Know Thyself?

@richrf,

S9,

That web address I left to my blog was inaccurate. This is the new address and you can also click on it in my signature.

Natural Logic

@richrf,

Dasein,

I am truly sorry if I have said something to you, which you found offensive. I feel that you had a lot to offer us here. I, for one, was looking forward to learning from you in many ways. You are obviously far advanced, and well versed on and in this path.

Perhaps you will think/feel differently about this present decision with time. Please don’t think that I have closed my door against you.

Respectfully,
S9

---------- Post added 10-12-2009 at 10:52 AM ----------

Pathfinder,

I invite you, anytime I wax too poetic for you, to ask me to translate. I would be more than glad to do so. I don’t know how many times I had to hear the exact same thing said over and over in multiple ways before seeing the light on some concept. Sometimes new ideas seem like they are from off-planet.

Krishnamurti is a very bright fellow. Some people adore him for his keenness of mind.

His life story is quite interesting too. Madame Blavatsky and her group tried to train him up from childhood to be a savior of sorts for the world. He was too bright as an adult (even after what must have amounted to something close to brainwashing) to buy into this. This in itself, his breaking such mental chains, is amazing.

His books are quite numerous. But to be compared with such a man should certainly prove interesting. I think we will both learn from your endeavor. So I can only thank you for your effort.

I am a really bad at spelling. Esp. if it is words like Egypt. Give me a break!

Here is a little trick I learned along the way. I go up to Google and write my best attempt at how to spell something. Google then immediately comes back and says, ”Did you mean this word?” Google then spells my aborted attempt at spelling a word, only correctly for me. Google is a really good speller.

I will get over to see your blog spot, thank you. I was having trouble with getting to that old address before.

S9

@richrf,

S9 I am not sure if it is a setting that you must acquire in your user page, but there is a spellchecker that is in all of my posts. I dont even know how or if I set it up,lol.

@Pathfinder,

It's always interesting to come back to the forum after a weekend of playing and hiking in the wilderness to see what's been added to an ongoing thread such as this.

After wading through many new posts, and revisiting a few old posts, I notice that the word 'truth' is frequently used, often in conjunction with the word 'ultimate,' as in 'ultimate truth.'

The question that keeps nagging me is not "what is the ultimate truth," as I have seen no indication that this question can ever be answered. Some of you think otherwise, so for the time being, and in the context of what I would like to ask, let's define 'truth' as being whatever it is you believe you are seeking, and 'ultimate' as the final answer, beyond which there are no more answers at all. Is that acceptable for now?

Now, I have two questions, which I think (or at least hope) can be answered by any of ye truthseekers out there who care to answer:

1) What is your intent for seeking the ultimate truth?

2) Assume you have found the ultimate truth. Now what?

One rule, which as the one who is asking I insist be followed: You are not allowed to answer with another question.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;

There is no "the truth." "The truth" is what humanity distracts themselves with instead of doing the work of "uncovering" who they are. When you are be-ing who you are, you are "be-ing true" to who you are, authentic. When you are not be-ing who you are you look for "truth".

Dasein

@Dasein,

Dasein;96922 wrote:

TickTockMan;

There is no "the truth." "The truth" is what humanity distracts themselves with instead of doing the work of "uncovering" who they are. When you are be-ing who you are, you are "be-ing true" to who you are, authentic. When you are not be-ing who you are you look for "truth".

Dasein

Are you describing your truth, or answering my questions?

@richrf,

Its pretty clear what it is.

Dasein

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;96917 wrote:

It's always interesting to come back to the forum after a weekend of playing and hiking in the wilderness to see what's been added to an ongoing thread such as this.

After wading through many new posts, and revisiting a few old posts, I notice that the word 'truth' is frequently used, often in conjunction with the word 'ultimate,' as in 'ultimate truth.'

The question that keeps nagging me is not "what is the ultimate truth," as I have seen no indication that this question can ever be answered. Some of you think otherwise, so for the time being, and in the context of what I would like to ask, let's define 'truth' as being whatever it is you believe you are seeking, and 'ultimate' as the final answer, beyond which there are no more answers at all. Is that acceptable for now?

Now, I have two questions, which I think (or at least hope) can be answered by any of ye truthseekers out there who care to answer:

1) What is your intent for seeking the ultimate truth?

2) Assume you have found the ultimate truth. Now what?

One rule, which as the one who is asking I insist be followed: You are not allowed to answer with another question.

First of all me defiontion:

Truth is what has actually taken place in the past as opposed to what has not happened.

1. I seek the truth to learn from it and to see what knowledge it may reveal.

2. Upon discovering what could be truth I then seek to discover in what ways it may be applicable and beneficial to my life and how it may bring me to higher degrees of understanding and wisdom..

@Dasein,

Dasein;96922 wrote:

TickTockMan;

There is no "the truth." "The truth" is what humanity distracts themselves with instead of doing the work of "uncovering" who they are.
Dasein

Dasein;96927 wrote:

Its pretty clear what it is.

Dasein

Not really. It seems as though you are saying "the truth is that there is no truth."

Perhaps I'm just thick-witted, but I fail to see the difference between someone "uncovering who they are" and someone "seeking the truth," in light of my provisional definition of truth as "whatever it is you believe you are seeking."

Anyway, I feel as though my initial questions are being derailed. I was hoping for a broad spectrum of responders.

@richrf,

Welcome back, TT Man,
I missed you.

I believe that there is a big difference between a final truth and Ultimate Truth, for starters. A final truth is one that you gather through accumulation of knowledge. Ultimate Truth, at least in the way that I am using it, is a Truth unto itself. It is not accumulated, but rather a whole as it is and always was. Sorry if this seems like I am quibbling. But it is important to understand this, if you ever hope to understand what is meant by Transcendence (AKA Enlightenment or Liberation.)

That being said:

What I believed I was seeking at first, when I set out in search of truth definitely isn’t what I found, when I found Ultimate Truth. But you are right in this. There are no answers regarding Ultimate Truth beyond Knowing Ultimate Truth itself.

There are however many lesser truths still out there to discover daily “Like is it true that you can see Paris, and die?” Or would I enjoy skin diving off Hawaii? Are we entering a financial depression here is the USA, and will it be worldwide? Or intellectual questions like does the human animal have free will, what is free will, and if I do have free will, how much, and how does it manifest?

(1) I am no longer seeking Ultimate Truth. I am a finder of Ultimate Truth. But originally I was seeking Ultimate Truth because I felt a real lack of meaning in our everyday life. Perhaps this was a deficit in me, I didn’t know at the time. But nevertheless this need to know had me hooked.
(2)Now nothing. After finding Ultimate Truth, I pretty much live my life like anyone else waiting for the last bell. I try to enjoy each of these moments left to me as best I can, and find some "actualization" (Maslow) along the way.

Perhaps this is the biggest change to take place in my life, I am taking life exceedingly lightly. I know who I am and in know this, I also know who I am not. I know that I am not this dream/this finitude. I am Awake in this dream, and merely playing. (A little like virtual reality.)

This is a little like when you get old enough to know that there is actually no boogie man in your bedroom closet, when the light go out at night.

Now I know, having worked in Crisis Intervention myself, that some might say that I have simply been cured of some mental malady. But you will just have to take my word on this, how I feel, it certainly doesn’t appear that way to me. And believe me, I have looked at this closely to see if I was wrong. I don’t just feel better altogether. I feel like I have been let out of a cage. The cage was my limited finite self or what some call an ego structure.

There was a time when I would find a truth that seemed satisfying, at least temporarily. But soon, maybe a day, maybe a month would pass, and I would be questioning again, dissatisfied.

It has been a number of years now, and I no longer question this. However, (A paradox) I have remained receptive in this way. Ultimate Truth continues to fill you up, not with word answers, but a deepening sense of satisfaction. This may be limitless.

Questions?

S9

@richrf,

Pathfinder,

If truth took place in the past, and you must look back in order to find it, are you saying that truth is a memory?

Or are you saying that truth is a product of reasoning?

If man had no memory and lived exclusively in the present, would there be no possibility of truth in your estimation?

So what would Ultimate Truth be than, in your estimation?

Inquiring minds want to know.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;97021 wrote:

Pathfinder,

If truth took place in the past, and you must look back in order to find it, are you saying that truth is a memory?

Or are you saying that truth is a product of reasoning?

If man had no memory and lived exclusively in the present, would there be no possibility of truth in your estimation?

So what would Ultimate Truth be than, in your estimation?

Inquiring minds want to know.

S9

well IMHO,

There is no IF about the truth taking place in the past S9. Whatever happened in the past, is what happened. That is the truth. No assumption of any other possibility can change that. No other imaginative supposition can alter what actually took place as it has already been done. And no deliberate ignorance or head burying in delusion will make anything that has already happened unhappen.

There is no IF. Some thing happened, and whatever that was is the truth.

Man's inability to recall any of it does not mean that it may not have happened. Man's inabilities do not alter truth. Their ability to reason also does not alter what has already taken place.

The Ultimate truth is that man has no affect on the reality of truth. It is what it is despite man's ability or inability to comprehend it. What has happened is a truth that man cannot walk around or refuse to accept. The only thing a man can do with truth is leave it behind it and live with its affect.

The real question here is should we seek the truth of a matter to learn from it or to try to prove it wrong? Where do we place the priority? And when do we conclude on a a truth? Why do we need to know the truth to move on a certain path? is it necessary?

@richrf,

Pathfinder,

See, this is a big difference between us. I see everything taking place right here in this present moment. Even the past is only a memory in the present moment.

I can understand how you might easily feel that truth would be found in the past, it only seems sensible, because you think every event has already happened and can therefore be easily look at or examined, or even because it is already formed or is done forming it will no longer change on you. But any police offficer will tell you how unreliable memory is, when investigating a witness.

Not only that but we remember things all mixed up with our opinions and emotions, not to mention later suggestions from others. Memories very easily lose their integrity.

They are even finding that emotional memories may be compartmentalized in this peculiar way. You may have to be similarly emotional to remember certain emotional memories. Crazy, I know, but nevertheless may be true.

In psychiatric settings, they even found that in speaking with patients about what happened to them, an authority figure like a psychologist could unintentionally alter a person’s memory, because these poor persons wanted the approval of the psychologist. It simply happened with out any intention by either party.

I think too, that history is based in good part on the opinion of the historian. How could it not be? Even with things happening right this second we get different opinions from different people. How much more so, would it be possible to embellish or even make things up, given few facts, when you weren’t even there?

Ultimate Truth, however, as the mystics say,is always in the Immediate Here and Now.

I do agree with you that Ultimate Truth is not subject to man’s ability to comprehend it. But Ultimate Truth is a more Immediate Presence that is fully Alive. Memory is a dead thing.

I think, “You have the tail wagging the dog.”

There are actually two viable methods for seeking truth: One way is to look right at Truth through intention, this is often called contemplation, and the 2nd way is to disprove or eliminate everything that is not truth, Neti/Neti, Not this/Not This goes on until all that is left standing is Truth.

Where we place our priority may very well be decided for us, by our being the particular character that we are.

S9

@richrf,

I guess my question to you would be how does a person's inaccurate memory recall or a historian's inaccurate accounting have any affect on the actual happening of a past event?

@richrf,

Pathfinder,

Your question made me think of that old question, “If a tree in the forest falls, and no one was there to witness it, did it actually happen?”

In other words, is any event an actual event that, if anyone were to look at it would be seen in the same by all? Of course not, you have said as much yourself, so how can it hold an implicit truth? Everything we see, and everything that we reason about, actually ends up being pretty subjective in nature. In this way, our thinking creates its own limited truth.

(Now I am not speaking about Ultimate Truth here, that has a different nature altogether.)

The truth is that we don’t event know if there is an out there for us, a world that we are actually participating in daily. We may even be lying in a hospital somewhere in a comma dreaming all of our life’s events, (AKA truths.) How could we possibly prove otherwise?

Ramana, “We don’t actually live in the world. We live in our head.” (A favorite quote of mine.)

So how in fact do we know any history, accept for our own personal history, which is a mighty limited pallet and just crammed full of opinion.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;97401 wrote:

Pathfinder,

Your question made me think of that old question, "If a tree in the forest falls, and no one was there to witness it, did it actually happen?"

Yes. You just said it did.

Subjectivity9;97401 wrote:

In other words, is any event an actual event that, if anyone were to look at it would be seen in the same by all? Of course not, you have said as much yourself, so how can it hold an implicit truth? Everything we see, and everything that we reason about, actually ends up being pretty subjective in nature. In this way, our thinking creates its own limited truth.

If you and I are walking down the street, and a dog runs by, how are we going to see that differently?

Later, if I say to you, "Oh, look at the dead bird," are you going to start looking up in the sky and asking, "Where?"

Subjectivity9;97401 wrote:

The truth is that we don't event know if there is an out there for us, a world that we are actually participating in daily. We may even be lying in a hospital somewhere in a comma dreaming all of our life's events, (AKA truths.) How could we possibly prove otherwise?

So what difference does it make?

Subjectivity9;97401 wrote:

Ramana, "We don't actually live in the world. We live in our head." (A favorite quote of mine.)

You must have an awfully large head, to hold all of that.

Subjectivity9;97401 wrote:

So how in fact do we know any history, accept for our own personal history, which is a mighty limited pallet and just crammed full of opinion.S9

If you believe you may be in a hospital bed in a coma, dreaming, how can you say that you even know your own personal history?

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97406 wrote:

If you believe you may be in a hospital bed in a coma, dreaming, how can you say that you even know your own personal history?

The trick is to think of everything as always changing and capable of changing - including history. You read something here about history, you read something there, you talk to someone about this or that, and it is always changing. And yes, some things are written down as history and then turn out may have never happened. Did the Gulf of Tonkin incident actually occur?

The same with personal history. It changes as one is reminded of things and forgets things, or even creates things that others may never witness. I just take things as is until they change. Everything is capable changing and humans have to live with uncertainty and certainty of change.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;97413 wrote:

The same with personal history. It changes as one is reminded of things and forgets things, or even creates things that others may never witness. I just take things as is until they change. Everything is capable changing and humans have to live with uncertainty and certainty of change.
Rich

Some people try to forget occurrences in their personal history because they are so painful, or because they have regrets about something they did, or did not do, in the past, especially when others may have been involved or entangled, as you often like to say, in your personal history.

This is just another method of shirking responsibility for the actions of one's past, and refusing to acknowledge one's potential role in the future. It is not living as an authentic human being.

@richrf,

"Know Thyself."

The opposite of the above is where the problems occur.

The youth of today follow mantras of Hip-hop lyric ---while war is occurring.

Fasionistas & Media followers hype trends & fads.

Pharmasuedical Companies hype adult drugs.

Newspapers sell stories of other people's stupid actions & re-actions.

The Taliban promise to protect the citisens so as to sell opium.

The irony is that no one notices the irony.

The majority are engrossed in the mundane level of subsistance existence.

The majority are born and destined to repeat the same senario throughout their lives and then to repeat the same creedo, birth after birth, as all living beings do: eat/sleep/mate & defend.

@Bhaktajan,

Bhaktajan;97435 wrote:

"Know Thyself."

The opposite of the above is where the problems occur.

The youth of today follow mantras of Hip-hop lyric ---while war is occurring.

Fasionistas & Media followers hype trends & fads.

Pharmasuedical Companies hype adult drugs.

Newspapers sell stories of other people's stupid actions & re-actions.

The Taliban promise to protect the citisens so as to sell opium.

The irony is that no one notices the irony.

The majority are engrossed in the mundane level of subsistance existence.

The majority are born and destined to repeat the same senario throughout their lives and then to repeat the same creedo, birth after birth, as all living beings do: eat/sleep/mate & defend.

Whose label is on your pants?

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