As ive said the subject is infested with wild claims on one side and ridicule on the other, would you be so harsh to christians or muslims as you are to those who believe in a more tangible mystery..You will have those who find the subject interesting being drawn further and further into this trap of believing almost anything.The trouble is when you accept there might be aliens visiting our planet the search for how or why becomes wilder and wilder. Be just a little more understanding ,certain persons are not the nutters you are trying to make them appear, no more than those who claim their god rose up to earth on a cloud..If you had the same attitude towards them you would be censored.

I think there's a difference:
One that is religious usually doesn't attempt to 'prove' their "God" through scientific facts, theories, or evidence. Those that are understanding will realize they can't 'prove' their "God" to anyone, and attempting to 'prove' it is silly as it primarily involves faith.

You all treat us, believers in Aliens, with disrespect and skepticism, when it is actually highly likely, more likely than a lot of pseudoscience, which is treated with great respect, yet you treat us like we are insane, well, I actually see people who don't believe in Aliens as stupid, arrogant and definatetly insane. When Aliens look upon upon Earth, the first thing they note, is that a lot of the world doesn't even believe they exist...one can only imagine what they think of us.

And for the record, though I don't believe your or Ghost's fantastical stories, I actually do believe it's highly improbable that we are the only intelligent life in the universe. But to claim that I know, to present make-believe stories and regard them as fact, or science, or evidence, is just silly. There's so much extrapolation with these 'theories', they never prove anything.

So if you want to keep arguing this, I have another thread, for this exact same topic, use it!

Ghost -- let me ask you this...

Do you think it's reasonable for me to not care in the slightest whether the government has been covering up alien encounters? Do you think it's reasonable for me not to care whether aliens are watching and visiting us?

Well, yes it's quiet unreasonable. It's slack, arrogant, stupid, and egotistic, and only those who are scared, very antisocial or just really boring people who don't give two f**ks about anything, would ignore something of such great sigificance and something with such enormous implifications. I cannot see many things more important to man kind. It's like the common Government worker or supermarket clerk who choses to not care about an education and the great and fulfilling knowledge and understanding an education can bring. It's like a person who would rather sleep than live. It just shows an enormous lack of passion and motivation. Let me ask, what do you have interest in, what do you put effort into? I find interest in learning anything I can, Quantum Physics and physics in general, Engineering (particularly elecrical and electronic engineering), philosophy (particularly matephysics), psychology, and just the more abstract and complex things that help me understand the universe. I like to understand things instead of remaining oblivious to them.

I never said I don't necessarily believe in aliens. In fact, here's a quote from me:

I'm not rebutting you to play devil's advocate, or because I'm discriminating against your belief. I'm rebutting because you say you have scientific evidence to back your claim and you do not. I treat many things with a healthy dose of skepticism - Hell, my motto is: Consider. I'm not saying you are insane, and I apologize if you perceive me treating you differently than another group that makes wild claims... Don't make this mistake: I would treat any wild claim backed by 'scientific evidence' in this same manner.

Yes, but you don't believe they are visiting Earth do you?

How can you judge someone is stupid simply because they don't share the same sentiments about a particular claim*? That really boggles my mind, but I at least understand why you're so adamant about this now.

If people actually cared about something other than themselves and their current reality, which has been engineered by the greedy, then maybe we would have the truth open to the world by now. This is my goal, to get people interested, to get them thinking, most of the world don't even seriously consider it, they just laugh at the thought, when it is a subject of extreme importance, and certiantly not to be laughed at. Being a part of this universal civilization, is the future of man kind, working with a diverse amount of life forms, and ridding our selves of the war, poverty and crimes that take place constantly, we need to move past this stupidity and extreme arrogance fueled by greed. With no effort, comes no rewards, and we are stuck in this reality, with the Governments and media keeping people dumbed down with mindless, stupid, things that keep us liking and wanting the most stereotypical and materialistic b*lls**t, that it makes me want to barf. When ET's look at us, they must think so low of us, I feel ashamed to be apart of this species we call "intelligent". It just comes down to be lazy, boring, arrogant, greedy, and egotistic beings that act on animalistic implulses. It disgusts me. Wake up people, get in the game, think, put in effort, work towards helping others, and not just your self, expand your mind, just fu**ing move up a level, past all this crap, we are better than this, the world is being destroyed, yet we sit around and watch, we are happy with the here and now, the answer is right in front of our eyes, we just have to want it, and put in the effort, put pressure on those who have the answer but are happy making billions from the polluting energy prducing methods, that are now very obsolete. We must save the world before THEY have to, and they will, they have a lot invested in Earth. They will destroy us if we can't stop the destruction of the Earth, as this shows we are just like a virus, we infect the Earth, over populate, and strip the Earth of life, we destroy anything we come into contact with. We have to move past greed, hatred and violence, we must move up, and become something they feel safe they can release into the universe, work with, respect, and truly be a species they see as "intelligent". Quiet frankly, I don't think the masses are capable of such achievements, we won't save our selves, and it disappoints me.

Well, yes it's quiet unreasonable. It's slack, arrogant, stupid, and egotistic, and only those who are scared, very antisocial or just really boring people who don't give two f**ks about anything, would ignore something of such great sigificance and something with such enormous implifications.

Let me ask, what do you have interest in, what do you put effort into?...I like to understand things instead of remaining oblivious to them.

That's a pretty brazen and crass thing to say. Many people don't care about the human genome project either, but I'd never repeat your tirade of insults and condemnation.
And there is plenty more important to mankind. Like how we get through today and make it to tomorrow -- and that runs the gamut from the economy to health care to international relations and everything else in our society.

I care about a lot of things. I don't care about aliens.

Plenty. Just not people who claim to have witnessed aliens.

I only say this, because most people don't care at all, I have a concern for the human genome project, the economy, the health care system, and international relations, as do most people, but the implications concerning Alien existence, are FAR, FAR, greater, in every aspect, yet it is no more than scoffed at by a lot of people. We could get through the days, a lot happier, and a lot easier, if we were to deal with these entities on a world world scale, with everyone involved.

There we go, you just don't care, yet you care about other things that effect the world to a very lesser extent.

Well, that isn't even the point, it's caring about the actual existence of Aliens and the huge implifications that come with Alien existence, not the people who see them.

Well, yes it's quiet unreasonable. It's slack, arrogant, stupid, and egotistic, and only those who are scared, very antisocial or just really boring people who don't give two f**ks about anything, would ignore something of such great sigificance and something with such enormous implifications.

If people actually cared about something other than themselves and their current reality, which has been engineered by the greedy, then maybe we would have the truth open to the world by now.

This is my goal, to get people interested, to get them thinking, most of the world don't even seriously consider it, they just laugh at the thought, when it is a subject of extreme importance, and certiantly not to be laughed at.

Being a part of this universal civilization, is the future of man kind, working with a diverse amount of life forms, and ridding our selves of the war, poverty and crimes that take place constantly, we need to move past this stupidity and extreme arrogance fueled by greed. With no effort, comes no rewards, and we are stuck in this reality, with the Governments and media keeping people dumbed down with mindless, stupid, things that keep us liking and wanting the most stereotypical and materialistic b*lls**t, that it makes me want to barf. When ET's look at us, they must think so low of us, I feel ashamed to be apart of this species we call "intelligent". It just comes down to be lazy, boring, arrogant, greedy, and egotistic beings that act on animalistic implulses. It disgusts me. Wake up people, get in the game, think, put in effort, work towards helping others, and not just your self, expand your mind, just fu**ing move up a level, past all this crap, we are better than this, the world is being destroyed, yet we sit around and watch, we are happy with the here and now, the answer is right in front of our eyes, we just have to want it, and put in the effort, put pressure on those who have the answer but are happy making billions from the polluting energy prducing methods, that are now very obsolete. We must save the world before THEY have to, and they will, they have a lot invested in Earth. They will destroy us if we can't stop the destruction of the Earth, as this shows we are just like a virus, we infect the Earth, over populate, and strip the Earth of life, we destroy anything we come into contact with. We have to move past greed, hatred and violence, we must move up, and become something they feel safe they can release into the universe, work with, respect, and truly be a species they see as "intelligent". Quiet frankly, I don't think the masses are capable of such achievements, we won't save our selves, and it disappoints me.

You mentioned Government Workers with a lack of education in an earlier post...
I happen to be a government worker with no Degree... I also happen to be a Subject matter expert in all web languages, a tutor of philosophy and a lecture leader for weekly groups, a tutor of partical physics and micro biology. I frequently give lectures on theology at local and nation wide universities including the University of Texas and even Harvard. I teach Ethics at a local community college in my spare time and I am currently in middle of writing 2 books, one of which takes the three major sects of belief (religion, philosophy, and quantum theory) and compares them to each other before stating why none of the three meet their original goals. I am passionate about the arts and enjoy live theatre and I can promise you that I do more in one week of my life then you could hope to do in three of yours. So do NOT go making generalizations about others because there is ALWAYS an exception to the rule and the more you claim to be correct the more you will find yourself to be very VERY wrong. This is not a forum for closed minded zealotry. This is a forum for rational, realistic philosophical debate. Pointing fingers and broad generalizations is not only ignorant but very inappropriate.

Now, as far as your post above... IF aliens (that is to say space men) DO exist and visit earth, this means that they have a great deal more technology than we do. This also means that they have somehow come together as a race to explore the outter reaches of the universe. If this is the case... Why would they care about a small, low tech, warlike like planet called earth for anything more than disection and catelogging of our species? Chances are than we are nothing more than a great big ant farm to them. So tell me, why should I care? Why should I waste precious brain matter with the rediculous calculations it would require to figure out their tech and purpose? If you truly believe then this should be your main goal; your ONLY goal. So tell me, if this is such an important issue, why have you not isolated gravitons in order to create grav-drives yet? Why are you only going half way? Why is your oh so important alien race so reluctant to contact someone like yourself? Just because I choose not to worry about it does not make me ignorant. It makes me reluctant to waste the brain matter it would take to go all the way because THAT is what passion really means. I do not worry about the sun rising tommorrow either... Does that make me an ignorant slacker as well?

To a lesser extent? Who are you to judge the extent of worldy concerns? It is this sort of self important, non-realistic, zealotry which I was talking about earlier. you judge someone as lazy and ignorant when you, yourself, have placed such a high importance on unverifiable "facts". This, sir, makes you a zealot and certainly no different then someone who tells me that God is the biggest concern of mankind.

Now, I looked at this thread because I am someone who thinks that intelligent must exist somewhere out there in the universe but I am starting to feel sorry that I ever read this because you have completely ruined any credibility my thoughts on this subject might have had by removing credibility from your irrational, judgmental posts.

What HUGE implications? They either Do or they Don't. If they do then life goes on as it has... If they don't then life goes on as it has. There is no change. Now, if the economy tanks, the governments become hostile, the nukes get launched... we have something to worry about. Aliens, on the other hand, have shown no interest in exposing themselves or doing anything to change our way of life. They have been seen since the start of recorded history and still, after thousands of years, they have done nothing. There are NO, Zero, Zip, Zilch, Nada, Niet implications of an intelligent species which does not interfere. Period.

Now, it has been brought to my attention that your speech has been less than adequate to meet the rules and regulations of this forum. Zealotry will not be tolerated and if you cannot refrain from using curse words in your posts (and I have seen plenty of example) then you are not going to last long here. For someone so worked up about education, you would think that a vocabulary would come along with it. I guess it is true what they say, the best life lesson happen outside of the classroom.

~Icon

It's actually that people have different interest. When the world is at war and the economy is collapsing and people are thinking in ways displayed in the above quote, who gives a rats whatever about aliens. I'll leave that to the Alien guys who's job it is to discover. My sitting here ranting on about alien life or ranting on that everyone should believe it is both useless and off the subject of this forum. Not to mention the language being used.

Yeah... OK, so let's drop everything and do the job of the alien finders. Forget all the other stuff going on in not only the world but our personal lives and pursue the idea that there are aliens.

Your goal doesn't fit into the goals of this forum. Open up another forum and call it the alien forum and then use it as a tool to pursue your own personal goals. This forum will not be a vehicle for this. This is a philosophy forum.

Alright, the language is against the rules and I've had enough of this ranting about aliens and calling everyone who is not interested in them various names..

Sorry, you're going to have to take it to another forum. DO NOT open another thread on this forum about aliens. DO NOT come in here generalizing people because they don't share the same interests as you. I'm going to sift through some of these threads move them to another location or remove them all together.
Thanks Ghost but NO THANKS.

Sorry Ghost, this is not the alien forum this is a philosophy forum. We don't know enough about human life yet to start in on the philosophy of aliens. Thread closed!

Ghost im upset this subject is taboo but you have a certain responsibility for that, you come from too many certainties about the subject. Some of your claims, if not all of them, come from view that aliens are definitely visiting us so if i cant find adequate evidence the government must be hiding the information.We dont all believe this nor do i think there is any reasonable reason to be believe they have a reason do such a thing.I know your not alone but it appears from even those who are open to persuasion you all have an almost pathological desire rather than a logical approach.Be a bit more critical of your own desires your own logic and you might find a few ears willing to listen..History is littered with ambiguous messages and tales of fairies or other mystical figures, does that mean they where all aliens in disguise .Its perspective not detecting the real truth .

Pusyphus wrote:

But, many, many Americans would insist that the government already fears invasion, or at least it better. Do you actually think the government would gain any street credibility by continuing the lie? [Rhetorical] And, what about greed or power would necessarily be affected by disclosure?

Disclosure, would mean all the secret technology and documentation the Government is hiding, be released to the public. So you have one more possibility, if the Government isn't hiding technology, than they do not deal with these beings in any way, therefor, they might see them as a possible threat, because they don't know what they are capable of, or what they want. In this case, they determine them to be a threat to national security, and they are exempt from the freedom of information act.

Pusyphus wrote:

You are glossing over some fairly critical implied assumptions, and in the process, you are not allowing your own theory to be developed. If you imply important details, they better be given in a "language" that is agreed upon by you and your opponent. Otherwise, you waste time, and it's rarely for good reason.
You imply that the alien form would fully understand recombinant DNA technology. Fine. But then, you also imply that it's a snap of the fingers to make Ape 2.0. This is where your reasoning crumbles a little

I said, it would be a tremendous feat for them, but not impossible, with enough knowledge, and they enjoy accomplishing such tremendous feats, who wouldn't, it's the joy of science. The brain is nothing but an extremely complex computer, programmed and manufactured by Mother Nature, I see no reason why Aliens could not study, and understand just how the ape's brain worked. It is now just a case of understanding genetics, and manipulating, adding, and taking from the DNA of the ape, which essentially contains the brains programming and hardware information. It's like the setup file for an application. It remains, compressed, and in a state that makes it unuseful until it is "installed", uncompressed, and put into use. The setup application is programmed by a programmer, just as our DNA was programmed by survival of the fittest.

Pusyphus wrote:

On earth, you may be hard-pressed to find a single researcher who agrees that it would be a snap of the fingers. Now, with evidence that it is a complex process, what supports your assumption that it would be a snap for anyone else? You can't use the guess that if they had the technology to travel accross great distances at tremendous speeds then they ought to be able to easily make new species; because as far as we know on earth, those are dramatically unrelated technologies. More importantly though, your theory hasn't established that they have the travel technology either.

I just use what technology they have, to get an idea of how intelligent and advanced they actually are. Yes, I think my theory has more than established that they must have technology that allows them to break the speed of light and possibly time, considering how large our universe is, even if they came from the closest star system, which is 4.22 light years away, they just wouldn't bother, unless they were able to travel faster than light.

Pusyphus wrote:

However, it may very well be a snap for the aliens, hypothetically. But, that would lead to the conclusion that they created ALL life here, not just bits and pieces, here and there. It makes more sense that this earth was indeed terra-formed by an external agency, one way or another. That's a realistic objective.

Yes, quiet possibly, but I didn't want to jump to such hasty conclusions, well not yet.

Pusyphus wrote:

In ANY case, most "committees" act toward an objective. There is plenty of support for that statement, wherever you look. So, I don't see anything to support the idea that the aliens would be doing this for fun, in favor over a concrete OBJECTIVE. Sure, the scope of some objective may not be evident yet. But don't just offer that claim of experimental study without explaining what the overall objective might be, at the expense of a more likely scenario. That's poor method. What is the objective that includes determining if they can make smart apes? And, why would they travel halfway accross the galaxy just to do that?

They can go anywhere they like in very little, or no time, they do not see distance as a barrier, so they do not see traveling half way across a universe as any sort of tedious task. I actually did say they have an objective, and they also have a time limit on that objective, 2012. I'm really not sure what they might be looking to achieve, I have the feeling that it is a very complex goal, something we will have a hard time figuring out, and I think we should just leave it alone for now, and leave our selves open to all the options, as you suggest, but when did I suggest they were just doing it for fun?

Pusyphus wrote:

I said we don't care if the robots KNOW we are watching THEM. The point is, if the aliens where conducting an experiment, what could you conclude if the aliens also chose to remain hidden? (Be careful how you answer this one.)

OK, sorry for reading it wrong the first time. I see three possibilities: they do not want to interfere with us in anyway, they were told to remain hidden by the Government in return for non-retaliation, and underground infrastructure (least likely, and I couldn't see them listening to such a primitive species or being incapable of creating their own safe havens), or, most likely, they don't care, and the way their craft work, makes them naturally invisible anyway, but they can lower their energy state into the visible light spectrum, which is why lots of people have seen them.

Pusyphus wrote:

By the way, did you notice I deleted the rest of your paragraph from this section? That's because we should all agree that you never said any of that. It's completely unnecessary, and it induces a new argument that distracts from your workable theory. I have to admit some of it was interesting. You had me at Mother Nature. Remember, save the "magic" card until after the end.

Yes, I didn't really want to stray off topic, and I was hoping you would notice and not continue on my path. I just thought I might throw in a few random thoughts.