The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

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boagie
 
Reply Fri 30 May, 2008 06:20 am
@nameless,
Nameless,

Right!Smile I have some magic beans for sale.:rolleyes: You need to explain such a statement--------or your nose is going to grow!Very Happy
 
nameless
 
Reply Fri 30 May, 2008 02:35 pm
@boagie,
nameless wrote:
I think that 'will' is just another egoic (lie/fantasy) Pinoccio wanting to be (fantasizing that it is) a real boy.


boagie wrote:
Nameless,
Right!Smile I have some magic beans for sale.:rolleyes: You need to explain such a statement--------or your nose is going to grow!Very Happy

boagie,
Is is not a reasonable hypothesis that as 'free-will' and 'choice' are no more than egoic fantasies, that 'will' is of the same 'ilk'? 'Will'? To 'do' what? There is no 'doing' but in appearances. The ego imagines 'authorship' of 'doing/universe'. We, as Perspectives, 'author' nothing, nor do or can we 'change what is. If we display the vanity of assuming 'authorship/creatorship', the vanity of 'will' must also be assumed.

(I'll trade you my 'wise apple' (take a bite and it makes you wise!) for your 'magic beans'?)
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 30 May, 2008 02:47 pm
@nameless,
Nameless,Smile

Who or what then responded to my previous post? Explain to me as well the process, which does not involve your will or your intent, it is indeed magic you do here:p
 
nameless
 
Reply Fri 30 May, 2008 03:07 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Nameless,Smile

Who or what then responded to my previous post? Explain to me as well the process, which does not involve your will or your intent, it is indeed magic you do here:p

I think, my friend, that if you consider existence as a bunch of simultaneously 'existing' (Planck) moments, each quantumly discrete, like any still frame from a movie, you might better understand this perspective.
Who is 'responding'? Me! This Perspective.
Ahhh, the 'process'. 'Process' is an illusion of 'Perspective'. You look at the film frames from a certain perspective, linear and consecutively, and there appears motion. From that apparent motion, we posit 'processes'. That is an illusion. There are just static frames' of moments. The Magic of Perspective is what appears to give 'life' to the 'experience that is existence'. Wonderful magic! But all in mind as Perspective.
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 30 May, 2008 04:01 pm
@nameless,
Nameless,Smile

If you then understand the topic of this thread please put it in the context of your theory, is it then neither/nor. If that is the case, there is nothing for you to address here.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 02:24 am
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Nameless,Smile

If you then understand the topic of this thread please put it in the context of your theory...

The point that I am making relevent to the topic "The Selfish Nature Of All Actions" is that 'actions' need not be seen as 'selfish'. It is from a particular perspective that 'behavior' can be viewed ('correctly') as selfish. There are perspectives, such as I have described, where the 'concept' of 'selfishness' becomes meaningless. Doesn't exist.
So [QUOTE]"This is a premise a great many people have difficulty accepting." [/QUOTE]is not a 'universal' premise, but a perspectival premise.
[QUOTE]"The religious might find this difficult to incorporated or embrace but it is necessarily universal.[/QUOTE]
Only to particular 'universes'/Perspectives.
[QUOTE]I don't believe you can find an acception to this premise,you are invited to do so of course." [/QUOTE]
Did and done!

"Wherever there is yin, there must, necessarily, be yang." -Book of Fudd

Peace
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 08:41 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
The point that I am making relevent to the topic "The Selfish Nature Of All Actions" is that 'actions' need not be seen as 'selfish'. It is from a particular perspective that 'behavior' can be viewed ('correctly') as selfish. There are perspectives, such as I have described, where the 'concept' of 'selfishness' becomes meaningless. Doesn't exist.
So is not a 'universal' premise, but a perspectival premise.
[/i]
Only to particular 'universes'/Perspectives.

Did and done!

"Wherever there is yin, there must, necessarily, be yang." -Book of Fudd

Peace


Nameless, Smile

Understanding and accepting your perspective, necessarily does negated the problem, for in the eturnal moment there is no circumstance to deal with, all is a blurry one with no distinctions, no duality, nothing to act upon, good luck finding your way home tonight, or do we just define the blur as home.:eek:


"Wherever there is yin, there must, necessarily, be yang." -Book of Fudd

How is it your Fudd is dealing with duality in the eturnal moment?Very Happy
 
No0ne
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 01:10 pm
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
I do not accept the premise. It has never been demonstrated that such a thing as 'free-will' and 'choice' are anything more than egoic prideful vanity. All that is 'selfish', is the 'egoic fantasy'.

"We do not possess an ''ego'', we are possessed by the idea of one."
Wei Wu Wei





Yet all action's in some way can be seen as selfish, yet the hole point is the intent of the person doing the action, so to that person they would view there own actions with no selfish intent, yet when someone els look's at that action from a difrent point of view therefore taking it out of context, would come to the thought that that person's action was an selfish act...

...There reason for doing there action or reason for thinking that way would have to be from intended display of pridful vanity, and since the reason most people do an act of compastion and love would not be from a pridfullness vanity like urge, therefore that comment dose not applie to all, only those that pridfull egotistical A-hole's ^.^

I follow the concept of do onto another as want done onto my self some could say it's my freewill choice to follow it or not follow it, yet i follow it because im selfish and i would not want such thing's dont onto my self, and i dont take pride in displaying that action nor do i take pride in my concealed act's of humbelness and humility, the reason why I do such onto others? because I would not want such done onto my self, it's a selfish act that i display, yet in turn it's also an selfless act at the same time, canceling out the selfish act, therefore making it just a prideless action lacking vanity when done with humility and humbelness, for i have no need to show off or show you up in anyway shape or form...and the reason's i do this, what person said you had to have one?

Yet dont forget about "mercy" for mercy is displayed mainly without vanity or created by an egotistical sense of fanisty
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 01:17 pm
@No0ne,
:)All actions fulfill the will of the individual, and in this sense all human actions are first selfish, even those actions of great sacrifice.Wink If it were not so, there would be no reason to celebrate the courage of the hero.Wink
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 11:47 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
Yet all action's in some way can be seen as selfish,

From a 'particular' perspective, of course. From another perspective, not. And the whole spectrum between.
"For every perspective, there is an equal and opposite perspective!" -Book of Fudd

Quote:
yet the whole point is the intent of the person doing the action,

What if a person does a spell and a curse with the intent of killing the victim. The victim dies. Gets run over in the street. Do we punish the witch because her intent was murderous? She bekieves that she was responsible, do you? Will a jury?

Quote:
so to that person they would view there own actions with no selfish intent, yet when someone els look's at that action from a difrent point of view therefore taking it out of context, would come to the thought that that person's action was an selfish act...

There you go, all a matter of perspective.

Quote:
...Their reason for doing their action or reason for thinking that way would have to be from intended display of prideful vanity,

It is displayed all the time, intended (rarely) or unaware of the mechanism (most of the time).

Quote:
and since the reason most people do an act of compastion and love would not be from a pridfullness vanity like urge,

You'd have to define your meaning of compassion and love. If 'compassion' means doing something for someone less fortunate than you are, then, yes, that is prideful. Pity is an act of vanity.
I 'love you' so I want you to 'be like I say', like me... Vanity..

Quote:
I follow the concept of do onto another as want done onto my self some could say it's my freewill choice to follow it or not follow it, yet i follow it because im selfish and i would not want such thing's dont onto my self,

If you 'follow a slogan' it is because that is your nature to behave thus. Thinking that it is your choice is vanity. Thinking that there is a 'choice' is scientific ignorance, and perspective.

Quote:
and i dont take pride in displaying that action nor do i take pride in my concealed act's of humbelness and humility,

The very act of sharing this sentence is an act of vanity. You obviously think 'humility' is a 'positive' characteristic, and by mentioning it, are bragging. A truly humble person would never say it with his mouth, nay, never even think it in his mind! If he is humble, others will say it for him! See what I mean?
"The ego is the subtlest creature in the garden!" -Book of Fudd
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 31 May, 2008 11:53 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
All actions fulfill ... If it were not so, there would be no reason to celebrate the courage of the hero.

Certainly you are being facetious?
That is the same non-logic that argued that abortion should be legal because the preggos are hurting themselves when they get illegal abortions. Why not make bank robbery legal because robbers get hurt in high speed chases and gun-play with cops. Like saying that Xmas is proof that Jesus actually existed! (rolls eyes) *__-
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 08:29 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Certainly you are being facetious?
That is the same non-logic that argued that abortion should be legal because the preggos are hurting themselves when they get illegal abortions. Why not make bank robbery legal because robbers get hurt in high speed chases and gun-play with cops. Like saying that Xmas is proof that Jesus actually existed! (rolls eyes) *__-


nameless,

All actions fulfill the will of the subject, what is facetious about that, its basic motivational theory. As for the rest of the tangent, you've lost me:confused:
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:38 am
@nameless,
How did that old saying go? "I have ego therefore I am"?
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:41 am
@boagie,
I sadly have to disagree on this count.

I suspect a large number of people have at some point helped someone just because they felt sorry for them, had no personal gain to be made and potentially may have chosen to remain anonymous in the process.
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:48 am
@simon phil,
simon wrote:
I sadly have to disagree on this count.

I suspect a large number of people have at some point helped someone just because they felt sorry for them, had no personal gain to be made and potentially may have chosen to remain anonymous in the process.


Simon,Smile

If helping them did not then become your will, you would not have taken any action to be of aid.
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:52 am
@simon phil,
Have you considered Idealism? Each has his own perception of what society should be. Within this idealistic framework you have an idea of how everyone should act. Bearing in mind personal experience as a shaping force in our lives, It only takes one negative influence and consideration to reshape the way we think. Self projection is common. We picture ourselves in another's place easily. Empathy. You may argue that it is selfish to assist another and that even bearing empathy in mind we are subconsciously assisting ourselves. However, assuming you believe in "choice", a choice is made to empathise, and less arguably, a choice is made to assist.
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:56 am
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Simon,Smile

If helping them did not then become your will, you would not have taken any action to be of aid.


Sorry - I don't follow. Are you saying "If I didn't want to do anything to help I wouldn't"?
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 09:57 am
@simon phil,
simon wrote:
Have you considered Idealism? Each has his own perception of what society should be. Within this idealistic framework you have an idea of how everyone should act. Bearing in mind personal experience as a shaping force in our lives, It only takes one negative influence and consideration to reshape the way we think. Self projection is common. We picture ourselves in another's place easily. Empathy. You may argue that it is selfish to assist another and that even bearing empathy in mind we are subconsciously assisting ourselves. However, assuming you believe in "choice", a choice is made to empathise, and less arguably, a choice is made to assist.


Simon,

How ever you get there, motivation proceeds action, action is the fulfillment of the will: The psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behaviour.
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 10:08 am
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Simon,

How ever you get there, motivation proceeds action, action is the fulfillment of the will: The psychological feature that arouses an organism to action toward a desired goal; the reason for the action; that which gives purpose and direction to behaviour.



Indeed. Yet if the motivation is seeing another happy, the arguament that the action is selfish becomes decidedly dodgy. How do you define selfish? Someone might state "I like seeing the people around me happy". You could state that they are a bad person because their motivation was purely to please themselves, yet if you were to ask for the definition of someoe who wasn't selfish you'd get exactly that, or an obscure reference to someone who didn't like people to be happy but did so anyway and had no idea why... Of course with any being that demonstrates a logical or reasoning ability this becomes rather unlikely...
 
simon phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Jun, 2008 10:11 am
@simon phil,
This no longer becomes a question of "selfish". It becomes a question of "Can I find evidence of free will here that defies logic and reason"? Bearing in mind you discuss physical actions with physical forces at work, that the forces are all being quantified, the hope appears to be to spot something that isn't quantified?
 
 

 
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