Muslims - the Day of Islam and another 911

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Aedes
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 06:50 am
@Justin,
Xris, in past threads you have been decidedly remonstrated for the way you've talked about Christians and Christianity.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 07:10 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;90284 wrote:
Xris, in past threads you have been decidedly remonstrated for the way you've talked about Christians and Christianity.
I have had heated debates but I have not been castrated by censorship nor was I accused of blinkered or ill informed opinions. No one asked me if I had read the bible before they debated jesus with me. No one warned me of the sensitive nature of debate with christians.

I dont tell lies nor do I misrepresent the faith of Islam, nor am i insulting but when ever Isam is mentioned the fear curtain rises and I am treated like some leper that will infect the forum.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 07:24 am
@Justin,
Please dont be mad at me, you know I enjoy it when you are here xris:) I just wish you'd calm it down a bit please, I think your very valid points would become clearer if you atttemped to cut down or slow down a bit before posting. Please dont be mad at me, you know I enjoy it when you're here and your posts very much just even more so lately.Smile

Your posts have had a more decidely happier tone lately!Smile
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 07:55 am
@Caroline,
The Daily Star - Opinion Articles - Religion is not the primary motivation of suicide bombers# To understand I dont intend to be closed minded on this subject please read this thread. I dont completely agree with this article but it has many valid points. Im not complaimning about the effect it has on the west but the mentality behind those who act by this reasoning. Muslims suffer far more by suicide bombings than we in the west and it is as much a problem for them as any one else.... Thanks xris
 
Justin
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 08:26 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;90169 wrote:
I see the OP as propaganda. I don't believe any of his testaments as I am of the opinion that Sept 11th was a false flag operation. Islam does allow terrorism, or violence against non-combatants.

You're probably right about the 911 operation.

josh0335;90169 wrote:
Well jihad is compulsory. Fighting is prescribed where fighting is necessary, i.e. when there is oppression or injustice.

When is fighting necessary? Who in Islam makes the decision as to what is just and what is injustice?

josh0335;90169 wrote:
As for suicidal missions, this is debateable. There is no evidence in the Qur'an to show that suicide missions are prescribed, but there are accounts of early Muslims going to fight with no intention of returning. And the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) allowed this. Scholars use this as evidence to suggest that martyrdom operations are indeed allowed, because if they were not, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would not have allowed the early Muslims to go into battle with this intention.

Yeah, I don't understand any of this. Any religion that teaches it's necessary to go to battle, IMHO is a bad religion and is cancerous to the entire world. Fighting is not a way to peace nor is it productive in society. Killing each other has never been a good example of ANYTHING!

josh0335;90169 wrote:
What is clear, however, is that suicide missions cannot be aimed at civilians. It may be acceptable for a soldier to strap a bomb to himself and detonate himself under an enemy tank, but certainly not acceptable to do the same in a nightclub.

You can go on a suicide mission but only against enemies. That sounds like a wonderful program to be a part of.

Where's the line drawn? Because these people that blow themselves up in night clubs view those in it as the enemy. Why does there have to be an enemy? I think maybe this is where the confusion is. It seems there's a fine line in which militants cross and that fine line seems to allow this crossing.

What I'd like to know is who or what is considered the enemy? Maybe it would help if we could identify the enemy. I know what the Qu'ran says but I'd like to hear who the enemy is from Muslims.

To raise a child in this world and teach them that there is an enemy among us sounds like bunk to me, not a peace seeking religion.

josh0335;90169 wrote:
It is interesting that you require Muslims to be more vocal in condemning terrorism. Is this guilt through association? I feel no need as a Muslim to condemn terrorism any more than my fellow non-Muslim human being, because it seems rather obvious. You do not see Muslims as victims in this, despite the majority of victims of global terrorism being Muslims themselves. Why should the victims be more vocal in condemnation of a phenomenon which is killing them the most? Seems quite strange.

Nobody is requiring anything. Wrong is wrong and if Islam is for peace then where does allowing terrorism or condoning terrorism have a place?

Why is it strange? If any other religion were crossing a line such as this, there would be many who would stand up against it and there have been. If a bunch of Christians decided to misinterpret something in their bible and become militant in their mission, then there would be many others who would rise up and condemn the terrorism.

All this crap is in the past as well. The prophet you speak of and and bible and all these books are HISTORY. Written for another time, written in a barbaric age, written for a lower level consciousness, these are old expired garbage that we seem to cling on to for reasons I cannot seem to understand.

Sorry, it just doesn't resonate with me. However, in all fairness I think it's important to understand who is the enemy so Muslims don't have to tackle this alone and work together in peace with other religions to nip this enemy thing in the butt before it keeps getting out of hand.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:39 am
@Justin,
Quote:
When is fighting necessary? Who in Islam makes the decision as to what is just and what is injustice?

You probably won't like this answer but what the heck; fighting is necessary when there are violations against the Islamic concepts of justice. Oil, or war economy would not be legitimate reasons to invade another country, for example. Who decides? Well in a functioning Islamic State it would be the Administration guided by the unanimous verdict of learned people.
Quote:
Yeah, I don't understand any of this. Any religion that teaches it's necessary to go to battle, IMHO is a bad religion and is cancerous to the entire world. Fighting is not a way to peace nor is it productive in society. Killing each other has never been a good example of ANYTHING!

Perhaps, but fighting is a reality whether you like it or not. Understand that humans have very unique qualities, which can ultimately lead to conflict. Tolerance and compromise are put against determination and defiance. You cannot be in admiration of the determination of humans to, for example, continue the search for a cure to cancer but then complain when that same level of determination is channelled to spreading democracy in oppressive countries. The fact is defiance is a human quality, and where there are two opposing opinions a conflict is inevitable. With this in mind, it is rather idealistic to say you believe any philosophy which includes a military aspect is bad.
Quote:
You can go on a suicide mission but only against enemies. That sounds like a wonderful program to be a part of.


It's wonderful to me. What better way to leave this world than in protection of those you love and care for?

Quote:
Where's the line drawn? Because these people that blow themselves up in night clubs view those in it as the enemy. Why does there have to be an enemy? I think maybe this is where the confusion is. It seems there's a fine line in which militants cross and that fine line seems to allow this crossing.

Well, I think I can tell the difference between a combatant and a non-combatant. That is the line. The people who distort these lines are not a new phenomenon, as extremists have been around a very long time. The IRA who used to bomb London or the KKK who would lynch black people in the name of Christianity, they are all the same. It's nothing new.

Quote:
What I'd like to know is who or what is considered the enemy? Maybe it would help if we could identify the enemy. I know what the Qu'ran says but I'd like to hear who the enemy is from Muslims.

The enemy for the Muslims are those foreign armies occupying and destroying them. This would be pretty much the whole Western world, I guess.

Quote:
To raise a child in this world and teach them that there is an enemy among us sounds like bunk to me, not a peace seeking religion.

Islam is not a 'peace seeking religion', which is the most perpetuated slogan in recent times. Islam is a religion of justice, not a religion of passivity. Where there is injustice, Muslims are required to change it through words and actions. If this requires fighting then so be it. Once justice is established, the natural result is peace. But please understand the distinction; it is justice, not the wish for peace which is the foundation for Muslim actions. When there is justice between a man and his Lord, between him and his family, between him and his neighbours, there is peace.
Quote:
Why is it strange? If any other religion were crossing a line such as this, there would be many who would stand up against it and there have been. If a bunch of Christians decided to misinterpret something in their bible and become militant in their mission, then there would be many others who would rise up and condemn the terrorism.


I would not require the Christians in the street to especially come out and condemn Christian oppression and aggression. I certainly would not require Christians to be more vocal in condemnation of terrorists if the Christians themselves were the ones being killed. Why would I need them to be more vocal when I see their innocents being slaughtered? Isn't it obvious they are against such acts?

Quote:
All this crap is in the past as well. The prophet you speak of and and bible and all these books are HISTORY. Written for another time, written in a barbaric age, written for a lower level consciousness, these are old expired garbage that we seem to cling on to for reasons I cannot seem to understand.


Barbaric age? Considering we live in a time where we have more slavery in the world than ever before, where 80% of the worlds wealth resides with only 1% of the population, where more people are killed in wars with weapons of massively mass destruction than in the time of the Qur'an, where there is more artificially created poverty than ever, I can't really see how the world was more barbaric one thousand years ago than it is now. I find it to be such an ignorant attitude to consider humans of previous generations as being of a 'lower consciousness'. The knowledge we have today is built upon knowledge attained by those before us.

The Qur'an is a timeless text. It was not meant for any particular people of a particular time. Just because your great higher consciousness cannot see this does not make it 'old expired garbage.'

Quote:
Sorry, it just doesn't resonate with me. However, in all fairness I think it's important to understand who is the enemy so Muslims don't have to tackle this alone and work together in peace with other religions to nip this enemy thing in the butt before it keeps getting out of hand.


If you believe the 9/11 attacks were a false flag operation, then you may come to believe, as I do, that the terrorist threat is perpetuated by the 'men behind the throne' to continue an agenda. People are easily controlled when they are scared, and do not question normally questionable decisions. I'm not saying extremists don't exist, I'm suggesting many attacks you see are desirable for certain people in the West who benefit from the fear created by brown bearded young men blowing themselves up, and as such allow and encourage the carnage we see to continue. Identifying the enemy is much harder when you see the world like this.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:42 am
@Justin,
Yes oil does seem to be a problem?
 
Justin
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 10:20 am
@Justin,
OK, so what determines justice? Who is it that makes that call to judge what they perceive to be injustice? What does the old text define as injustice?

I don't buy it. Don't believe in it and it seems from your description it's a religion of judgment not justice. As far as injustice, that's the entire reason for standing up against terrorism. Isn't militant terrorism injustice?

Justice can be perceived in many ways by many people. What one sees as justice, the other sees and injustice. An eye for an eye is not what I would consider justice.

So, all that being said... I disagree. Does this make me a target of the holy Muslims? Because I disagree and will not worship your deity, am I now the enemy? Would it then be a worthy cause to come into my home and blow yourself up to die for what you believe to be protecting your loved ones?

C'mon, if this isn't a barbaric mindset I'm not sure what is.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 10:33 am
@Justin,
Justin;90336 wrote:
if this isn't a barbaric mindset I'm not sure what is.
It is indeed a barbaric mindset to target random people in the World Trade Center because of perceived infractions of the US government and military.

It is the exact same mindset to blame random Muslims for the infractions of militant extremists.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 11:24 am
@Justin,
Justin;90336 wrote:
OK, so what determines justice? Who is it that makes that call to judge what they perceive to be injustice? What does the old text define as injustice?


Justice is determined by the Islamic teachings. I'm not going to waste energy giving you some examples as it is clear you won't accept it.

Justin;90336 wrote:
I don't buy it. Don't believe in it and it seems from your description it's a religion of judgment not justice. As far as injustice, that's the entire reason for standing up against terrorism. Isn't militant terrorism injustice?


Judgement is necessary for justice, if you choose to think about it. And I agree, justice is to stand up against terrorism. What's your point? You still seem to be of the opinion that Islam allows terrorism, or allows for militants to attack civilians.

Justin;90336 wrote:
Justice can be perceived in many ways by many people. What one sees as justice, the other sees and injustice. An eye for an eye is not what I would consider justice.


Turning the other cheek is not justice either. You are right that justice is subjective, and so the remedies for injustice will vary as a result. If you want universal justice, you need a universal standard. That standard is the Qur'an, for those who wish to accept it as Divine. It is worth considering the concepts of positive vs negative liberties of Isiah Berlin to understand the difficulties of having a universal concept of justice. It is my belief that no man-made efforts can ever provide it, but Islam can.

Justin;90336 wrote:
So, all that being said... I disagree. Does this make me a target of the holy Muslims? Because I disagree and will not worship your deity, am I now the enemy? Would it then be a worthy cause to come into my home and blow yourself up to die for what you believe to be protecting your loved ones?

C'mon, if this isn't a barbaric mindset I'm not sure what is.


What? Have you read anything I've said? The answer to your question is no. Your differing opinion does not make you a target for military action. You are a civilian and so have protection under Islamic laws of engagement. However, if you decide to join your army and aggress against the Muslims then yes, you (but only you, not your family and property) are considered an enemy and are a legitimate target. This is hardly controversial.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 12:40 pm
@josh0335,
Are you happy with everything the Koran commands of you and dictates your views ?

Would you support a non believer in a debate against a believer?

Would you openly befriend a non believer against scriptures advice?

I have heard the believers words and the reasons for their actions, they never condemn a brother. I had an open mind before entering a certain forum , they taught me the extreme scriptures certain muslims will turn to , to enforce their twisted views. My point is that there is justification in the scriptures that men of evil can help convert moderate disadvantaged men into blind, hate filled suicide bombers.

I have said before muslims suffer more than we from this sacred anger, why do shias and sunni continue to kill each other by suicide bombings ? It has nothing to do with the west, why the majority of victims are muslims, why is their hatred is so strong.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 12:44 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;90351 wrote:

to your question is no. Your differing opinion does not make you a target for military action. You are a civilian and so have protection under Islamic laws of engagement. However, if you decide to join your army and aggress against the Muslims then yes, you (but only you, not your family and property) are considered an enemy and are a legitimate target. This is hardly controversial.

But these are innocent women and children. Sorry I misread the quote.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 12:45 pm
@Justin,
Justin,

I think its far simpler than you are thinking it is.

Jihad is only defensive, so if you are being attacked, then you can fight back.

Xris, please, just be clearer. I cant understand what you are saying 50% of the time.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 12:58 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;90368 wrote:
Justin,

I think its far simpler than you are thinking it is.

Jihad is only defensive, so if you are being attacked, then you can fight back.

Xris, please, just be clearer. I cant understand what you are saying 50% of the time.
Then try harder im sure you will succeed?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 01:04 pm
@ahmedjbh,
Quote:
Are you happy with everything the Koran commands of you and dictates your views ?


Yes and no. Sometimes I do not understand a command or do not like it e.g. waking up before dawn to pray. But I then reflect on the verse:

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

Al-Baqara, Chapter 2, Verse 216

Quote:
Would you support a non believer in a debate against a believer?


Yes, if the non believer was speaking the truth.

Quote:
Would you openly befriend a non believer against scriptures advice?


No. But my scriptures don't deny me this anyway.

Quote:
I have heard the believers words and the reasons for their actions, they never condemn a brother. I had an open mind before entering a certain forum , they taught me the extreme scriptures certain muslims will turn to , to enforce their twisted views. My point is that there is justification in the scriptures that men of evil can help convert moderate disadvantaged men into blind, hate filled suicide bombers.


I'm sorry you no longer have an open mind about Islam. As I mentioned before, extremists are not something new. Anyone can be extreme if they try hard enough. You seem to be suggesting that Islamic scriptures make it easy for people to become extremists. But I would point out that the majority of Muslims are not.

Quote:
I have said before muslims suffer more than we from this sacred anger, why do shias and sunni continue to kill each other by suicide bombings ? It has nothing to do with the west, why the majority of victims are muslims, why is their hatred is so strong.


Depends on your world view, but I believe it has everything to do with the West. I mentioned earlier that there are powerful influences in the West who benefit immensely from an ongoing war as it furthers a more subtle agenda. So it is encouraged. That's the conclusion I've reached from my research. Of course, you don't have to agree with it.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 01:57 pm
@josh0335,
I wish i had met more like you on that forum as it would been of more benefit. I wont say your wrong, but its not the scriptures i was referred to that gave me these impressions.

I would like to know how you have come to the conclusion that the west has caused the conflict between muslims?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 02:54 pm
@xris,
xris;90388 wrote:
I wish i had met more like you on that forum as it would been of more benefit. I wont say your wrong, but its not the scriptures i was referred to that gave me these impressions.

I would like to know how you have come to the conclusion that the west has caused the conflict between muslims?


Well, shia and sunnis have existed for over 1400 years throughout the Muslim world in peace. So there is proof that these conflicts did not always exist. The problems really began after the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the hands of the British and other European nations. The divisions of the ME to divide and create unnatural borders created have a lot to do with feelings of injustice. All the puppet governments of the Muslim world who oppress their people such as the Saud dynasty (aided by the British), the late Saddam Hussein (aided by USA), the former Shah of Iran (aided by USA), the Mujahideen (aided by USA, later ousted by the Taliban), Mubarak of Egypt (ally of USA) etc. leave the masses helpless. These oil rich nations have some of the worst literacy rates in the world and so the people can never break free from oppression through intellectual means. This leads to violence.

More specifically, the war economy encourages violence in the Muslim world. The reason sectarian violence never seems to stop in Iraq between Shia and Sunnis is because it is encouraged to justify a continued military presence in Iraq. And the longer the military stays there, the more the Western governments must spend on Defence contractors, thus making a few people very, very rich. Violence in Muslim countries also generates more fear of Islamic terrorism, thus allowing greater control for Western governments. If all was rosy in Muslim countries there would be no fear and thus people would refuse to have their liberties snatched away.

There's so much more I could point to to show why I think all the conflict is created or encouraged by criminal elements in the Western social elite. Many people simply reject this as desperate ramblings of a conspiracy theorist, but I refuse to believe that Muslims half-way across the globe think drastically differently than me or you. They want a home, a job, a decent health service, the chance to send their children to school, and live a peaceful life, just like other normal people. This violence is being aggravated by outside influences.

 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 03:10 pm
@josh0335,
Exactly the attitude that refuses to accept that the two tribes of Islam can not live together in a balance of equality. The west has only served to either keep them apart or force unnatural union.

You know full well many classify the other as unbelievers and under Sadam many shia rituals where banned. The influence of the west or your view that it is the wests interest to maintain these suicide bombings is bizarre. The Americans are just as big a target by Sunni insurgents as shia muslims, why should that be in our interest? get real please, admit it muslims are killing each other for hatred and power.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 03:32 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;90402 wrote:

More specifically, the war economy encourages violence in the Muslim world. The reason sectarian violence never seems to stop in Iraq between Shia and Sunnis is because it is encouraged to justify a continued military presence in Iraq. And the longer the military stays there, the more the Western governments must spend on Defence contractors, thus making a few people very, very rich. Violence in Muslim countries also generates more fear of Islamic terrorism, thus allowing greater control for Western governments.


Bin Laden mentioned in his 2004 tape, "this is a war [in Afghanistan] that is benefiting major companies with billions of dollars", in reference to Halliburton...which goes back to the issue being one of politics as well as religion. Look at how many billions of dollars companies like Halliburton and other war and resource exploiting companies have been making in recent years...and they are all politically connected at the highest levels in the US.

I'm not sure I agree with the Islamic idea of 'justice' as it is sometimes presented, but we don't even need any teachings of Islam to be convinced of injustice taking place in the middle east. If I lived in Iraq, I would probably hate the west too. When I hear reports of halliburton or military trucks being blown away by IEDs, I wonder, "well, what do you expect when you invade someone's country?" These people have been bombed, assassinated, thrown into prison camps, had thier homes destroyed, intimidated, humiliated, shamed. Really, what the hell else do we expect as a result of this?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 03:54 pm
@xris,
Quote:
Exactly the attitude that refuses to accept that the two tribes of Islam can not live together in a balance of equality. The west has only served to either keep them apart or force unnatural union.


Try and have a memory longer than 30 years. What have Sunnis and Shias been doing for the past 1400 years? Do you think they've been killing each other that long simply waiting for America to be founded and then come to their rescue to save them from each other?

Quote:
You know full well many classify the other as unbelievers and under Sadam many shia rituals where banned.


Who helped put Saddam there? Who aided him in invading Iran? Who created the unnatural borders of Iraq leaving Kurds with no autonomy and a Shia majority under Sunni leadership? Was it the Muslims? Or maybe it was the Chinese? How were Shias treated when they lived under the Ottomans, or the Abbasids, or the Umayyads before Europe divided up the Muslim world? Your ignorance is typical of someone who simply believes everything they see on TV. These are barbaric backwards people who can't stop killing each other so the heroic and noble men of the West must go there and sort it out. Wow.

Quote:
The influence of the west or your view that it is the wests interest to maintain these suicide bombings is bizarre. The Americans are just as big a target by Sunni insurgents as shia muslims, why should that be in our interest?


I just told you why. War economy, economic imperialism and also Carl Schmidt's theory of having an external evil to better manage a country. This is plain for you to see if you wish to analyse recent events. Were you convinced that Iraq had WMDs? If you were, did you ever ask yourself how the most spied on country in the world managed to sneak WMDs in from North Africa without anyone realising before it was too late, requiring an invasion? Because that's what the official line was. What I find bizarre is people's readiness to simply swallow the official line of their governments.

Quote:
get real please, admit it muslims are killing each other for hatred and power.


I would actually invite you to get real. Of all the conflicts in the world, Tibet, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Sri Lanka, why do Western governments have such a particular interest in Muslim countries? The terrorism threat is not only exaggerated but encouraged to have the basis to exert Western influence in the region. I've already listed some of the reasons above. Muslims are indeed killing each other but as stated repeatedly, it is being aggravated by Western interests.

I don't expect anyone to believe anything I say. You are more than welcome to accept everything the Fox network and government officials tell you.

---------- Post added 09-15-2009 at 10:59 PM ----------

Quote:
Bin Laden mentioned in his 2004 tape, "this is a war [in Afghanistan] that is benefiting major companies with billions of dollars", in reference to Halliburton...which goes back to the issue being one of politics as well as religion. Look at how many billions of dollars companies like Halliburton and other war and resource exploiting companies have been making in recent years...and they are all politically connected at the highest levels in the US.


Exactly. And that's just a small part of it. These invaded nations will in the coming years take massive loans from the IMF which cannot be paid back. As a condition set by the IMF, civil institutions will be privitised which will lead to Multinational or American companies to be contracted to run things like utilities, penal systems, educations systems etc. Resources will have to be sold to these companies for cheap, and much of the national GDP will go to debt repayment. I haven't made any of this up. Just do some research and see how American economic imperialism works.
 
 

 
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