The aims of Aliens - Only for believers

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xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 02:34 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
All it could mean is that a certain type of recessive characteristic became more prevalent as a result of certain organisms surviving over others. From the looks of it, lighter skinner people are more likely to have blue eyes. Does it not make sense that lighter skinned people survived better in colder climates, thus, the reason that blue eyes are seen more in those regions. More individuals carried the recessive trait, so more people ended physically displaying the trait through a long series of generations.
Sorry i know all about the recessive genes once they are incorporated into the pool but how does it initiate itself..Colder climates in china never created blue eyes and why dont Eskimos have blue eyes..Nothing can tell us how certain looks or even hair colour became so divergent in northern europe.The colder regions of this world never gave us the same results.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 02:52 pm
@GHOST phil,
Its not that different climates created new alleles, it is that certain individuals survived holding recessive alleles, and thus, they became physically observable in future generations.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:04 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Its not that different climates created new alleles, it is that certain individuals survived holding recessive alleles, and thus, they became physically observable in future generations.
You are repeating yourself using more complex terminology but it does not answer my questions.Who where these recessive individuals and why did they only occur in northern europe , nature has a habit of repeating itself given the oppertunity.The first Blues eye was not enough, you had to have a pool of blue eyes for them to become observable.If you tried experimentally with an equal amount of blue and brown eyes, within several generations the blue eyes would be a rarity if non existent.By logic it would need a large proportion if not the majority of any population for a recessive gene to survive.
 
Pusyphus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:04 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
All it could mean is that a certain type of recessive characteristic became more prevalent as a result of certain organisms surviving over others. From the looks of it, lighter skinner people are more likely to have blue eyes. Does it not make sense that lighter skinned people survived better in colder climates, thus, the reason that blue eyes are seen more in those regions. More individuals carried the recessive trait, so more people ended physically displaying the trait through a long series of generations.


By the proposed mechanism for evolution, recessive traits can only become prevalent when they are selected for. This is a catch-22, since a recessive phenotypic trait could never be selected. It's an impossible scenario, analogous to the requirement that any "evolutionary" step requires not one, but two freaks of nature to find each other by chance, and mate.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:18 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
You are repeating yourself using more complex terminology but it does not answer my questions.Who where these recessive individuals and why did they only occur in northern europe , nature has a habit of repeating itself given the oppertunity.The first Blues eye was not enough, you had to have a pool of blue eyes for them to become observable.If you tried experimentally with an equal amount of blue and brown eyes, within several generations the blue eyes would be a rarity if non existent.By logic it would need a large proportion if not the majority of any population for a recessive gene to survive.


Here is the deal. Eye color is not a big deal. In fact, no trait variances are that big of a deal because all humans belong to the same species. But anyway here is the argument for why thinking of blue eyes as caused by one recessive trait is plain wrong. Blue eyes are taught as a Mendalian trait, which is a discrete trait or a trait of simple inheritance. The problem it is not true that blue eyes are recessive to brown eyes. Eye color is influenced by a number of alleles, not just a single one. Thus, the more individuals that carry the alleles that cause blue eyes that survive, the more the trait appears in the population. Dominant and recessive traits are not an all or none affair.

Pusyphus wrote:
By the proposed mechanism for evolution, recessive traits can only become prevalent when they are selected for. This is a catch-22, since a recessive phenotypic trait could never be selected. It's an impossible scenario, analogous to the requirement that any "evolutionary" step requires not one, but two freaks of nature to find each other by chance, and mate.


Our observations depend if we examine alleles from a phenotypic level or the biochemical level. If you look at them from a biochemical perspective solves you catch-22 scenario.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:32 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Here is the deal. Eye color is not a big deal. In fact, no trait variances are that big of a deal because all humans belong to the same species. But anyway here is the argument for why thinking of blue eyes as caused by one recessive trait is plain wrong. Blue eyes are taught as a Mendalian trait, which is a discrete trait or a trait of simple inheritance. The problem it is not true that blue eyes are recessive to brown eyes. Eye color is influenced by a number of alleles, not just a single one. Thus, the more individuals that carry the alleles that cause blue eyes that survive, the more the trait appears in the population. Dominant and recessive traits are not an all or none affair.
Good try but the laws of inheritance do not work that way however much you use the correct words.You have failed in every aspect to answer my questions and on some you have not even bothered.Dominant and recessive genes in a balanced community have an equal chance of survival but in these communities if we believe human history where not so balanced.Ill ask you again why do we not see similar alternative,alleles, occurring in other milliard opportunities.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:50 pm
@GHOST phil,
Have you considered the effects of vitamin D can have on which individuals survive? That probably explains why blonde hair and blue eyes are more prevalent in Northern Europe, and the Inuits were not forced to adapt genetically and rather may have compensated through vitamin D rich fish diets to live in "sunstarved" regions.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 03:59 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Have you considered the effects of vitamin D can have on which individuals survive? That probably explains why blonde hair and blue eyes are more prevalent in Northern Europe, and the Inuits were not forced to adapt genetically and rather may have compensated through vitamin D rich fish diets to live in "sunstarved" regions.
Sorry but what has the lack of vit. D got to northern europeans having blue eyes? If you dont get enough sun light or vit.D in your diet you die .If you get too much sunlight you can get skin cancer.How does that transform into blue eyes:perplexed:
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 04:08 pm
@GHOST phil,
Light skinned people have less melanin in their skin so they do not need as much sunlight to produce vitamin D. Dark eyes are also caused by melanin. Thus, the reason why light skinned people are more likely to have blue or green eyes. The Inuits were never forced to adapt due to diets high in Vitamin D, and thus, retained dark skin and dark eyes otherwise they would have died of Vitamin D deficiency.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 04:19 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Light skinned people have less melanin in their skin so they do not need as much sunlight to produce vitamin D. Dark eyes are also caused by melanin. Thus, the reason why light skinned people are more likely to have blue or green eyes.
so why dont Chinese have blue eyes they have less skin pigmentation than Europeans.That also does not equate with Eskimos not developing lighter skin and consequently blue eyes or are you also saying Europeans had a diet deficiency also. This desperate theorising is no more scientific that concluding europeans have been infiltrated with alien genes.Certain regions similar to northern europe never showed any signs of developing blue eyes .why is that?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 04:35 pm
@GHOST phil,
Isn't it funny how quickly these threads run the gammit.

I think we went from the possible intentions any possible aliens might have coming to earth, to how they would be affected by Darwin's opinions.

I still find it a little odd that we are talking about aliens from out there in the starngeness of space as though they must be humanlike in thought and intention, and now even genetics.

We always have to be able to put a face to a mystery and want it to be familiar so we can comprehend it. If it turns out to be incomprehensible we declare it an impossibility.

What if these aliens simply flee any sign of danger without ever having to defend theirselves? Maybe their technology is such that they do not need weapons because their flight skills are so highly advanced. Maybe that is why they are so elusive. They are simply able to come and go in the blink of en eye and no race has ever been able to harm them. And because of that they also have never harmed another living creature because of that.

My point is that we are definitely trying to paint any possible ET with a human face and to me that is certainly deceitful. We can make all sorts of assumptions based upon our own familiarity with how we would act and what our own physical selves might bring upon us, but why apply that to something that is NOT human?

This is simply that same old movie line where the alien comes to earth only to be nuked by paranoids before it can even get out of its car to say hello.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 04:46 pm
@GHOST phil,
Here is a discovery out of Copenhagen University that may explain why the Chinese do not typically have blue eyes and light skin.

University of Copenhagen - News

Pathfinder wrote:
Isn't it funny how quickly these threads run the gammit.

I think we went from the possible intentions any possible aliens might have coming to earth, to how they would be affected by Darwin's opinions.

I still find it a little odd that we are talking about aliens from out there in the starngeness of space as though they must be humanlike in thought and intention, and now even genetics.

We always have to be able to put a face to a mystery and want it to be familiar so we can comprehend it. If it turns out to be incomprehensible we declare it an impossibility.

What if these aliens simply flee any sign of danger without ever having to defend theirselves? Maybe their technology is such that they do not need weapons because their flight skills are so highly advanced. Maybe that is why they are so elusive. They are simply able to come and go in the blink of en eye and no race has ever been able to harm them. And because of that they also have never harmed another living creature because of that.

My point is that we are definitely trying to paint any possible ET with a human face and to me that is certainly deceitful. We can make all sorts of assumptions based upon our own familiarity with how we would act and what our own physical selves might bring upon us, but why apply that to something that is NOT human?

This is simply that same old movie line where the alien comes to earth only to be nuked by paranoids before it can even get out of its car to say hello.


Who the hell is discussing the affects of Darwin's opinions? People here are trying to argue that individuals with blue eyes are signs that aliens intervened in human genes. Bald people are just as likely to be signs by that logic. I am talking about biological anthropology which has about as much to do with Darwin as quantum mechanics does with Newton.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 05:04 pm
@Pathfinder,
What you are talking about is exactly what my post addressed Theatus,

that aliens should somehow be considered the same we consider humans. And there is other people in here making comments that bring that to light besides yourself. I don't know who made the darwinian remark. This is not just between you and I my friend.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 07:04 pm
@Pathfinder,
Theaetetus wrote:
Who the hell is discussing the affects of Darwin's opinions?


I was just going to say, what a great topic to start discussing here. The twisted psychological appeal to natural selection in human vs. alien pathology.

Why is it that all the conceptualizations of aliens are that of those forms with a 'potential', those that endure through certain human characteristics such as anxiety, awe, fear, etc. If the alien conceptualization does not fit into the potential to trigger such human emotions then those forms of aliens are latent until scientific, more objective, less impertinent observations take place without that bias.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 15 Feb, 2009 07:20 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday,

Couldn't agree more. Exactly whay I have been trying to say except with a much more scientific sound to it.

Why do we continue to want to put a human face to beings that we aasume are from outer space, its a little silly.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 05:18 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Here is a discovery out of Copenhagen University that may explain why the Chinese do not typically have blue eyes and light skin.

University of Copenhagen - News
A single individual was my problem in the first place. I cant see one individuals characteristics surviving the complexity of human history.If it was a hundred it would be difficult ,one is in my opinion impossible.The problem is a genealogist would not dare make my musing public, thanks for putting up a good debate.

If you believe in evolution and the path it must eventually take in my opinion the outcome will be very similar to ours.I can remember an engineering competition in designing a better human.It became obvious after a short while the human body and its abilities became the winner , we can not improve on it.One extra arm and our head would need to be three times bigger.Try designing something better than the hand for dexterity and multi purpose use. Make the human body bigger and it becomes less agile, make it too small and its power to weight ratio is lost.We are the pinnacle of evolution even if we could be finally tuned.With this in mind, evolution will find the same perfection where ever it is grounded.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 06:56 am
@Pathfinder,
and yet after having pointed out all of this complexity and intimate detail you still just think that it happened by accident?

Lets add to that if the sun was two feet closer we would all be charbroiled in the 90 percent water that we are.

Or that one tiny little cancer cell can end the whole thing.

or one little atom for that matter, an atom for christs sake wiped out two entire cities.

yup, must have been an accident.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 07:05 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
and yet after having pointed out all of this complexity and intimate detail you still just think that it happened by accident?

Lets add to that if the sun was two feet closer we would all be charbroiled in the 90 percent water that we are.

Or that one tiny little cancer cell can end the whole thing.

or one little atom for that matter, an atom for christs sake wiped out two entire cities.

yup, must have been an accident.
im not denying a creator i just cant find him or her.Im agnostic i dont think humans are able of conceiving of this creative force.If you find it, you have to describe it or its an illusion.Its not benevolent as its been described but just like the sea is neither our friend or our enemy.I know what it is not but i dont know what it is.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 09:34 am
@xris,
well i understand and agree until you say that it is an illusion if you cant find it.

It sounds like a contradiction of what you say in your other thoughts, but its probably just me not getting your drift.
 
Pusyphus
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 10:58 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
im not denying a creator i just cant find him or her.Im agnostic i dont think humans are able of conceiving of this creative force.If you find it, you have to describe it or its an illusion.Its not benevolent as its been described but just like the sea is neither our friend or our enemy.I know what it is not but i dont know what it is.


...It could be an illusion, or it could be trying to hide from you.

Pathfinder wrote:
What if these aliens simply flee any sign of danger without ever having to defend theirselves? Maybe their technology is such that they do not need weapons because their flight skills are so highly advanced. Maybe that is why they are so elusive. They are simply able to come and go in the blink of en eye and no race has ever been able to harm them. And because of that they also have never harmed another living creature because of that.

That would be a great explanation if there were not also hundreds of reports of abductions and ruthless encounters.

My point is that we are definitely trying to paint any possible ET with a human face and to me that is certainly deceitful. We can make all sorts of assumptions based upon our own familiarity with how we would act and what our own physical selves might bring upon us, but why apply that to something that is NOT human?

Well, when you suggest that they may have an amazing ability to flee or use stealth from predators or aggressors , aren't you doing the same thing? Aren't you comparing aliens to some sort of gazelle or mosquito?

Just because you are limited to intrepretting what you see through your own experiences, it doesn't mean you are mistaken. Assuming you could not comprehend it or identify it accurately is simply a fallacy.

This is simply that same old movie line where the alien comes to earth only to be nuked by paranoids before it can even get out of its car to say hello.


Well, now you are supposing that some branch of government would have a duty to destroy these beings. What reasoning do you have to support that would-be policy?
 
 

 
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