Muslims - the Day of Islam and another 911

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Justin
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 07:11 am
On facebook, a friend posted an article he had found which I found rather interesting. Now the religious side of this article is that Islam is a religion and... well you read it and tell me what you think.

Quote:
Is another 9/11 set to unfold?


By Lee Benson
Deseret News

Published: Saturday, Sept. 5, 2009 9:32 p.m. MDT

Earlier this year, quite by happenstance, I read a book written by Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter James B. Stewart.

"Heart of a Soldier" tells the story of two men who, well before it happened, foretold not only of the terrorist attack of 9/11 but also the 1993 bombing in the World Trade Center parking garage that preceded it.

One of the men, Rick Rescorla, was chief of security for Morgan Stanley with an office in the World Trade Center. He died on 9/11, but not before he shepherded all but six of Morgan Stanley's 2,700 employees to safety because of a well-prepared and well-executed evacuation plan. He'd have made it out, too, had he not gone back in the building looking for those six.

The other man, Daniel J. Hill, is still alive.

With another Sept. 11 approaching I wanted to talk to The Man Who Predicted 9/11.

Although the primary focus in Stewart's book is on Rescorla - a bona fide hero for his actions on 9/11 - I found Hill to be an even more fascinating character.

It was Hill who converted to Islam as a young U.S. Army paratrooper stationed in Beirut in 1958. It was Hill who learned fluent Arabic. It was Hill who joined the Mujahedeen Freedom Fighters in Afghanistan and fought the Soviet invasion there in the 1980s. It was Hill who personally met Osama bin Laden. It was Hill who used information from Islamic extremists to warn Rescorla that terrorists would use the underground parking garage for a car bomb attack on the World Trade Center. It was Hill who asked the U.S. government to assist him in an assassination attempt on bin Laden in 1998 (the request was rejected). And it was Hill who warned the FBI just weeks before Sept. 11, 2001, that his Mideast contacts told him "something big" was about to happen in the United States, in New York, Washington, D.C., or Philadelphia - maybe all three.

Through the Internet I managed to contact Hill at his home in Florida. He's 71 now. I asked him if his reputation as a terrorism prognosticator without parallel has changed his life much.

"Oh, that blew over pretty fast," he said. "Most of the people even in my hometown don't know any of that stuff."

He didn't want to talk about the past. He wanted to talk about the future.
The very near future.

The man who predicted 9/11 is worried that its sequel is imminent.
"Muslims that I talk to say things like, 'America thinks they're safe now. They've forgotten about 9/11. But watch, Daniel. Stay near your TV. It's going to be bigger than 9/11,' " he said.

Hill said the next terrorist attack will involve suitcase nuclear bombs that will be detonated in small, low-flying two-seater private airplanes manned by men hanging onto the belief that, like the 9/11 hijackers, they are about to die as martyrs and enter paradise.

He is not alone in suggesting such a scenario. A 2007 book, "The Day of Islam," spells out the details, as do any number of Internet sites about a plot called "American Hiroshima."

The nukes, he said, will be detonated over New York, Washington, D.C., Chicago, Miami, Houston, Las Vegas and Los Angeles.
I asked Hill, "Why now?"

"Eight years from 1993 to 2001, eight years from that 9/11 to this 9/11," he said. "Symbolism. They're big on symbolism."

"Ramadan started two weeks ago Saturday," he said, referring to the Muslim holy month of fasting. "It always hits around Ramadan."

Eight years ago, Hill predicted the attack would come on Oct. 16 - almost in the middle of that year's Ramadan (the timing of Ramadan varies from year to year). He was about a month off.

"I don't know the second, hour or day. I just know they have the means, will, motivation and desire to do it," he said, noting that it's believed that years ago the suitcase nukes, acquired from former USSR operatives, were smuggled into America across the Mexican border.

Hill said he has warned the FBI, the CIA and others in government. For the past two years, he's sent out proposals for a book on the subject. All he's gotten back are rejections.

"To most people, I am a deviant personality," he said.

But there's no arguing his credentials.

"I'm a Muslim," he says. "I'm a special ops expert, I'm a terrorist and I've lived among Muslims. I fought the Russians with the same guys we're now fighting in Afghanistan. I met Osama. I volunteered to assassinate him. I know (the enemy) so well because I've worked, slept and prayed alongside them for years. I've become one of them. I know their nature, I know their culture, I know how they think. I can quote the Koran like a Southern Baptist minister can quote the New Testament. I know these are people who do not tire, who do not quit. There are odds this won't happen, but they aren't big odds."

"I hope you're wrong," I told him.

"Yeah. I hope so, too," he said.

Lee Benson's article.
What do you all think of this? I hadn't actually gone and verified all the information involved but my question is, is part of this religion to destroy the west or anyone who doesn't believe like they believe.

I would hope to invite some Muslims to verify this information as being true or false. And if it's true, what then can we do to prevent this type of stuff.

Also, I often wondered if it was Muslims at all that did this because it's almost something Hitler would have done to build fear based on the desire to control the population.

Let's talk more about the religious view of all this rather than the 911 argument.
 
chad3006
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 07:43 am
@Justin,
It sounds like propaganda to me--a Comrade Ogilvy kind of thing.
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 07:45 am
@Justin,
Yeah, almost does to me too. Hmm... I did find this though. Daniel J. Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Aedes
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 08:07 am
@Justin,
we're losing the "some" versus "all" distinction here

1.5 billion -- who is prepared to generalize about 1.5 billion people's motives?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 08:56 am
@Justin,
Why woudn't the FBI taking an interest? (If that's true).
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 09:08 am
@Justin,
It's not about motives and it's not about the "some" versus "all". The question is, is this what is being taught in the world of Islam. I don't know because I'm not a muslim, therefore I ask based on an article that landed on my facebook page.

Maybe this thread will attract a Muslim's response and open the doors for a productive discussion.
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 09:48 am
@Justin,
Ok, I did some digging. Although I've read the Koran many years ago and was nearly sickened reading it as an infidel, it's one of those things that I haven't picked up in a while so I did a search and found some verses in Koran or Qu'ran, however you want to spell it.

Again, I'm not speaking for anyone, nor am I making judgments about this religion. However the Koran is their book like the bible is the book in other religions. So here we go, verses from the Holy Qu'ran:
Quote:
"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6). "God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).

A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).
They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).
"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).

"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).

"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).
"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).

"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).
"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).

"They shall sigh with remorse, but shall never come out of the Fire" (2:168).

"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing" (2:172).

"Theirs shall be a woeful punishment" (2:175).

"How steadfastly they seek the Fire! That is because God has revealed the Book with truth; those that disagree about it are in extreme schism" (2:176).

"Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. . . . f they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful. Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. But if they desist, fight none except the evil-doers"(2:190-93).

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).

"They will not cease to fight against you until they force you to renounce your faith-if they are able. But whoever of you recants and dies an unbeliever, his works shall come to nothing in this world and in the world to come. Such men shall be the tenants of Hell, wherein they shall abide forever. Those that have embraced the Faith, and those that have fled their land and fought for the cause of God, may hope for God's mercy" (2:217-18).

"God does not guide the evil-doers" (2:258).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (2:264).

"The evil-doers shall have none to help them" (2:270).

"God gives guidance to whom He will" (2:272).

"Those that deny God's revelations shall be sternly punished; God is mighty and capable of revenge" (3:5).

"As for the unbelievers, neither their riches nor their children will in the least save them from God's judgment. They shall become fuel for the Fire" (3:10).

"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into Hell-an evil resting place!'" (3:12).

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. . . . He that denies God's revelations should know that swift is God's reckoning" (3:19).

"Let the believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful-he that does this has nothing to hope for from God-except in self-defense" (3:28).

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" (3:118).

"If you have suffered a defeat, so did the enemy.We alternate these vicissitudes among mankind so that God may know the true believers and choose martyrs from among you (God does not love the evil-doers); and that God may test the faithful and annihilate the infidels" (3:140).

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51).

"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: 'Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).

"Never think that those who were slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those they left behind, who have not yet joined them, have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in God's grace and bounty. God will not deny the faithful their reward" (3:169).

"Let not the unbelievers think that We prolong their days for their own good. We give them respite only so that they may commit more grievous sins. Shameful punishment awaits them" (3:178).

"Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain: I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as a reward from God; God holds the richest recompense. Do not be deceived by the fortunes of the unbelievers in the land. Their prosperity is brief. Hell shall be their home, a dismal resting place" (3:195-96).

"God has cursed them in their unbelief" (4:46).
"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: 'These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50-51).

"Those that deny Our revelation We will burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may truly taste the scourge. God is mighty and wise" (4:55-56).

"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels and those who were given the Book before you, who have made of your religion a jest and a pastime" (5:57).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. We have stirred among them enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection" (5:65).

"God does not guide the unbelievers" (5:67).

"That which is revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many among them. But do not grieve for the unbelievers" (5:69).

"You see many among them making friends with unbelievers. Evil is that to which their souls prompt them. They have incurred the wrath of God and shall endure eternal torment. . . .You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans, and that the nearest in affection to them are those who say: 'We are Christians'" (5:80-82).

"[T]hose that disbelieve and deny Our revelations shall become the inmates of Hell" (5:86).

"[T]hey deny the truth when it is declared to them: but they shall learn the consequences of their scorn" (6:5).

"We had made them more powerful in the land than yourselves [the Meccans], sent down for them abundant water from the sky and gave them rivers that rolled at their feet. Yet because they sinned We destroyed them all and raised up other generations after them. If We sent down to you a Book inscribed on real parchment and they touched it with their own hands, the unbelievers would still assert: 'This is but plain sorcery.' They ask: 'Why has no angel been sent down to him [Muhammad]?' If We had sent down an angel, their fate would have been sealed and they would have never been reprieved" (6:5-8).

"Who is more wicked than the man who invents falsehoods about God or denies His revelations?" (6:21).

"Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our signs, even if they see them one and all. When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: 'This is nothing but old fictitious tales.' They forbid it and depart from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it. If you could see them when they are set before the Fire! They will say: 'Would that we could return! Then we would not deny the revelations of our Lord and would be true believers' 6:23-27).

"But if they were sent back, they would return to that which they have been forbidden. They are liars all" (6:29).

"Had God pleased He would have given them guidance, one and all" (6:35).

"Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in darkness. God confounds whom He will, and guides to a straight path whom He pleases." (6:39)

"[T]heir hearts were hardened, and Satan made their deeds seem fair to them. And when they had clean forgotten Our admonition We granted them all that they desired; but just as they were rejoicing in what they were given, We suddenly smote them and they were plunged into utter despair. Thus were the evil-doers annihilated. Praise be to God, Lord of the Universe!" (6:43-45).

"[T]hose that deny Our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds" (6:49).

"Such are those that are damned by their own sins. They shall drink scalding water and be sternly punished for their unbelief" (6:70).

"Could you but see the wrongdoers when death overwhelms them! With hands outstretched, the angels will say: 'Yield up your souls. You shall be rewarded with the scourge of shame this day, for you have said of God what is untrue and scorned His revelations" (6:93).

"Avoid the pagans. Had God pleased, they would not have worshipped idols. . . . We will turn away their hearts and eyes from the Truth since they refused to believe in it at first. We will let them blunder about in their wrongdoing. If We sent the angels down to them, and caused the dead to speak to them, . . . and ranged all things in front of them, they would still not believe, unless God willed otherwise. . . . Thus have We assigned for every prophet an enemy: the devils among men and jinn, who inspire each other with vain and varnished falsehoods. But had your Lord pleased, they would not have done so. Therefore leave them to their own inventions, so that the hearts of those who have no faith in the life to come may be inclined to what they say and, being pleased, persist in their sinful ways" (6:107-12).

"The devils will teach their votaries to argue with you. If you obey them you shall yourselves become idolaters. . . . God will humiliate the transgressors and mete out to them a grievous punishment for their scheming" (6:121-25).

"If God wills to guide a man, He opens his bosom to Islam. But if he pleases to confound him, He makes his bosom small and narrow as though he were climbing up to heaven. Thus shall God lay the scourge on the unbelievers" (6:125).
I found the above quotes from the Koran along with some commentary on this page.

I searched some more and found an interesting response.

Question:

Quote:
Does the koran teach to kill, tax or convert infidels as a general principle? Also does the Koran teach that in the last day trees will cry out there is a Jew behind me come and kill him?
Answer:

Quote:
In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

Dear Brother,

The short answer is no.

The Qur'an does not teach that "infidels" should be killed, taxed, or converted as a matter of principle.

The answer to your next question is also no. Actually, this is a saying, or hadith, attributed to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. Scholars differ over the interpretation of this saying. However, the best method of understanding this hadith is to look at the biography of the Prophet, peace be upon him. When he established the first Islamic state in Medina, he regarded the Jews as allies, and concluded a treaty with them. Only when they violated the treaty and sided with the Muslims' enemies did the Prophet change his policy toward them. It is possible that this hadith is a reflection of the tensions between Muslims and Jews in Medina. However, bear in mind that Islam accords special status to both Christians and Jews, as we will see later.

First, let's look at where these statements come from. These are common stereotypes about Islam. People who don't understand the religion like to toss around the accusation that the Qur'an teaches violence and anti-semitism. Unfortunately, a lot of people who buy into these misconceptions have distinctly Islamophobic agendas that preclude them from having any positive views of Islam.

Islam is a fourteen-hundred years old way of life. One simply can't take the scripture of Islam, which is the Qur'an (also spelled Koran), and make sweeping generalizations about the religion, particularly when one lacks the qualifications to interpret the Qur'an.

The Qur'an makes reference to different groups of non-Muslims. First, the Qur'an recognizes the natural diversity of humanity, "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Qu'ran, 49:13)

There is also the recognition that human beings are religiously and ethnically diverse, "For, had God so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community; however, He lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides aright him that wills [to be guided]; and you will surely be called to account for all that you ever did!" (Qur'an, 16:93)
What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."

The Qur'an speaks of "kuffar," or those who disbelieve, or cover up the truth, or deny the truth of God and His messengers. However, it is incorrect to translate "kafir" as infidel. The Qur'an also does not label all non-Muslims as kuffar, or unbelievers.

The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

The Qur'an is the culmination of the Abrahamic tradition. Thus, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the completion of God's message to humanity. Muslims also believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original form since its revelation over 1400 years ago. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has not been altered by human hands. For Muslims, this is a miracle and proof of God's concern for humanity.

Let's look at one of the most misunderstood passages of the Qur'an:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out..."

Most people usually only quote the first part.

Here's the entire passage:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Qur'an, 2:190-192)

Let's look at the interpretation of the above verses. First, examine the historical context. These verses were revealed at a time when Islam was under siege, when the small Muslim community was fighting for its very existence against powerful polytheists. The biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah bless him and give him peace, makes it very clear that the Prophet preached peacefully for the first 13 years of his mission. He left Mecca for Medina to make a new start. Even when the polytheists in Mecca were persecuting Muslims and looting their houses, the Prophet hesitated to fight. He only took up arms when God gave him permission:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them." (Qur'an, 22:39)

The first battles the Muslims waged were in self-defense. They were disciplined and adhered to strict codes of conduct. Noncombatants, including women and children were not targeted. Furthermore, the Muslims avoided destroying property, livestock, and trees.

Even as Islam spread beyond the borders of Arabia into the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires (Syria and Persia), non-Muslims were accorded certain rights. If they accepted the authority of the new Islamic government, then treaties were concluded and the non-Muslims paid a special tax, called a jizya. The options were not convert, die, or pay the tax. Instead, non-Muslims were allowed to practice their own religions and maintain their own institutions. In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax. This tax exempted them from military service and gave them special status under the Islamic system. Many non-Muslims actually welcomed Muslim rule, knowing that they had certain rights under the new system. In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax. This tribute system was very compatible with the political economy of the premodern world.

Islam could not have had the huge appeal it did if Muslims' first response was to kill "infidels." Within one hundred years of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread from Spain in the West to China in the East. Islam's initial spread was through political-military means. However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes. Muslims ruled places like the Indian subcontinent for centuries and did not forcibly convert the population. In fact, India remained majority Hindu under Muslim rule.

The Ottomans created a multi-confessional, multi-ethnic millet system where Muslims, Christian, and Jews lived together in peace. In fact, the Ottomans' elite military corp, the Janissaries, were predominantly Christian.

Islam's tolerance, and indeed welcoming, of other religions flourished in places like Spain, where Muslims cultivated an atmosphere of learning, scholarship, and art. Christians flocked to study in the universities of Muslim Spain.

Consider this:

In the Catholic Reconquista of Muslim Spain, Muslim and Spanish Jews were generally ordered to convert to Christianity, be expelled, or die.
When the Spanish Jews fled the Catholics, where did they go? They sought refuge with the Ottoman Muslims in Istanbul. This was in the 15th century. To this day, there is a Jewish quarter in Istanbul where the people still speak Spanish, descendants of the Spanish Jews who found a home with the Muslims!

Let's go back to the Qur'an:

The Qur'an says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an, 2:62)

And, the Qur'an also states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an, 2:256)

Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Today, as yesterday, and in centuries past, Islam speaks to people's hearts with the beautiful message that There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger.

This is a message that has inspired countless believers from all walks of life, a religion followed by over 1.5 billion human beings the world over, including my own family, who were raised as Christians, but discovered the beauty of Islam over three decades ago.

May Allah guide us all.

And Allah knows best.
I found the above on this page.

Definitely an interesting response. Again, would love to hear from some practicing Muslims about what's written in the Koran and how it's interpreted. What are the young Muslim men and women of today taught.

In my remembering of reading the Koran, it seemed very judgmental and not Christlike at all. Maybe it was my interpretation of it but it seemed fairly plain and easy to read and easy to understand the overall message behind it. The only reason I had read it is because I was amongst Muslims and there were some that were pushing for me to convert to Islam.

The way I see it is just another method or way to condemn someone else and divide us more by doctrine and BS. I'm not fond of any religions because of this kind of stuff.

There's no two ways about it, religions divide and separate people until they are willing to go to war over what they believe. I think it's all BS.
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 12:03 pm
@Justin,
justin, religions dont divide people. they are used to divide people by those who want to gain power over others. to say you are not fond of religions because of how they have been used is rather a peculiar remark i think. it is difficult to tell what you are referring to when you say "I think it's all BS." perhaps to give you the benefit of the doubt, i would think you mean the way religions have been used to dupe people is all BS, or the way people have blindly followed religious leaders is all BS. or...?
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 12:43 pm
@Justin,
That original article sounds like a lot of fear mongering to me. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, is planning another terrorist attack on the US, but the idea that this guy knows it will be with 'suitcase nukes', 8 years after 2001, seems pretty out there.

There's no evidence that al-qaeda or anybody other than US and soviet intelligence groups possess 'suitcase nukes'. Even if they did, these devices are not really powerful enough to do a whole lot of damage to a major city...relative to how much one would cost to acquire and smuggle around (if they even could do this). There are much more logical attack options for terrorists than suitcase nukes, as discussed by some experts, which is why when I hear about an impending attack with 'suitcase nukes', my BS alert comes on. What could you put in a sensational news article that would inspire more fear than 'suitcase nukes will be flown into major US cities'?

Justin;89614 wrote:

In my remembering of reading the Koran, it seemed very judgmental and not Christlike at all. Maybe it was my interpretation of it but it seemed fairly plain and easy to read and easy to understand the overall message behind it.


Much of this depends on the translation. I have not spent a lot of time reading the Koran, but scholars of arabic will tell you that many of the western translations of this book, its passages, and other messages we get coming from the middle east, are terribly inaccurate and out of context.
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 12:58 pm
@salima,
salima;89630 wrote:
justin, religions dont divide people. they are used to divide people by those who want to gain power over others. to say you are not fond of religions because of how they have been used is rather a peculiar remark i think. it is difficult to tell what you are referring to when you say "I think it's all BS." perhaps to give you the benefit of the doubt, i would think you mean the way religions have been used to dupe people is all BS, or the way people have blindly followed religious leaders is all BS. or...?

Don't divide people? With all the religious warfare going on how is it Relgions don't divide? Isn't gaining power over others the core of many of the popular religions? Placing God, Allah or any number of deities in the place of power over the people.

No, I'm not fond of religions or their dogma. Not at all. But that's not what this discussion is about is it? This discussion is about Islam and if you are a practicing Muslim then it would be nice to address the topic of discussion rather than dissect my personal belief on religions.

Religion has been used to dupe people. It duped my entire family while I was growing up and still has them duped. To them, Muslims are evil because that's what preached to them from the pulpit. I understand that doesn't mean all Muslims. Hence the reason for this topic.

The story, does have an element of fear mongering and it's a good topic that has been followed up with what I feel is a good response from a Muslim.

So, if anyone here or anyone reading this is a practicing Muslim I'd be interested in hearing your take on the original post and the rest of the thread. I don't see anything wrong with a discussion like this. To each their own. One thing I do hope is that by discussing this, we find common ground and understanding. Fact is we're all people. Although twisted into different beliefs and dogmas, we're all a chip off the same block.

Without further adieu, back to the topic. Islam and the promotion of removing anyone who doesn't believe in their god. Is this what the Nation of Islam is teaching it's followers?
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:25 pm
@Justin,
I am refraining from answering in anticipation of a reaction from a Muslim poster. I fear the subject will not progress as the subject of suicidal jihad is very divisive for muslims.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:43 pm
@Justin,
Justin,

I think the article sounds very fishy. Seems like a good way to sell a few books.

As for the verses you have quoted, is this supposed to support terror? I dont understand the relevance.

What I would like to know, if it was the other way around, and there were armies of muslims marching around america, like the americans march around the middle east, and support others that do that, how would americans feel?

I always feel some what annoyed when americans point to 9/11 as if it is something completely new in history and an open ticket to do anything to anyone. If we look at the poor iraqies, they have had the equivalent of a 9/11 every week for the past 20 years. The Palestinians are in the same boat, as are the chechens, kashmiris etc etc.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:50 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;89650 wrote:
Justin,

I think the article sounds very fishy. Seems like a good way to sell a few books.

As for the verses you have quoted, is this supposed to support terror? I dont understand the relevance.

What I would like to know, if it was the other way around, and there were armies of muslims marching around america, like the americans march around the middle east, and support others that do that, how would americans feel?

I always feel some what annoyed when americans point to 9/11 as if it is something completely new in history and an open ticket to do anything to anyone. If we look at the poor iraqies, they have had the equivalent of a 9/11 every week for the past 20 years. The Palestinians are in the same boat, as are the chechens, kashmiris etc etc.

Do you think that continuing terrorist attacks on the west and progressing to bigger and far more potentially dangerous attacks with dangerous repercussions for the rest of the world if not worse, is the solution, no matter what axe one has to grind committing mass murder to the point it creates chaos and mass destruction, a time bomb waitng to tick is imo extremely stupid, obviously an agreement has to be met where both sides are happy!
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:52 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;89650 wrote:

What I would like to know, if it was the other way around, and there were armies of muslims marching around america, like the americans march around the middle east, and support others that do that, how would americans feel?


I think many people fail to understand that 9/11 was very little about religion, and much more about politics; 'blowback' that was incurred by years of an aggressive US foreign policy in the middle east. The leaders of the 'extremists' are very political, and savvy about power politics and economic motives that drive much of the oppression in their land. Islam is of course one unifying factor within the movement, but I don't think you could argue that it is the motivator...it can help to mobilize the troops though, so to speak.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:56 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;89650 wrote:
Justin,

I think the article sounds very fishy. Seems like a good way to sell a few books.

As for the verses you have quoted, is this supposed to support terror? I dont understand the relevance.

What I would like to know, if it was the other way around, and there were armies of muslims marching around america, like the americans march around the middle east, and support others that do that, how would americans feel?

I always feel some what annoyed when americans point to 9/11 as if it is something completely new in history and an open ticket to do anything to anyone. If we look at the poor iraqies, they have had the equivalent of a 9/11 every week for the past 20 years. The Palestinians are in the same boat, as are the chechens, kashmiris etc etc.
I thank you for responding but you are not answering the question. I think for me I cant understand the concept of invading Islam, if France invades England i dont see it as a battle of catholics against protestants. Invading Iraq had nothing to do with attacking Islam and muslims concerns in Afghanistan , they dont condemn the Taliban, they condemn the interference in Muslim affairs.

I deplore the invasion of Palestine and the continued taking of Arab lands but it has nothing to do with my opinions of Jews or muslims.

Do you consider suicidal jihad as legitimate?

---------- Post added 09-11-2009 at 03:59 PM ----------

Pangloss;89654 wrote:
I think many people fail to understand that 9/11 was very little about religion, and much more about politics; 'blowback' that was incurred by years of an aggressive US foreign policy in the middle east. The leaders of the 'extremists' are very political, and savvy about power politics and economic motives that drive much of the oppression in their land. Islam is of course one unifying factor within the movement, but I don't think you could argue that it is the motivator...it can help to mobilize the troops though, so to speak.
So what at the time gave the Muslim terrorist the motivation to attack America ? Palestine?

If muslims had an enemy to strike it was Israel ,not America.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 03:12 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;89653 wrote:
Do you think that continuing terrorist attacks on the west and progressing to bigger and far more potentially dangerous attacks with dangerous repercussions for the rest of the world if not worse, is the solution, no matter what axe one has to grind committing mass murder to the point it creates chaos and mass destruction, a time bomb waitng to tick is imo extremely stupid, obviously an agreement has to be met where both sides are happy!


I dont think attacks on the west are the answer, I dont think the actual people of the east or the west have any issue with each other, I think they all want the same thing, food, water and a safe place for their children etc

This applies for the western terrorism in the form of puppet governements, sanctions, and double standards as well.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 03:24 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;89662 wrote:
I dont think attacks on the west are the answer, I dont think the actual people of the east or the west have any issue with each other, I think they all want the same thing, food, water and a safe place for their children etc

This applies for the western terrorism in the form of puppet governements, sanctions, and double standards as well.
So should we attack these puppet governments and install democracy or install a caliph?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 03:28 pm
@Justin,
See I think the whole thing is a scam to begin with. Try to follow my explanation.

We have special forces members who would love to do an infiltration mission to get up close and personal with our "target" and assassinate him. I am sure there are people in the US who would jump at the opportunity to learn the language, the customs, the behavior, the criteria to pass as a devout Muslim and work their way into the groups.

We have done it before with the mob in the US. Where special FBI agents spent years gaining the trust of members and doing criminal activity with them to gain their trust so they could gain a lot of information.

So if we really wanted to end these wars, all it would take is a handful or so of specially trained men to infiltrate and assassinate these supposed "terrorists". But we don't do it, but why not?

Because we are not fighting a war, we are making war a business opportunity and allowing the American citizens to give up their rights so the government can obtain more control.

Like I have said before, if you are really concerned about your freedom, the real terrorists are the American politicians.

Muslims don't care about the West having freedoms. If this were true they would be attacking Japan or Australia, but they are not attacking these free countries. Why? Because it is all a scam.
 
Shadow Dragon
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 03:31 pm
@xris,
xris;89659 wrote:
So what at the time gave the Muslim terrorist the motivation to attack America ? Palestine?

If muslims had an enemy to strike it was Israel ,not America.

That's just it, the fact that the terrorist were muslim had nothing to do with the attack. The attack happened since their leader Bin Laden hates the west and wanted to attack the most powerful western country, the US. If he did use passages from the Quran, it was just when giving his people pep talks.

I forget the exact passage, but Muslims are only suppose to fight either in defense of themselves or in defense of other people (yes including people of other religions), they aren't suppose to be the aggressive ones.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 03:36 pm
@xris,
xris;89659 wrote:

If muslims had an enemy to strike it was Israel ,not America.


You do realize that the US is a huge backer of Israel, right? We've sent them billions of dollars in aid over the years. Everyone knows this, and hence why the US is targeted along with Israel. Bin Laden also was bothered by US involvement in the gulf war.
 
 

 
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