" just another way of saying you realize that you exist?
It seems to me the realization that one exists must be dependent on the brain, otherwise,
what is doing the realizing?

How is awareness (pure or otherwise) possible without a brain?

The radio receiver/brain analogy does not work, as radio receivers are not capable of awareness. Brains are.

So unless you are saying that our brains are not capable of awareness (which I think we would have to agree that they are if either one of us expect our arguments to be taken seriously) I don't see how the idea of some outside force transmitting information to us can be plausibly argued.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 09:55 am
@richrf,
TT Man,

I think that the words 'being' and 'existing,' for the most part, are used interchangeably in the finite world. But when people start speaking about Being, as in Eternal Being, than these word change their stripes contextually.

There are no words just laying around waiting to be used in order to describe Eternity, or Eternal Being, so practicality forces us to use the same words only differently when understood that the subject material has changed also. Since most language is dualistic and Eternity is not dualistic, this adds one more difficulty factor to the stew.

Realizing your Eternal Self isn’t the same thing as saying you are realize/comprehend your ego personhood. They dwell in separate dimensions, although simultaneously. Ego self is superimposed upon Eternal Self and burrows its life force from the Eternal. Finitude is like an echo, insubstantial in its self.

You are really sure that the brain is the guy in charge. He is not, any more than your lungs are. The body comes up and goes down within Pure Consciousness. This Pure Consciousness is something that you must look for and finally discover as your “Me.”

When we are very young, we feel immortal. This is the truth. But, we are trained out of this truth by well meaning, and yet confused, people pointing out that the body dies. If we were the body, than we would in fact die. But, we are not. Look and find within yourself that which remains Eternal and isn’t subject to change.

This, above, is the kind of thing that you can hear a thousand and one times and actually never do it. Then one day you do.

I am the hen pecking on the outside of your shell, little chicken. One day the egg will crack open.

The radio receiver does work, because the brain is not capable of Awareness. The brain only borrows Awareness. The brain tries to own, what is not its to own. The brain is a thief, or rather a pretender to the throne.

I cannot force you to take anything seriously. I am certainly not going to say any untruth to keep you interested.

This life force is not transmitted from the outside. This force is dead center within you. What is outside, a little like the hurricane around the eye, is this mental debris that you insist upon identifying with.

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 03:59 pm
@Subjectivity9,
I gather information by asking questions.

Here are some that occur to me, in no particular order:

1) What is the opposite of eternity?

2) How does the brain use awareness if it is not capable of awareness?

3) Can "Eternal Self" be experienced?

4) If the brain is not capable of awareness, as you say, what is the brain's function?

5) Can I experience sitting in a chair I am not aware of?

6) If awareness does not take place in the brain, how is awareness experienced?

Subjectivity9;100661 wrote:
TT Man,
I am the hen pecking on the outside of your shell, little chicken. One day the egg will crack open.


This made me laugh so hard that milk shot out of my nose. Which was disturbing, as I was not drinking milk.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 04:27 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

(1) Eternity is the One. It has no opposite.

All of finitude, everything else has opposites and therefore we call finitude by the name of duality.

(2) Usually to save confusion, it is said that the brain has "consciousness of" (as in consciousness of subjects and objects.) When the brain borrows Awareness, it manifests as “consciousness of,” which is not quite the same as Pure Awareness. So in a sense in this contextual word usage, the brain is not capable of Awareness. "Consciousness of" comes and goes much like when I hit you on the head really hard, however Awareness in this contextual usage does not alter in any way, ever.

(3) Self is experienced by the Self constantly. It is not the brain that witnesses Self.

(4) The brain’s function is to witness the dream world called finitude. The brain can only know what is not the Self. The brain can however elude to the Self and point where one must look.

(5) You can be “conscious of” sitting in a chair. The brain will inform you of this.

(6) Awareness is experienced intrinsically. It is previous to the brain and her thoughts.

I believe the reason that you are stumbling over my explanations is because you identify with the mind/body as being your self. You cannot see how anything I am saying is applicable to your present experience. Look deeper. Find the Self that is not brain dependent. It is right there, all of the time.

Namaste,
S9
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 05:15 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100709 wrote:
(1) Eternity is the One. It has no opposite.

Yes, 1 is in flux, so "eternity" is a more or less proposition.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 05:26 pm
@richrf,
ValueRanger,

When you say that Eternity is in flux, in what way do you mean this? Do you mean fluctuating? Do you realize, if in fact you do mean this, that fluctuation would mean Eternity changes?

Also what do you mean by Eternity is more or less proposition? I’m afraid that goes right over my little head.

Thanx,
S9
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 10:17 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100921 wrote:
ValueRanger,

When you say that Eternity is in flux, in what way do you mean this? Do you mean fluctuating? Do you realize, if in fact you do mean this, that fluctuation would mean Eternity changes?

Also what do you mean by Eternity is more or less proposition? I'm afraid that goes right over my little head.

Thanx,
S9

Is change constant, and does human "eternity" change?

You can wiki Flux... unless you refuse to change?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 05:37 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100411 wrote:
TT Man,

You shouldn't want to call anything by any particular name without proof. This is vital.

That is why the Zen masters so often say, "Don't look at my finger (AKA my words), look where I am pointing (with my words.)

This is a participator's sport. You personally look, and you personally investigation, and then you personally discover your very Self (both Eternal, Immediate and Intimate.

All imagination takes place within the mind. What I am pointing at, Thyself, is outside of the mind, totally transcendent.

What you must do eventually is to look with what is often called "bare attention," that is attention naked of preconception. This will reveal to you, what you need to know.

Everything we think is quite full of judgments, even if we do not know this at the time. For instance, when you pick between two cars, you have already made up your mind that one of these cars will fill your needs. This is a judgment.

When you look at what I am saying about dreams, you probably think "I am not dreaming," or "S9 is wrong." Or you think, "I am staying right where I am until S9 gives me a good reason to change." These are all judgments.

This is not really being totally receptive to a new idea, is it? Even if you think that I am absolutely right, you have some idea about me giving the truth to you, which incidentally is impossible. We all must find this, sooner or later, within our own self.

Since what I am speaking of here, Self, is impossible to actually put into words, all that we can hope for is an insight of sorts and your own sudden noticing the your Self.

Words can sometime bring us to this point, where we are face to face with Self, but they cannot accompany us over too the other side.

Funny thing though, when you finally do Realize, you will understand that you have been looking at your Self all of your life, every single second, and yet you never realized what you were looking at.

Namaste,
S9



There is two realizations of self; the physiological and the psychological realizations.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 09:44 am
@richrf,
ValueRanger,

In finitude it does seem that change is constant. But, I am not sure that we actually know what change is? One might even ask if it is the landscape was constant, and it is only mind that appears to move.

Science builds so much upon unfounded premises.

If humanity is a fixture within finitude and Eternity is not, orin fact Eternity is outside of finitude, I am not sure if you can actually point to something called human eternity? Even infinity is questionable.

Okay, I went to wiki and read. Now what? Do you have a point to build upon my efforts?

S9
 
ValueRanger
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 10:30 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;101003 wrote:
ValueRanger,

In finitude it does seem that change is constant. But, I am not sure that we actually know what change is? One might even ask if it is the landscape was constant, and it is only mind that appears to move.

Science builds so much upon unfounded premises.

If humanity is a fixture within finitude and Eternity is not, orin fact Eternity is outside of finitude, I am not sure if you can actually point to something called human eternity? Even infinity is questionable.

Okay, I went to wiki and read. Now what? Do you have a point to build upon my efforts?

S9

Perhaps it's more important for you, at your later stages in life, to have more of a building effort than I?

I do well in balancing the dialectical differentials in life's flux. I can easily oppose your lessening of science into a greater foundational premise - as failure is key to success in trial-and-error, scientific method.

It is when people like you, who have thrived in the tools of the past, continually fail to shift to newer sciences, so you can better usher in the next generations, through decades of wisdom.

But perhaps this is apropos to the functionality of a philosophy forum? At such a distance where proximal value addition is deficient, mayhap the essential data you represent here is best failed toward younger successes?

Or is this just more axiomatic dialectics - near or far - begging for subjective trajectories?
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 11:42 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;100709 wrote:
TT Man,

(1) Eternity is the One. It has no opposite.



I don't know what "the One" means. Is eternity infinite?
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 12:14 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

The One is the One Self, which is beyond dualism. Duality requires two, as in Yin/Yang, or up/down, or in/out. It is what the Buddhist call, “Co-dependent Arising.” No one thing in duality is completely self-sufficient, or can stands alone.

On the other hand, the One/Self is completely Whole/Complete unto Its Self, and requires no thing outside of the One in order to be Complete.

No, Eternity is beyond/outsife of time, and is not lineal. Infinity however is a measure of time. It is a long, long, long, long time. To we humans, infinity appears as forever time or endless. But we have no way of knowing if this is in fact the case, that it does not end. Of course we must understand that infinity also travel back to an unknown beginning as well.

I know the scientists speak of a Big Bang. But obviously something; either material or energy preceded this event. Otherwise we would have to say that the Big Bang came out of nothing. Even science isn’t that arrogant, is it?

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 12:49 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;101297 wrote:
TT Man,

The One is the One Self, which is beyond dualism. Duality requires two, as in Yin/Yang, or up/down, or in/out. It is what the Buddhist call, "Co-dependent Arising." No one thing in duality is completely self-sufficient, or can stands alone.

On the other hand, the One/Self is completely Whole/Complete unto Its Self, and requires no thing outside of the One in order to be Complete.

No, Eternity is beyond/outsife of time, and is not lineal. Infinity however is a measure of time. It is a long, long, long, long time. To we humans, infinity appears as forever time or endless. But we have no way of knowing if this is in fact the case, that it does not end. Of course we must understand that infinity also travel back to an unknown beginning as well.

I know the scientists speak of a Big Bang. But obviously something; either material or energy preceded this event. Otherwise we would have to say that the Big Bang came out of nothing. Even science isn't that arrogant, is it?

S9


How are you aware of all these things you seem to be saying?

In many ways, it seems to me that you are asserting that you don't exist, yet you are aware of existing.

The One, by its very definition, cannot only be non-dual, it cannot be pluralized. So from where does my consciousness arise if it is not separate from yours?

It seems to me that "The One" cannot manifest more than one awareness and still be one, even if, as you say, the eternity within which it abides is outside of time, which, in itself, is expressly dualistic. If it is outside of time, then there must be a time for it to be outside of.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 02:40 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

In the very beginning, I read a lot of what I am telling you now. It is scattered across/on top of the many great religions of this world. People have been both reasoning and contemplating these issues of metaphysics for many centuries.

I learned a good deal about the mind through both meditation and personal investigation of my own mind. But, I was doubly blessed to have traveled for many decades with a Spiritual friend, who was both keen of mind, and later very advanced in his understanding and finally 100% Enlightened.

Now, I am looking right at the Eternal Self, and it tells me everything I need to know.

I assert that S9 exists as a dream figure only. I, the Self, however am Eternally Present, as is your very Eternal Self. This is because there are seemingly many dream personalities, but there is only One Self.

Some people try to explain how duality is really a unity, in order to get around this seeming problem. But that is not true. The dream is one matrix made up on many conceptual parts, but the dream is not equal to the One, and does not define the One. The dream is just a dream. The One is not a jigsaw puzzle of parts, is not multiple personalities all stuck together, or even pieces of this dream. Parts do not have any true substance outside of the mind’s thinking them up.

We are not really trying to figure out if there is a dream that comes up, or where it comes from. It makes little difference one way or the other, because the dream is only imagination. What we really want to know is, “Who am I?” “Am I Real?” And, “Am I Eternal?” Or, “Am I, in fact, a part of some imaginary dream, and totally insubstantial.” Is it not?

Obviously the One can and does manifest many vessels that this One Awareness can fill with life, but only temporarily. It is a little like the One Sun’s many rays. The rays shoot out from the Sun and slowly dissipate. The rays are not equal to the Sun.

Words make it difficult not to say half-truths. The One/Self is actually not outside of anything. The One/Self is Everywhere Present, or Omnipresent. It is mind that comes up within the One as a dream. This dream is both the dreamer and his dream united. Neither of these is the actual fully Awake Self.

It is a little like if you were hypnotized and completely sure that you were a chicken.

I would come up to you and say, “Hi Mr. Chicken. I have some good news for you, you are not a chicken and you don’t have to lay any more eggs.”

You would then look at me, and say, “Of course, I am a chicken, why else would you call me Mr. Chicken?”

I would then say, “I called you Mr. Chicken in order to get your attention.” You would then say, “If I wasn’t a chicken, then how could I stop laying eggs?” See what I mean?

How do you get a hypnotized chicken to see he isn’t a chicken? Everything you said would not seem quite right to Mr. Chicken. It would probably be impossible.

So next you would ask him to investigate. Can you find any feathers on yourself, you might ask? And so on…

Remember this. Dreams are always pretty complete. If they require something, you will dream it into place. So if time is a requirement, you will dream there is time. This does not however prove that there is something called time outside of the dream, any more than you can continue to fly after a dream of flying, when you wake up.

There must be some part of us that reacts to this message of non-chickeness. Because so often even though confused, we come back and back for more. Finally, sleep grow thin, and things begin to make sense.

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 06:26 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;101329 wrote:


I assert that S9 exists as a dream figure only. I, the Self, however am Eternally Present, as is your very Eternal Self. This is because there are seemingly many dream personalities, but there is only One Self.

S9


I can see the appeal of this belief system . . . the idea that one can continue on somehow after the death of the body. It certainly seems more palatable than the alternative - that is, the idea that when one is dead, one is gone, and there is no more. No consciousness, no memory, nothing. It is difficult to even imagine nothing, as how can one be at all objective about what does not exist?

This, I think, is a large part of the appeal of mainstream religious thought also; that somehow there is "life after death." Even the merging of one's self with some sort of "cosmic consciousness" would be at least some sort of continuation of self. Even the loss of autonomy seems preferable to non-existence!

However, it all seems very subjective to me. And yes, I know, that is a subjective observation on my part!

Perhaps the problem I have is that I keep looking for some form of objectivity in your explanations, but I am not finding any. Surely they must be there though, as purely subjective observations seem a weak foundation upon which to build a belief system, offering no greater level of veracity than does faith or even belief.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 07:37 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

Because you are a thinking man, you would have to think this in the beginning. You are so habitually reliant upon your mind to give you the truth, and the mind says, “Get something objective. I need objects to juggle and make sense with”

Also, because death scares the hell out of mind, mind says, “This makes sense, fear of death has this person running for cover.”

But this body of S9’s will die. I am not spared illness, or old age in this dream. So mind should certainly take this set of circumstances into account, when accusing me of seeking the easy way out.

So what exactly do I gain? I gain my very Self, the truth of this Self, and freedom.

Right about here your ego self will step in and say, "If you tough it out, TT Guy, buy into the your own ugly but true story, than you are indeed both clever and also very special. You are too brave to run for cover.

But, is this true?

If so, are the most deeply depressed people on earth, even more special than you are? Just what if the pleasant story is also the true story? Do you think that could be possible. Does truth have to be ugly?

Personally, I never liked the idea of simply existing forever. I wanted to really know who I was, and what this was all about. I wanted the truth even if it hurt.

Just because this answer isn’t summed up in words, doesn’t make it any less real, either.

I actually find the story of death without continuance rather restful, believe it or not. That is exactly what will happen to S9, the ego personality.

What Spirit Self was, used to be fuzzy to me. I only had descriptions, much like you do now. So, I can well understand you confusion in this. But, I promise you this. “Just look, and you will find.” And, you will be glad that you did.

My “Spiritual Me,” is as familiar to me now, as that guy who looks back at you from the mirror every morning is to you. I am really acquainted with my Spiritual Self. It is very satisfying and true freedom.

S9
 
 

 
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