The Fatal Paradox

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Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:07 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;161106 wrote:
Every event has a cause.


I think this is a nonsensical view. If every event has to have a cause and causes are events then every event's causes need a cause and so forth. This leads to an infinite regress of causes. Of course, some people may say "so what". But the problem is that each of these causes rests on, depends on, yet another cause. It's hard to see how, individually, any of these causes can come into to existence when their existence rests on yet another cause which falls under the same argument.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:16 am
@Night Ripper,
[QUOTE=Night Ripper;161232]I think this is a nonsensical view. If every event has to have a cause and causes are events then every event's causes need a cause and so forth. This leads to an infinite regress of causes. Of course, some people may say "so what". But the problem is that each of these causes rests on, depends on, yet another cause. It's hard to see how, individually, any of these causes can come into to existence when their existence rests on yet another cause which falls under the same argument.[/QUOTE]I'm with Extrain on this one, as I too believe that every event has a cause.

However, when I say that every event has a cause, what I really mean is that every macro-event has a cause. I do leave room for the possibility that micro-events may not have a cause. This could be interpreted, I suppose, to mean that I do not believe that every event has a cause, but I'm not a Libertarian, for Libertarians are those that 1) believe in free will and 2) do not believe that all macro-events have a cause.

So, as far as I'm concerned, just treat "event" as "macro-event".
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:20 am
@fast,
fast;161235 wrote:
I'm with Extrain on this one, as I too believe that every event has a cause.

However, when I say that every event has a cause, what I really mean is that every macro-event has a cause. I do leave room for the possibility that micro-events may not have a cause. This could be interpreted, I suppose, to mean that I do not believe that every event has a cause, but I'm not a Libertarian, for Libertarians are those that 1) believe in free will and 2) do not believe that all macro-events have a cause.

So, as far as I'm concerned, just treat "event" as "macro-event".


It doesn't matter what prefix you add to the word "event". Either every macro-event has a cause and my previous criticism stands or there are some macro-events that happen but aren't caused.

I also think it's a mistake to divide the universe into micro and macro like that as if there were a real demarcation in the world and not something we've created.
 
xelzaar
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 08:26 am
@Night Ripper,
Hi, I'm new to this forum. Having problems following everybody's points.

Would somebody please give me a summary on where the argument currently stands?
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:03 am
@Night Ripper,
[QUOTE=Night Ripper;161232]But the problem is that each of these causes rests on, depends on, yet another cause. It's hard to see how, individually, any of these causes can come into to existence when their existence rests on yet another cause which falls under the same argument.[/QUOTE]Don't look at so many at once. I think every event has a cause, so I think even the events before my birth had a cause, but I need not worry about first cause or any event prior to my birth when considering the events that occur today. Why would my not knowing about the first causes have a bearing on the causes of today? Would you rather I said that every event that has occurred this century has a cause?

[QUOTE]I also think it's a mistake to divide the universe into micro and macro like that as if there were a real demarcation in the world and not something we've created.[/QUOTE]Science has given us a reason to think that some micro-events are uncaused, but science hasn't given us a reason to think that some macro-events are uncaused, so I don't think it's a mistake.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:10 am
@fast,
fast;161246 wrote:
Don't look at so many at once. I think every event has a cause, so I think even the events before my birth had a cause, but I need not worry about first cause or any event prior to my birth when considering the events that occur today. Why would my not knowing about the first causes have a bearing on the causes of today? Would you rather I said that every event that has occurred this century has a cause?


Be prepared to follow the logical implications of your beliefs. If you have a problem with infinite regressions, and I think you should, then you should also have a problem with the belief that everything is caused.

fast;161246 wrote:
Science has given us a reason to think that some micro-events are uncaused, but science hasn't given us a reason to think that some macro-events are uncaused, so I don't think it's a mistake.


What defines a micro-event from a macro-event? Hint: it's a convention, nothing more. Quantum weirdness has no inherent scale limitations. We made entire molecules interfere with themselves. I haven't been following things recently but we are ramping up for an experiment with an entire organism at some point.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:38 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;161248 wrote:
Be prepared to follow the logical implications of your beliefs. If you have a problem with infinite regressions, and I think you should, then you should also have a problem with the belief that everything is caused.
I don't see that I need to take this road with you. I never set out to defend my position but rather to differentiate between the different positions.

If you think it's false that every macro-event has a cause, then you are an Indeterminist. If you, as an Indeterminist, believe in free will, then you are also a Libertarian, and if you are a believer in free will and an Indeterminist, then you're also an Incompatibilist. So, you are:
1) a believer in free will (Free Willer)
2) a nonbeliever that all events have a cause (Indeterminist)
3) an Incompatibilist--(type 1 of 2)
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:49 am
@fast,
fast;161255 wrote:
I never set out to defend my position but rather to differentiate between the different positions.


Well then you got in the way of my attack on Extrain's position. See post #221. Determinism is false and therefore compatibilism is false. If you believe in free will, the only option left is Libertarianism.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 09:54 am
@kennethamy,
[CENTER]Let's put this thread back on track[/CENTER]


Let's pretend that I am a Fatalist. If I am a Fatilist, then I believe that Fatalism is true, but that I believe something is true isn't to say that what I believe is true, so let's also pretend that Fatalism is true, for that says nothing about what I believe but rather how things actually are. But, let's not merely pretend that Fatalism is true, for not even pretending that it's true makes it true. So, suppose it's true (as if it's actually true) that Fatilism is true. I ask everyone to do this because I want to see what kind of a world I live in if I live in a world where Fatalism is true.

P1) If Fatalism is true, then I need not look both ways before crossing the street, for what will happen must happen. I'm not espousing that position. It's merely a proposition being put up for consideration. Is the proposition true (in a fatalistic world, that is)?

P2) If Fatalism is true, then I cannot (and thus will not) look both ways before crossing the street.

P3) If fatalism is true, than I can (but will not) look both ways before crossing the street.

Knowing whether those propositions are true or false (and why) may help us to make some progress.

---------- Post added 05-07-2010 at 12:00 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Night Ripper;161257]Well then you got in the way of my attack on Extrain's position. See post #221. Determinism is false and therefore compatibilism is false. If you believe in free will, the only option left is Libertarianism.[/QUOTE]
If Determinism is false, then Compatibilism is false. On that, we agree. But, no one should seriously think Determinism if false. If you think that because you have an issue with infinite regression, then fine, but meanwhile, I'm more interested in how all this relates to fatalism. No one should be assuming Determinism is false in pursuit of that.

In analogy, we can assume water is not wet, but when trying to figure out how to build a dam, let's not assume water is not wet when it clearly is.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:


Apparently not, since you got it wrong.

Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:


When did I bring up the "planck scale"? Just because causation can be continuous or discrete, doesn't mean it has anything to do with the planck scale.

Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:
One just has to read your question to fast and kenneth to laugh of the silliness of your thinking on freedom...


And how so? You apparently don't understand the difference between counterfactuals of freedom which is a conditional freedom, and the "garden forking paths" model of conditionless alternative possibilities.
They are not the same. Counterfactuals (subjunctive conditionals) about what an agent would have done if he had chosen a different action than the one he did is true in some possible world but false in this world. Propositions about what an agent could do in this world are true in this world, while false in others. If determinism is true, then propositions about what an agent could do in this world are all false, since there is only one action available from which to choose given background conditions and the laws of nature. So how one goes about reconciling free will and determinism will depend on this very distinction.

Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:


That depends on one's view of the Big Bang: you know this. To say that it even had a "beginning" is a misnomer, since space-time simply has no application "before" the big bang. And if one is a theist, the Big Bang is an event that had a cause, namely, god. Either way, the Big Bang doesn't "come from nothingness." I don't even see how that is even possible since it is absurd.

Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:


No one understands what you said. That's your own fault. Get with the program.

Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:
What does dialectical mean ???Again you amaze me with the sheer charge of stupidity in your tone !!! Can you get a better more elegant description of how things to become are not to be transcendent to each other ? and I mean transcendent not transcendental ...duh !Get lost cartoonish fool !


You are wrong. The philosophical definition of "dialectical" does not mean "transcendent." Here is a web-dictionary definition of the proper noun "dialectic" for you:

1. The art or practice of arriving at the truth by the exchange of logical arguments.
2. a. The process especially associated with Hegel of arriving at the truth by stating a thesis, developing a contradictory antithesis, and combining and resolving them into a coherent synthesis.
b. Hegel's critical method for the investigation of this process.


Fil. Albuquerque;161193 wrote:


Excessive name-calling instead of answering my questions is a direct indication you don't have anything to contribute to this thread, so I reported your repeated verbal abuse to the moderators.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:20 am
@fast,
fast;161258 wrote:
But, no one should seriously think Determinism [is] false.


Why? First, define "determinism" and "determined". Then, enumerate the evidence in favor of it. Please.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:33 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;161261 wrote:
Apparently not, since you got it wrong.



When did I say this?



And how so? You apparently don't understand the difference between counterfactuals of freedom which is a conditional freedom, and the "garden forking paths" model of conditionless alternative possibilities.
They are not the same, and so how one goes about reconciling free will and determinism will depend on this distinction.



That depends on one's view of the Big Bang: you know this. To say that it even had a "beginning" is a misnomer, since space-time simply has no application "before" the big bang. And if one is a theist, the Big Bang is an event that had a cause, namely, god. Either way, the Big Bang doesn't "come from nothingness." I don't even see how that is even possible since it is absurd.



No one understands what you said. That's your own fault. Get with the program.



You are wrong. The philosophical definition of "dialectical" does not mean "transcendent." Here is a web-dictionary definition of the proper noun "dialectic" for you:

1. The art or practice of arriving at the truth by the exchange of logical arguments.
2. a. The process especially associated with Hegel of arriving at the truth by stating a thesis, developing a contradictory antithesis, and combining and resolving them into a coherent synthesis.
b. Hegel's critical method for the investigation of this process.



Excessive name-calling instead of answering my questions is a direct indication you don't have anything to contribute to this thread, so I reported your repeated verbal abuse to the moderators.



Learn to read !!!

1 - For the purpose, the problem with Big Bang is the expansion not the beginning itself... The expansion of Space is the growing in nothingness unless the future already exists...got it ? probably not !

2- When did I said that Dialectics is Transcendence ???
instead is about preventing, explaining how such cannot be
..."the fruit still contains the flower and the flower already contains the fruit"...remember ?

Your problem are not my arguments but your poor understanding...report me to whoever you want you loony idiot, this is the last time I am speaking with you !
 
Extrain
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:41 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;161264 wrote:
Learn to read !!!

1 - For the purpose, the problem with Big Bang is the expansion not the beginning itself... The expansion of Space is the growing in nothingness unless the future already exists...got it ? probably not !


That's right. So to say the big bang came from nothingness is a misnomer, and so it is not correct to say this about the Origin of the universe. And?

Fil. Albuquerque;161264 wrote:
2- When did I said that Dialectics is Transcendence ???instead is about preventing, explaining how such cannot be..."the fruit still contains the flower and the flower already contains the fruit"...remember ?


You said dialectical means "transcendent." It does not mean that.

Besides, what you said sounds like Aristotle to me. The acorn is the material and formal cause of the full-grown tree since it contains all the necessary conditions for the tree to become what it is.

Fil. Albuquerque;161264 wrote:
Your problem are not my arguments but your poor understanding...report me to whoever you want you loony idiot, this is the last time I am speaking with you !


Fine with me. But I will still take the liberty to correct your errors so long as you continute to post them.

---------- Post added 05-07-2010 at 10:48 AM ----------

Night Ripper;161236 wrote:
It doesn't matter what prefix you add to the word "event". Either every macro-event has a cause and my previous criticism stands or there are some macro-events that happen but aren't caused.

I also think it's a mistake to divide the universe into micro and macro like that as if there were a real demarcation in the world and not something we've created.


I sympathize. But is that not exactly the problem? We have two competing physical theories of the macro and the micro, neither of which can be reconciled with the other. Either there is a distinction between macro and micro scales and both theories are true, or, there is not a distinction, and both theories are false, or one of them is true and the other false. So how doe we go about deciding this? As far as we know, there are macro-emergent properties from micro-physical events which make the world deterministic on this non-quantum scale. Until we know more about that distinction, trying to decide one way or another scientifically seems to be superfluous. There simply is not enough evidence for or against the philosophical thesis of determinism.

I am rather attracted to the more recent position held by philosophers which maintains every effect has a cause, but that effects follow from their causes with a high degree of probability, not necessity. But I am not committed to holding that.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:53 am
@Night Ripper,
[QUOTE=Night Ripper;161262]Why? First, define "determinism" and "determined". Then, enumerate the evidence in favor of it. Please.[/QUOTE]

Determinism is the doctrine that all macro-events have strict antecedent causes.

The basis for thinking that is logical-- inductive reasoning even. We extrapolate from the observed to the unobserved. Every event that I (or anyone else) has ever observed had a cause. No event that I (or anyone else) has ever observed didn't have a cause. Therefore, every event has a cause. Might I be wrong? Yes. Likely? Not really. Why? Because my argument isn't weak. It's strong.

I don't want to get into a discussion about infinite regression. Getting bogged down into what amounts to no more than a puzzle game isn't going to help explain the connection (if any) between fatalism and determinism.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:57 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;161248 wrote:
What defines a micro-event from a macro-event? Hint: it's a convention, nothing more. Quantum weirdness has no inherent scale limitations. We made entire molecules interfere with themselves. I haven't been following things recently but we are ramping up for an experiment with an entire organism at some point.


Out of curiosity, do remember by chance where you came across this molecular interference produced in experiments?
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 10:58 am
@Extrain,
[QUOTE=Extrain;161266]I am rather attracted to the more recent position held by philosophers which maintains every effect has a cause, but that effects follow from their causes with a high degree of probability, not necessity. But I am not committed to holding that.[/QUOTE]

I want to make sure I understand what you think determinism is. Suppose all events (macro and micro) are determined. Given that, it would still be the case that not all events are necessary events. Do you agree with me? I think you should.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 11:09 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;161203 wrote:
But isn't inductive evidence for what people do (together with further assumptions, for example , the Principle of Induction) evidence for what people can do? At least scientists and common-folk like you and me, think so. If I do play chess, isn't that evidence that I can play chess? And pretty good evidence?


None whatsoever. Alleged "evidence" about what a person can do is merely possible evidence, not actual evidence. "It is possible that John can play chess since there is a chess board before him" can certainly be true, but there is obviously no actual evidence for that claim until he does play chess. "John actually playing chess" is just as much evidence for the claim that "John can play chess" as it is for the claim that "John must play chess." So this argument of yours is a bit of a red-herring.

---------- Post added 05-07-2010 at 11:18 AM ----------

fast;161271 wrote:


I want to make sure I understand what you think determinism is. Suppose all events (macro and micro) are determined. Given that, it would still be the case that not all events are necessary events. Do you agree with me? I think you should.


I am not sure what I believe, so please keep that in mind.

"Every event is necessary" is fatalism, and is false--so I don't agree with your belief that this is what determinism actually says.

"Facts of the past together in conjunction with the laws of nature entail every truth about the future" is determinism, so given the actual facts of the past together with the fixed laws of nature, at any given moment in time, there is one and only one possible future. This "hard-determinism" doesn't entail that every event is necessary, only that, given every event that is a cause, the effect follows necessarily, or "with necessity." This is a conditional necessity, not an absolute necessity like fatalism holds.

The problem for compatibilists consists in reconciling these incompatible statements:

(1) Some person (as an agent), at some time, could have acted otherwise than she did.
(2) Human actions are events.
(3) Every event has a cause.
(4) If every event has a cause, then that event is causally determined.
(5) If an event is an act that is causally determined, then the agent of the act could not have acted otherwise than he did.

I think (1) is true, I am just not sure how to reconcile it with 2-5. Which one's are false? This is why I asked you for your own view about the matter. 1-5 is the puzzle needing to be addressed for compatibilism.

Some "determinists" also might hold either one or the other:

Every cause is sufficient for its effect--causal necessity.
Some causes are not sufficient for their effects--probabilistic causal sufficiency.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 11:51 am
@Extrain,
[QUOTE=Extrain;161274]I am not sure what I believe, so please keep that in mind.[/QUOTE]Hmmm. Let me reword it then. Never mind what you think is actually the case about the state of our world. Instead, tell me what you think the implications of determinism are so I can tell exactly what you think determinism is.

You done that when you said, "'Facts of the past together in conjunction with the laws of nature entail every truth about the future' is determinism." I don't believe determinism says that at all, so our views of determinism are different.

I think determinism tells us about the past. I don't think determinism tells us about the future. It can indirectly tell us something about the future, but only in a looking back sort of way. For example, if event Y happens at some future time T+26, then any cause will be antecedent (prior to) T+26.

In analogy, determinism is like a child in the backseat of car reading the signs that have already passed. The child cannot read the signs that have yet to come, but the driver knows that the child in the car ahead has already read the signs that his child hasn't, but in both instances, the child is always reading the signs that have already passed. It's a looking back principle that says all events are caused. It says nothing about the future events to come.

You, on the other hand, think that determinism tells us something about the future. I know you think this because you said the underlined: "Facts of the past together in conjunction with the laws of nature entail every truth about the future."

Determinism does not speak to, let alone guarantee, what is to come at all. We may take what we know of determinism and couple it with something else and draw conclusions about future events, but determinism itself is strictly a looking back principle that in essence is limited only to the antecedent causes of events, be those of past, present, or future events.

This grand misunderstanding of determinism is the source of much confusion. Remember, determinism tells us that past events are caused. We are the ones taking that and drawing the conclusion that current events will produce an effect. It will, but what kind of an effect is what's important. Just because event Y did happen the way it did, that's not to say it had to of happened the way it did, and because it's not the case that every event that does happen had to happen the way it did, we have no good reason to think that all future events must happen the way they will; thus, and again, I do not share your view of determinism.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 11:59 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;161266 wrote:
That's right. So to say the big bang came from nothingness is a misnomer, and so it is not correct to say this about the Origin of the universe. And?


...and the problem is expansion towards what, nothingness ?
How can Space expand into nothingness ???

Extrain;161266 wrote:
You said dialectical means "transcendent." It does not mean that.


What I actually said:

[QUOTE=Fil. Albuquerque;161193]...Can you get a better more elegant description of how things to become are not to be transcendent to each other ? and I mean transcendent not transcendental ...duh ! [/QUOTE]

Extrain;161266 wrote:
Besides, what you said sounds like Aristotle to me. The acorn is the material and formal cause of the full-grown tree since it contains all the necessary conditions for the tree to become what it is.


...So what it sounds Hegel to...what is the point ???

Extrain;161266 wrote:
Fine with me. But I will still take the liberty to correct your errors so long as you continute to post them.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Fri 7 May, 2010 12:01 pm
@fast,
fast;161283 wrote:
I think determinism tells us about the past. I don't think determinism tells us about the future. It can indirectly tell us something about the future, but only in a looking back sort of way. For example, if event Y happens at some future time T+26, then any cause will be antecedent (prior to) T+26.
But how can you be an determinist about the past, and not about the future? That's not the philosophically accepted definition of determinism at all. You are proposing indeterminism about the future, which is not determinism.

[QUOTE=fast;161283] In analogy, determinism is like a child in the backseat of car reading the signs that have already passed. The child cannot read the signs that have yet to come, but the driver knows that the child in the car ahead has already read the signs that his child hasn't, but in both instances, the child is always reading the signs that have already passed. It's a looking back principle that says all events are caused. It says nothing about the future events.[/QUOTE]But this isn't determinism. Determnism says all events are caused: past, present, and future. Libertarianism about human freedom deny this, fast, just as you do. So you are a libertarian. Please see the Entry in SEP on this:

Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

You are going against philosophical jargon, so whatever you are saying just confuses matters. I am not saying your view is nonsensical; it is just inconsistent.

[QUOTE=fast;161283] You, on the other hand, think that determinism tells us something about the future. I know you think this because you said the underlined: "Facts of the past together in conjunction with the laws of nature entail every truth about the future." [/QUOTE]Yes, all causes are sufficient for their effects both past and future. If you say causal sufficiency does not hold for the future, but say that it holds for the past, you are being inconsistent.

[QUOTE=fast;161283] Determinism does not speak to, let alone guarantee, what is to come at all. We may take what we know of determinism and couple it with something else and draw conclusions about future events, but determinism itself is strictly a looking back principle that in essence is limited only to the antecedent causes of events, be those of past, present, or future events.[/QUOTE]
fast;161283 wrote:


This grand misunderstanding of determinism is the source of much confusion. Remember, determinism tells us that past events are caused. We are the ones taking that and drawing the conclusion that current events will produce an effect. It will, but what kind of an effect is what's important. Just because event Y did happen the way it did, that's not to say it had to of happened the way it did, and because it's not the case that every event that does happen had to happen the way it did, we have no good reason to think that all future events must happen the way they will; thus, and again, I do not share your view of determinism.


It doesn't bother me that you believe this. The point is that this not the commonly accepted philosophical understanding of determinism. If the past is caused, then so is the future. It doesn't make sense to say the future is uncaused but not the past.

You have what's called a "growing block theory" about all future events. I happen to sympathize with that view. But this view still holds that all future events are determined by the past: these future events just haven't happened yet, so they don't exist. But that doesn't entail future events are uncaused. They are caused when a future event becomes present.
 
 

 
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