Does anyone of you think the world can change?

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Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 08:04 am
@The Jester phil,
The Jester;94890 wrote:
I must differ. Rarely humans think first, that is the privilege of the few who want to think.

Regards,
S. Segnan


I guess it depends on what degree of thinking you are considering.

I agree with what you are saying, just pointing out that not all action is merely thoughtless, much though is ill conceived.
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 09:38 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;94892 wrote:
I guess it depends on what degree of thinking you are considering.

I agree with what you are saying, just pointing out that not all action is merely thoughtless, much though is ill conceived.
No action is thoughless at all, after all some though is needed for everthing. But its no use if you only think how you are going to do it, and not why and for what end...
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 11:00 am
@manored,
manored;95035 wrote:
No action is thoughless at all, after all some though is needed for everthing. But its no use if you only think how you are going to do it, and not why and for what end...



exactly! to take a step forward without regard for the direction or destination of your intent is not walking, it is merely moving a leg.

sounds simply because it is.
 
BeatsMeWhy
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 01:25 am
@manored,
manored;93950 wrote:

1. Everone needs a purpose, one may chose that (Making society as good as possible) as his purpose.

2. Depends of whenever you are interested in leaving a "mark" in the world after you die or not, I suppose.

3. All societies require sacrifices, then someone escapes death thanks to expensive treatment given by the government, all of the country made a small sacrifice. Sacrifices improve society in overall, and the idea behind then is: You benefit from the sacrifice of others, in exchange of being willing to do sacrifices yourself. In this example, if pay a small amount per month but, in exchange, if you do need treatment during your life you will get it. Perhaps you could not pay by yourself and would die.


Every action requires a sacrifice. It's not a characteristic of societies or interpersonal decisions. Everything is more or less a cost-benefit matter. When you are thirsty it is worth for you to spend the energy that going for a glass of water takes. Else it isn't.

I just think that, to a non believer at least, no benefit can result from dying. I guess that if you know that you'll be horribly suffering for the rest of your life you can figure out that suicide is the best option you have. But sacrifice? I don't think so. Having left a mark means nothing if you are dead.

I guess that what gives a really big inertia to society is selfishness.

Naturally, if you estimate that being selfish means going around attacking other people, then it's quite difficult to think it possible to move on from where we are, at least in the right direction, without thinking as well that we can sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others without some serious miscalculation. But I'm not that sure that stabbing people in the back is only a sign of selfishness. It's also the result of our current set of strategies. And that set of strategies is not proven to be optimal.

Consider only the huge amount of energy we spend continuously in competition and self defense and even in attacks. Much more that the amount we dedicate to really achieve things. There is a chance that really everybody would have something to gain if there was a way of controlling the strategies we learn and use.

---

Off topic...

manored;93950 wrote:
Hum, I dont get how that would be different from teaching children how to lie but that lying is bad. The only other way I can see is not teaching about lies, but that doesnt seens to be what you are talking about here.


I think we do tell children what lies are and, most times, that they are bad. But, even if we don't encourage them to lie, we don't succeed in avoiding that they obtain benefits of their own lies. It seems to be close to impossible to annulate all the possible positive effects of a lie every time a child tells one.

Nevertheless, a very young child is easily caught when it tells a lie. It would mean constant attention from everybody around to ascertain that the consequences are not good for the child (from the child's point of view), but maybe it can be done. Because if it never achieves anything by telling lies, then it will not practice much, and will never be any good at it.

The real problem is that it is not only lies, but also aggressive behavior, and laziness, and... probably lots of undesirable strategies we haven't noticed to be wrong so far.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:28 am
@Caroline,
kennethamy;91094 wrote:
Into what?......


Caroline;91109 wrote:
Yeah into what, just be.


I like these responses, short and to the point, and so true, as so many think what can "I" do. For those who are concerned are those who create their own discernment as they can see no truth in it all from the input their senses are receiving. It seems all so complicated and we go to our grave as a result to trying to figure it all out and how "we" must change.

Let me offer, they must just dust off the dirt that has been thrown their way from those who caused them to doubt who they are and just let it be. Everyone has a purpose in this world, or they would not be here, as they are well enough to be left alone as the truth will naturally come to them as they need it. No one can "mess" with it, or it becomes a mess for those who try to change into something they are not, or effort to change at the behest of another.

The Earth is spinning in control, it is us that are spinning out as we try to figure it all out. Leave it alone and just try to go with it's flow and be yourself, that's all you need to know. Others may ask to offer and that's okay, but if it doesn't fit, ask them of offer to another whom it may fit in someway, as we say "no, but thanks, anyway; I'm doing okay just as "I am". :whistling:

William
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 08:23 am
@BeatsMeWhy,
If we all worked together then the world can change and of course it comes from within too.
Thanks folks.
Peace out.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 11:54 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;96883 wrote:
If we all worked together then the world can change and of course it comes from within too.
Thanks folks.
Peace out.


Who will be appointed to decide in what way the world should be changed?
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 12:02 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
BMW;96845 wrote:
Every action requires a sacrifice. It's not a characteristic of societies or interpersonal decisions. Everything is more or less a cost-benefit matter. When you are thirsty it is worth for you to spend the energy that going for a glass of water takes. Else it isn't.

I just think that, to a non believer at least, no benefit can result from dying. I guess that if you know that you'll be horribly suffering for the rest of your life you can figure out that suicide is the best option you have. But sacrifice? I don't think so. Having left a mark means nothing if you are dead.
If you dont believe in an afterlife, that indeed is true, but, then, nothing at all seens to have value either. What is the point of living now if you will die anyway? Why not jump straigh to that sweet unexistence and be rid of all troubles?

BMW;96845 wrote:

Consider only the huge amount of energy we spend continuously in competition and self defense and even in attacks. Much more that the amount we dedicate to really achieve things. There is a chance that really everybody would have something to gain if there was a way of controlling the strategies we learn and use.
But, if you are selfish, you will inevitably try to take from others to yourself. You stabilish a contract with someone, but, because you are selfish, you slowly try to find ways around the contract to gain more. Because the other person is also selfish, it does the same. Soon it turns into war.

BMW;96845 wrote:


I think we do tell children what lies are and, most times, that they are bad. But, even if we don't encourage them to lie, we don't succeed in avoiding that they obtain benefits of their own lies. It seems to be close to impossible to annulate all the possible positive effects of a lie every time a child tells one.

Nevertheless, a very young child is easily caught when it tells a lie. It would mean constant attention from everybody around to ascertain that the consequences are not good for the child (from the child's point of view), but maybe it can be done. Because if it never achieves anything by telling lies, then it will not practice much, and will never be any good at it.

The real problem is that it is not only lies, but also aggressive behavior, and laziness, and... probably lots of undesirable strategies we haven't noticed to be wrong so far.
Necessity is the mother of invention. We would need to watch over someone its whole life to prevent it from developing bad strategies. I think there is no way around it other than to get rid of the reasons we develop these strategies.

William;96850 wrote:

The Earth is spinning in control, it is us that are spinning out as we try to figure it all out. Leave it alone and just try to go with it's flow and be yourself, that's all you need to know. Others may ask to offer and that's okay, but if it doesn't fit, ask them of offer to another whom it may fit in someway, as we say "no, but thanks, anyway; I'm doing okay just as "I am". :whistling:

William
I cannot be anything other than what I am. Am I trying to change myself or someone else? Thats caused by what I am... =)

Caroline;96883 wrote:
If we all worked together then the world can change and of course it comes from within too.
Thanks folks.
Peace out.
Problem is that people always have different ideas of what the world should be like. Thats why we end up not working together.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 12:26 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;96923 wrote:
Who will be appointed to decide in what way the world should be changed?



Now THAT is the 64 thousand dollar question!
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 12:43 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;96923 wrote:
Who will be appointed to decide in what way the world should be changed?
Well the UN is a good idea, that kind of thing, an appointed person from each country to represent it's people.

manored;96924 wrote:

Problem is that people always have different ideas of what the world should be like. Thats why we end up not working together.

Well that's the key, I guess most people, ie,the public would like peace.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 12:53 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;96933 wrote:
Well the UN is a good idea, that kind of thing, an appointed person from each country to represent it's people.


Isn't this pretty much the system we have right now? Or does that need to be changed?


Caroline;96933 wrote:
Well that's the key, I guess most people, ie,the public would like peace.


Perhaps. But is it possible?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 01:05 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;96934 wrote:
Isn't this pretty much the system we have right now? Or does that need to be changed?
It started out with good intentions. Any system has to be corruption proof so it has to be regulated by several different agencies such as each country, to prevent this.

TickTockMan;96934 wrote:
Perhaps. But is it possible?
Don't know until you try huh? Besides what else are you going to to?
 
BeatsMeWhy
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 02:06 pm
@manored,
manored;96924 wrote:
If you dont believe in an afterlife, that indeed is true, but, then, nothing at all seens to have value either. What is the point of living now if you will die anyway? Why not jump straigh to that sweet unexistence and be rid of all troubles?

Because I don't feel the urge to do so. It must be one of those evolutive things Razz.

manored;96924 wrote:
But, if you are selfish, you will inevitably try to take from others to yourself. You stabilish a contract with someone, but, because you are selfish, you slowly try to find ways around the contract to gain more. Because the other person is also selfish, it does the same. Soon it turns into war.

If you are selfish you certainly will do what you think is better for you. If you figure your best option is to go assaulting other people, you will. I simply think maybe it really is not the best option.

manored;96924 wrote:
Necessity is the mother of invention. We would need to watch over someone its whole life to prevent it from developing bad strategies. I think there is no way around it other than to get rid of the reasons we develop these strategies.

Well, I think we might develop alternative strategies. It seems that it is not easy to change them once you are an adult.

By the way, I cannot think of something, or even some circumstance that, if removed or avoided, would prevent us from learning to lie. Unless the absolute lack of success whenever we try to.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 02:12 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;96935 wrote:
It started out with good intentions. Any system has to be corruption proof so it has to be regulated by several different agencies such as each country, to prevent this.


So we're back to letting a form of appointed and elected government officials and organizations decide what is best for us. Is that what you are saying?

Caroline;96935 wrote:
Don't know until you try huh? Besides what else are you going to to?


Under this system, apparently, exactly what I'm doing right now.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:01 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;96958 wrote:
So we're back to letting a form of appointed and elected government officials and organizations decide what is best for us. Is that what you are saying?
I'm saying elect a representative to represent what the people want, not a power trip or anything like that.

TickTockMan;96958 wrote:
Under this system, apparently, exactly what I'm doing right now.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
Thanks.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:14 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;96964 wrote:
I'm saying elect a representative to represent what the people want, not a power trip or anything like that.


Is this something that would be voted on by the people who want to be represented?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:29 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Yes indeed, voted by all the people. Or do you mean majority of votes win?
Thanks.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:34 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;96973 wrote:
Yes indeed, voted by all the people. Or do you mean majority of votes win?
Thanks.


But what if all the people don't want to vote? Should they be made to vote?

And yes, I think majority vote should win.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:42 pm
@BeatsMeWhy,
Well if the people want something then surly they know they must vote a person who will reflect/represent their opinions and values.
Goodnight folks it's past my bedtime!
Cheers!
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 03:54 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;96978 wrote:
Well if the people want something then surly they know they must vote a person who will reflect/represent there opinions.


Not necessarily.
 
 

 
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