The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

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boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:14 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
But a convulsion is a totally different thing than tripping, slipping on ice, or falling down the stairs. A convulsion is a subconscious action like breathing. The other are involuntary, but still happen at the conscious level.



Theaetetus:)

Convulsion is involentary, tripping is one would think involentary, there is a body consciousness which takes care of necessary functions like breathing and heart rate, but that is not what we think of a conscious intent, these involentary actions are in a sense automated.

Zetherin wrote:
Voluntary:
done or undertaken by free choice

Desire:
To wish or long for; want.

Every action intended (voluntary) isn't necessarily desired. Desired implies the action was considered, and emotional connection made -- wanting. Every step walking down the street is voluntary, but each step doesn't involve the subject consciously *wanting* the next step to take place. It's something not even thought or considered about, usually.

Not all actions are voluntary, and in these cases there would be no intent at all. Therefore, we cannot say all actions are of self-intent. And, from what I've noted above, we cannot say that even all voluntary actions breathe desire, as desire is a product of consideration, and consideration is not present during every voluntary action.


Zetherin:)

While you can fool with terminology, but intent infers the desire to do, to take action consciously, if you think that you walk without intent, well then we have nothing to discuss. I have already delt with body consciousness and the involentary necessary functions such as breathing and heart rate in an above post.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:23 pm
@Zetherin,
boagie wrote:
Zetherin:)

While you can fool with terminology, but intent infers the desire to do, to take action consciously, if you think that you walk without intent, well then we have nothing to discuss. I have already delt with body consciousness and the involentary necessary functions such as breathing and heart rate in an above post.


Do you consciously consider every step you make and desire it?

If not, we have nothing to discuss, you're right. If so, I'd like to know how you haven't gone crazy already.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:33 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Do you consciously consider every step you make and desire it?

If not, we have nothing to discuss, you're right. If so, I'd like to know how you haven't gone crazy already.


Zetherin,Smile

Are you seriously telling me that you have no intent when walking to place one foot in front of the other? How then does this occur, if you are saying that body consciousness takes over in much the same way as breathing or heart rate, then yes, your steps are unintentional, you are then automated, but, if it is not conscious intent, in the usual sense, it then is not applicable to the conscious intent of which we are talking about, it is then involentary like your breathing.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:34 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Theaetetus:)

Convulsion is involentary, tripping is one would think involentary, there is a body consciousness which takes care of necessary functions like breathing and heart rate, but that is not what we think of a conscious intent, these involentary actions are in a sense automated.


You bring up an interesting distinction that must be made. There are voluntary and involuntary actions. But there are subcategories of involuntary actions. There are those that are conscious such as tripping, and there are those that are subconscious like breathing.

The conscious intent that you speak of, Zetherin pretty much eliminated it as a meaningful distinction. Walking is a voluntary action with conscious intent, and each successive step is voluntary, but is not done with conscious intent. People would go insane on a regular basis while doing repeated actions if there was conscious intent behind each one.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:43 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
You bring up an interesting distinction that must be made. There are voluntary and involuntary actions. But there are subcategories of involuntary actions. There are those that are conscious such as tripping, and there are those that are subconscious like breathing.

The conscious intent that you speak of Zetherin pretty much eliminated it as a meaningful distinction. Walking is a voluntary action with conscious intent, and each successive step is voluntary, but is not done with conscious intent. People would go insane on a regular basis while doing repeated actions if there was conscious intent behind each one.


Theaetetus,Smile

Tipping becomes conscious, it is not intended, again breathing is handled by body consciousness automated for lack of a better word, it is not intentional in the usual sense. Again, with walking, there is intent to walk, if then it is taken over by body consciousness then you have relatively involentary action, there is an element of this I suppose as when one is driving, it becomes to some extent automated, but you must first intend to drive. I would to maintain that in the process of walking, in the process of driving a certain portion of the brain is devoted to the intent, othewise you would cease the process.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 09:59 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Theaetetus,Smile

Tipping becomes conscious, it is not intended, again breathing is handled by body consciousness automated for lack of a better word, it is not intentional in the usual sense. Again, with walking, there is intent to walk, if then it is taken over by body consciousness then you have relatively involentary action, there is an element of this I suppose as when one is driving, it becomes to some extent automated, but you must first intend to drive. I would to maintain that in the process of walking, in the process of driving a certain portion of the brain is devoted to the intent, othewise you would cease the process.


The action presupposing actions that follow (further steps, continuation of driving) may be of intent, but this does not imply every voluntary action following must be on of intent. Those further steps and that continuation of driving are voluntary, yet we aren't consciously considering every second to desire the action.

According to you, the first action desired through any chain of events, regardless what it was, must mean that we're desiring every action that follows. This is not always true, as we've noted. Again, back to the hypothetical, if I'm tripping and for a split second decide where to land my other foot-- without time to apply any emotional attachment (desire) -- this would be an action that followed from an action I may have desired (walking), but this particular action would not have been desired. Did you desire to plant your foot in the dog ****, accidentally, in order to catch your balance?
Quote:

I would to maintain that in the process of walking, in the process of driving a certain portion of the brain is devoted to the intent, othewise you would cease the process.
But it has nothing to do with desire, is the point. It would have intent if it was a voluntary action, yes, but not necessarily a desire. I think there's a difference.
 
ACB
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:05 pm
@boagie,
As I understand it, a voluntary action is by its very definition an action that one wants/desires to do. (Latin volo - I want). There are, however, degrees of volition/desire. I would regard normal walking as voluntary/desired to a limited extent.

A totally involuntary action is not really an 'action' at all on the victim's part, but merely a movement, so it is irrelevant to this thread.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:13 pm
@boagie,
Our voluntary decisions are much grosser than the neuromuscular mechanisms that make them possible. If I decide to flex my bicep, I have no conscious control over how many of my muscle fibers actually contract, how much acetylcholine gets released from my motor nerves, etc.

Walking is similar, in which we employ a whole lot of complex biology for a generally simple decision. Even when we're really concentrating on it (like if we're walking on very slippery ground), we only have control over so much.

So the discussion of will really needs to rest at the level of our conscious decisions and intentions, not unintended consequences that were beyond what we could consider.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:15 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
The action presupposing actions that follow (further steps, continuation of driving) may be of intent, but this does not imply every voluntary action following must be on of intent. Those further steps and that continuation of driving are voluntary, yet we aren't consciously considering every second to desire the action.

According to you, the first action desired through any chain of events, regardless what it was, must mean that we're desiring every action that follows. This is not always true, as we've noted. Again, back to the hypothetical, if I'm tripping and for a split second decide where to land my other foot-- without time to apply any emotional attachment (desire) -- this would be an action that followed from an action I may have desired (walking), but it would not have been desired. Did you desire to plant your foot in the dog ****, accidentally, in order to catch your balance?


Zetherin;Smile

Actually, in walking as in driving, your intention is merged with the orginal intent, it becomes a feedback system, adjusting to the terrain, adjusting to balance, the adjustments that you are constently making are intentional, now to a certain extent this might be attributed to body consciousness, but to think that there is no conscious intent in controlling your vehicle or controlling your balance as the terrain changes is not likely. You are one system controlling another system, in the case of a car, as the case of walking you are controlling your body in relation to the said changing terrain, changing direction of your vehicle. To say there is no intention here is really a stretch. Walking requires constant adjustments, diving requires constant adjustments, again to some degree it becomes automated, but to say it is absolute, no way.


"But it has nothing to do with desire, is the point. It would have intent if it was a voluntary action, yes, but not necessarily a desire. I think there's a difference." quote

Again, intent infers desire to do, perhaps you should give us your defination of desire. Hunger is a desire that moves us to intent, is then your defination limited to need, a yearning for something needed?
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:32 pm
@boagie,
This thread should now be called "The Selfish Nature of All Intentional Actions" considering action is defined in such a way that only desired, intended actions fall under consideration.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:35 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
This thread should now be called "The Selfish Nature of All Intentional Actions" considering action is defined in such a way that only desired, intended actions fall under consideration.


Actually, it should be called "The Self-Intent of All Voluntary Actions".

Because, as I've noted, Self-Intent ≠ Selfishness. Placing "Selfish" in the mix completely butchered this thread. Boagie did not mean to bring morality into the picture at all -- this comes after the fact.

Boagie, I stand corrected. I now see where you are coming from.

Thanks for the discussion.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:36 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
This thread should now be called "The Selfish Nature of All Intentional Actions" considering action is defined in such a way that only desired, intended actions fall under consideration.



Theaetetus,Smile

Yes our consciousness is only concerned with conscious intentions. Excellent!!
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 10:46 pm
@boagie,
Yes, thank you for the discussion all that were involved. Now we should put this subject to rest as there is nothing else that can be said on the topic. I think consensus has been reached.
 
boagie
 
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 11:16 pm
@Theaetetus,
Thank you all for relieving me of a great frustration, it is much appreciated!!Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 09:56 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Actually, it should be called "The Self-Intent of All Voluntary Actions".

Because, as I've noted, Self-Intent ≠ Selfishness. Placing "Selfish" in the mix completely butchered this thread. Boagie did not mean to bring morality into the picture at all -- this comes after the fact.

Boagie, I stand corrected. I now see where you are coming from.

Thanks for the discussion.


If self-intent means "voluntary" then I too agree that all voluntary actions are self-intended. Since all that means is that all voluntary actions are voluntary. And who would disagree with that? Of course, it is not exactly a scoop. But it is true. I'll now tell you another marvelous truth, all cats are cats. (I hope this relieves Boagie too).
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:16 am
@boagie,
boagie;50717 wrote:
Thank you all for relieving me of a great frustration, it is much appreciated!!Smile
It's your thread, Boagie, I'll end it if you'd like.
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 10:58 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
It's your thread, Boagie, I'll end it if you'd like.


Aedes,Smile

Thank you Aedes, I think that would be most appropriate.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 26 Feb, 2009 11:02 am
@boagie,
boagie;50799 wrote:
Aedes,Smile

Thank you Aedes, I think that would be most appropriate.
How selfish of you Wink

j/k

Thanks all for participating.
 
erikk21
 
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2014 07:05 pm
First of all, sorry for my english, is not my first language and im fu*cking tired as well since it's in the middle of the night, and I dont really have the energy to check for spelling mistakes and so on!

No, every action does not have to be selfish, even if it of course could be like that. Here is why:

1. First of all, a lot of actions are unconscious, and even if we make an exception and say that we only care about conscious ones, how can we actuallt determine if an action is conscious or not? It might very well seem obvious, if you feel that you are able to decide, its a conscious action and so on.

However, it is not necessary that simple, imagine that you're walking towards a road junction, and you can either turn left or right. Suppose you're in the middle of your decision-making, and at exactly that time (imagine you could stop the time) you feel a little stronger for turning left. We start the time again for a very short time interval, and then stop it once again. This time, the feeling of turning left is even stronger, so strong that you will possibly do it in a microsecond after we start time again. But this time, in less than a microsecond, an unconsciuos action takes place, changing your feeling from "I wanna turn left" to "let's turn right". This happens so fast that your mind is not even aware of it, and then directly after, you simply turn left thinking that this was your decision but you don't know when you actually decided because you weren't aware of it! The point is, very many actions might seem to be conscious, but just becaue they seem to they doesn't have to be.

2. I understand the argument which says that if you didn't want to do it, you wouldn't have done it. But, that's just a hypothesis, it doesnt have to work like that. For instance; Suppose that there is a specie that works like this in 99.9999999% of the time, but in the remaining cases, they (the members of the specie) do exactly the opposite. Most probably, this happens so selldom, so this specie would certainly be able to reproduce and be evolutionary successful. To say that this is wrong, you have to prove that such a specie cannot arise, which is really really hard. Or at least you have to prove that humans doesnt work like that, and how do you do that?
 
 

 
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