The Real is Rational

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Extrain
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 11:24 pm
@north,
north;150727 wrote:
you can't


But you said (direct quote), "the real is rational to an object"

I am real. So I am rational to an object.

So now the real can't be rational to an object?

So you change your mind now?

north;150727 wrote:
I perfer sound thinking


What is "sound thinking," if it is not logical thinking? Can you define "sound thinking" for me?

north;150727 wrote:
why would you need to rationalize the obvious ?


No one said anything about "rationalizing the obvious."

I want to know how "the real can rational an object."

You said "the real is rational to an object." It would be nice if you could tell me what you meant by this.

north;150727 wrote:
without objects , from the micro to the macro , you wouldn't be , you wouldn't exist


Suppose God magically erases my TV out of existence. It's certainly possible, if God exists. Does that mean, then, that I cease to exist? Is that what you're saying?

---------- Post added 04-11-2010 at 11:31 PM ----------

Reconstructo;150728 wrote:
Yes, Hegel is just poetry. Better to study engineering, and neither Hegel nor whatever antiphilosophy is hip at the moment...if one wants direct worldly significance. Compared to physical science, philosophy is a pillow (soft). Doesn't matter that science is grounded on an implicit metaphysics. They got it covered?

This is an attack on Psychiatry. I just offer it to show the vulnerability of "soft science." Philosophy is literature for repressed mathematicians? Smile


Hegel is poetry?

If Hegel is poetry, why should everyone study engineering?

What is "antiphilosophy"?

How is philosophy "like a pillow"? What does that mean for philosophy to be "soft"?

Why is philosophy "literature for repressed mathematicians"?

What does psychiatry have to do with philosophy?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 11:56 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;150731 wrote:

Hegel is poetry?

If Hegel is poetry, why should everyone study engineering?

What is "antiphilosophy"?

How is philosophy "like a pillow"? What does that mean for philosophy to be "soft"?

Why is philosophy "literature for repressed mathematicians"?

What does psychiatry have to do with philosophy?


Yes, H is poetry. As is much of philosophy. But that statement is itself poetry, in that it is metaphorical, as is much philosophy. Check out the roots of the word poetry.

Antiphilosophy? To oversimplify: a contempt for metaphysics. (Which includes ontology.) We want a miracle! Give us cold fusion. Give us something we can use! Not all this babble! Think positivism and its offspring.

The literature thing is sincere. The repressed mathematician is a joke. Phil is fiction dressed as nonfiction? Sorta-kinda. What is truth? Well, that's no easy question. Anyone can talk sh*t, so philosophy is soft. It's tangled up in aesthetics, opinion, morality, politics. Just like psychiatry. Not so long ago, homosexuality was a disease. Mores changed and "science" followed suit. The humanities, god love them, are soft. What does it mean to have a degree in the humanities? That the teacher liked your opinions? That you remembered the plots of certain books? And this is coming from someone who spent many years on literature.

Physics is different. You can build a bomb or land on the moon, and this more than just opinion. Physics wins wars. Of course so does rhetoric, but rhetoric alone won't cut it. Not anymore.

Psychiatry is in many ways soft. It's diseases are poems. And some say its poems are diseases. It's the same with foolosophy. Some view metaphysics as trash. How do you convince them otherwise, assuming you are foolish enough to bother? Rhetoric. Hell, you might say that the cutting edge of mathematics is soft, as folks can disagree on new math concepts. For instance, Cantor was driven mad partially by Kronecker. There are debates about the nature of number. Until math becomes a computer or a space shuttle, the layman can only shrug. Negative numbers were long viewed with suspicion. Nowadays, huge prime numbers are used to encrypt valuable information. Imaginary numbers are old old news. What is truth in a social sense? Consensus. Say the wrong thing in front of the wrong people and you are a fool, a sinner, or a madman. This is the power/truth dynamic. When I made that engineer quip, I forgot to mention another path of worldly significant more akin to philosophy, and that is politics. If you're rhetoric is slick, you can outdo the engineer perhaps, for politicians decide whether tax money is spent on fusion bombs or solar panels, etc.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 12:01 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
It's a free country, man. I'm quite aware that Hegel is difficult, often attacked, etc. But I stand by his system as deeper than Kant's.


In what respect is "Hegel's system deeper than Kant's"?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
But let me say that absolute idealism is not really idealism anymore.


Wait. So the word "idealism" in the term "Absolute Idealism" has changed its meaning?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
It's not like Berkeley. It's name is related to its parentage.


How is Hegel's Absolute Idealism not like Berkeley's Metaphysical Idealism?

Can you tell me the difference between the two?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
The title of this thread is why Hegel isn't really an idealist.


No. The title of this thread is actually "The Real is the Rational." The title is not, "Why Hegel isn't really an idealist." Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. If the Absolute is Mind and evolves in time, and just IS everything real, can you tell me how this Absolute Idealism does not resemble Berkeleyian Metaphysical Idealism?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
The real is the rational and the rational is the real. The dichotomy is bogus because it's illogical.


Wait. Now it's "illogical"? Does that mean it's a contradiction because the real is not the rational, and the rational is not the real? But the real is the rational, and the rational is the real. Why is it now illogical?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Of course it's pragmatically useful.

Wait. So "the rational is the real" is illogical, but now you say it is "pragmatically useful"? If it is illogical, why would anyone want to make use of it?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
And Hegel is indeed from a practical view just brilliant poetry.


So now Hegel was a poet? This is news to me. I thought he was philosopher who proposed some pretty substantive philosophical views about the nature of the world, just like all philosophers do.

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Do you like Rorty? Rorty is a bridge from Hegel to the useful folks.


I do not like Rorty, no.

How is Rorty "a bridge from Hegel to the useful folks"? Who are these "useful folks" you speak of? Can you tell me?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
I think much of analytic philosophy is a cowardly retreat from everything that makes philosophy worth the trouble.


Wait. So now philosophy cowardly retreats from what makes philosophy worth doing? How? Why is philosophy worth doing? And how does philosophy retreat from philosophy?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Of course Rorty was a member of the tribe, but he crossed the aisle and united the clans.


Rorty was a member of a tribe? Which tribe? Which aisle did Rorty cross? And which clans did Rorty unite?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Here's the thing. Clear language is great. But language is often metaphorical. You can't calculate philosophy as if metaphor is clear as math is clear. And the denial of metaphoricity is highly questionable in my book.


How does philosophy deny "metphoricity"? What is "metaphoricity"? Does science speak in metaphors? Should science speak in metaphors?

Are you proposing that philosophy should speak in metaphors, like you are so fond of doing? Why should philosophy be like poetry? Why should philosophy be like literature?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Language requires interpretation. It's not a perfect medium.


If language requires interpretation, then whose interpretation and which one do you suggest everyone start using? What are interpretations? What are their purpose?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Yes, the continental boys are often full of S, and many of them bore me. But the best part of the cont. tradition engages the real difficulty of communication. I don't like reductive theories of meaning, which sometimes flatter the reducer.


What is the "real difficulty of communication" to which you are referring here? Is there a real difficulty? Which difficulties are you talking about?

And what is so "effective" about continental philosophy's ability to embrace this difficulty? Why is continental so special in this regard? Is it because it speaks in metaphors?

And what is a "reductive theory of meaning"? Can you tell me?
To which philosopher's reductive theory of meaning are you referring?
Are there any reductive theories of meaning?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
The self-consciousness of the absolute is a brilliant notion.


In what respect was the "self consciousness of the absolute" such a "brilliant notion"?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
I dug up a 3rd party interpretation. I have littered the metaphysics section with my own interpretation.


Whose "third-party" interpretation did you dig up? Interpretation of what? And what is your intepretation? Do you have any valuable insights to offer any of us?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
Let me stress that as much as I love Hegel, the idea is more important than the man.


Why are Hegel's Ideas more important than Hegel? In what respect?

I thought you said Hegel's "the real is the rational, the rational is the real" is illogical. So why do you insist on being illogical?

What are Hegel's Ideas, and what makes them so important for your own views? Why are they so valuable and noble?

Reconstructo;150724 wrote:
So if my interpretation is wrong (a matter of debate), it's still at the moment what I would prefer to the official Hegel-line.


What interpretation are you talking about? What is Hegel's "official line"?

I thought you said Hegel official line was illogical!

---------- Post added 04-12-2010 at 12:24 AM ----------

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Yes, H is poetry. As is much of philosophy. But that statement is itself poetry, in that it is metaphorical, as is much philosophy. Check out the roots of the word poetry.


Why do you think philosophy is poetry? This is new to me. So I enrolled as a graduate student in poetry without knowing it? Wow! I must be dense!

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Antiphilosophy? To oversimplify: a contempt for metaphysics. (Which includes ontology.)


Wait. So now all philosophy is metaphysics, because antiphilosophy is a contempt for metaphysics? But you said philosophy was poetry. So now antiphilosophy is a contempt for poetry?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
We want a miracle! Give us cold fusion. Give us something we can use! Not all this babble! Think positivism and its offspring.


You lost me. not sure what positivism has to do with cold fusion...

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
The literature thing is sincere.


Wow. So I am a literary theorist and not a philosopher? I must be dense.

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Phil is fiction dressed as nonfiction?


So when Descartes said "I think, therefore I am" he was talking about fiction? So Descartes really didn't mean what he said? And so Descartes really didn't think he existed? Was Descartes just joking? Was Descartes just discussing poetry?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Sorta-kinda.


Wait. So now philosophy is only "kinda" fictional? So philosophy both is, and isn't fictional?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
What is truth? Well, that's no easy question. Anyone can talk sh*t, so philosophy is soft.


??? So there is no such thing as truth? So you don't really exist?

So philosophy talks sh*t and philosophy is fiction. So what are you doing on a philosophy forum then if you think philosophy is sh*t?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
It's tangled up in aesthetics, opinion, morality, politics. Just like psychiatry.


Every discipline is caught up in these things. You don't think when scientists created the atomic bomb, that didn't have political/moral/aesthetic implications?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Not so long ago, homosexuality was a disease. Mores changed and "science" followed suit.


Wait. So now science changes with the times too? Is it fictional like philosophy is fictional? And science changes with a change in morality?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
The humanities, god love them, are soft.


What do you mean by "soft"??

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
What does it mean to have a degree in the humanities? That the teacher liked your opinions? That you remembered the plots of certain books? And this is coming from someone who spent many years on literature.


So humanities is just "all about your opinion"?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Physics is different. You can build a bomb or land on the moon, and this more than just opinion. Physics wins wars. Of course so does rhetoric, but rhetoric alone won't cut it. Not anymore.


Physics is not about your opinion? then how do you explain the fact that every scientfic theory so far has been abandoned and shown to be false. I could give you an extensive list of older scientific theories scientists think are false. No scientist thinks his theories are literally true.

But this is beside the point. What does this have to do with philosophy?

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Psychiatry is in many ways soft.


I still don't know what this is supposed to mean.

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
It's diseases are poems. And some say its poems are diseases.


sheesh....so now psychiatry is full of disease, and these diseases are poems? What on earth do you mean???

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
It's the same with foolosophy. Some view metaphysics as trash. How do you convince them otherwise, assuming you are foolish enough to bother? Rhetoric.


If you hate philosophy so much, then why are you here???

I've never heard of "foolosophy"--sound just like your own invention. You like to invent things.

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
Hell, you might say that the cutting edge of mathematics is soft, as folks can disagree on new math concepts.


What the hell is this supposed to mean???

Reconstructo;150737 wrote:
For instance, Cantor was driven mad partially by Kronecker. There are debates about the nature of number. Until math becomes a computer or a space shuttle, the layman can only shrug. Negative numbers were long viewed with suspicion. Nowadays, huge prime numbers are used to encrypt valuable information. Imaginary numbers are old old news. What is truth in a social sense? Consensus. Say the wrong thing in front of the wrong people and you are a fool, a sinner, or a madman. This is the power/truth dynamic. When I made that engineer quip, I forgot to mention another path of worldly significant more akin to philosophy, and that is politics. If you're rhetoric is slick, you can outdo the engineer perhaps, for politicians decide whether tax money is spent on fusion bombs or solar panels, etc.


oh my god!!

i've never heard so much "foolosophy" nonsense in my life!

You say Philosophy is poetry--and you speak in metaphor.
You say Philosophy is fiction--and you invent anything you want.
You say philosophy is rhetoric--and you speak in rhetoric
You say philosophy is sh*t--and you speak in word salads.

You have a bad case of self-projection onto others here. The philosophy you continue to criticize is YOUR VERY OWN.

---------- Post added 04-12-2010 at 12:29 AM ----------

How have the rest of you guys put up with this nonsense for so long??
This individual is one apple who fell WAY off the tree!!

I'm outta here!!!

Laughing
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:32 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;150648 wrote:
turing: (next time try not to steal a name you are unworthy of)
u = pretentious little d-bag. game over. welcome to ignore.

What did i do? I am probable the nicest person here, and my intention is only to help you make sense of your own ideas.


"turing equivalent" is not a name of a person. It is a computer science concept.


Turing completeness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:

Turing equivalence --- Two computers P and Q are called Turing equivalent if P can simulate Q and Q can simulate P.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 04:41 am
@Extrain,
Extrain;150681 wrote:
So 2+2=4 is true now, but becomes false when we die because numbers cease to exist?



The concept denoted by "Red" is a "judgement"? That's not right. Concepts are not judgments; rather, we make judgments using concepts.

"Knowledge" is a judgment? John has knowledge that Obama is the President. So John's knowledge is a "judgment"? That's not right.

John can still have knowledge that X, but not pass the judgement that X.
Likewise, John can make the judgment that X, without knowing that X.



true.

2+2=4 is not true or false when we die...It simply has no meaning.

Red is a judgement, and if we pick up the judgements of others culturally, they are still judgements.. And we make deductions, judgements based upon the accepted judgements of others....
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 09:16 am
@Fido,
Fido;150778 wrote:
2+2=4 is not true or false when we die..


This kind of reasoning lead you to think that the whole of mathematics is just a bunch of definitions. you have no problems with this?
 
Extrain
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 09:48 am
@Fido,
Fido;150778 wrote:
2+2=4 is not true or false when we die...It simply has no meaning.


So when you die "2+2=4" no longer has any meaning? Kind of presumptuous, don't you think? Of course it retains its meaning after you die. And it is necessarily true--it will always be true.

Fido;150778 wrote:
Red is a judgement, and if we pick up the judgements of others culturally, they are still judgements.. And we make deductions, judgements based upon the accepted judgements of others....


"Red" is not a judgement. "Red" is a predicate.

"The firetruck is red" is a judgment. You need a subject and a predicate to make a judgment. Judgments express truth-valuable propositions, and these judgments are about states of affairs. First order logic tells you this.

I am not sure what "culturally accepted judgments" have to do with anything here. If you accept the truth of what others say simply because others in your culture said it, then this is the logical fallacy of "appealing to the people." Advertisements on television use this fallacy all the time to get you to buy their products.

---------- Post added 04-12-2010 at 09:50 AM ----------

TuringEquivalent;150835 wrote:
This kind of reasoning lead you to think that the whole of mathematics is just a bunch of definitions. you have no problems with this?


Some have just never thought it through is the problem...
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 11:16 am
@Reconstructo,
Red is most certainly a judgement, that there is such a quality, or that something bears that quality... All of our concepts are also judgements of a simple or complex nature...Red as a word in English has English cultural judgements, and I assure you that culture does play a part in what we think is true, and how we approach reason...What can be said of concepts in particular may be said in general of culture... Culture is knowledge, and our cultures teach us what is true or false, and reflect the acquired learning of a whole people...

And actually math, and all knolwedge is a series of definitions...If you knew the meaning of every word in the dictionary you would know everything...What distinguishes a smart from a dull person is the number of definitions they know...

As far as meaning goes, I would say it is far more presumptuous to think a thing will have meaning to you after you die when the life you have which gives all things meaning has departed from you... We find meaning with our lives, which are all meaning to us, and you must know that all the things one usually finds meaning in will be traded for life, to preserve life, or to buy another minute of it...Whether you admit this or not is immaterial...Just look at what people do...
 
Extrain
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 11:43 am
@Fido,
Fido;150914 wrote:
Red is most certainly a judgement, that there is such a quality, or that something bears that quality...


Those are different judgments then:

(a) Red exists or is a quality.
(b) The firetruck is red

2 different judgments

But "Red" is not judgment. It is a predicate.

Fido;150914 wrote:
All of our concepts are also judgements of a simple or complex nature...


Again, concepts are not judgments. We use concepts to make judgments. We judge using concepts. Concepts are parts of our judgments, and are used to predicate of property of something. Red is a concept, and we use it judge that a firetruck is red.

Fido;150914 wrote:
Red as a word in English has English cultural judgements,


Words are not judgments. We use words to speak or write judgments using concepts denoted by those words, as in the word "red."

Fido;150914 wrote:
and I assure you that culture does play a part in what we think is true, and how we approach reason


I never said it didn't. All I said is that cultures can be wrong. That the earth revolves about the sun is not dependent on culture. If people thought the sun revolved around the earth, they would be wrong. Culture can still pass mistaken judgments. Just as some people used to mistakenly think the earth was flat.

Fido;150914 wrote:
...What can be said of concepts in particular may be said in general of culture...


Cultures have a conceptual repertoire, sure.

Fido;150914 wrote:
Culture is knowledge, and our cultures teach us what is true or false, and reflect the acquired learning of a whole people...


The world and culture both teach us what is true and false. But culture doesn't make things true or false. How the actual world is makes things true or false. So a culture can teach you false things, or the culture can teach you true things. But what the culture says is not always true.

Fido;150914 wrote:
And actually math, and all knolwedge is a series of definitions...If you knew the meaning of every word in the dictionary you would know everything...What distinguishes a smart from a dull person is the number of definitions they know...


Language may make a person more linguistically competent, and assist a person in acquiring a more refined understanding of the world, that's for sure. But knowledge does not merely consist in learning a series of definitions. Knowledge is knowledge about the world outside us. And dictionaries help us articulate that knowledge. But knowledge is not just knowing the definitions of words. We have definitions because the world is the way it is. We don't live in a vacuum. You can learn all the meaningless jargon you want, but still not know anything about the world at all. Likewise, you can know much about the world with having a very limite vocabulary.

"Bachelors are unmarried men" is a definition. But we know that it is true only if bachelors are, in fact, unmarried men. Definitions are useless unless they are true of the thing defined--in this case, we would not know the earth revolved around the sun unless it did, in fact, revolve around the sun.

Fido;150914 wrote:
As far as meaning goes, I would say it is far more presumptuous to think a thing will have meaning to you after you die when the life you have which gives all things meaning has departed from you... We find meaning with our lives, which are all meaning to us, and you must know that all the things one usually finds meaning in will be traded for life, to preserve life, or to buy another minute of it...Whether you admit this or not is immaterial...Just look at what people do...


You are talking about one's purpose in life, and what people find valuable and worthwhile. That's different.
 
jack phil
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 12:50 pm
@Reconstructo,
I think transcendental idealism or whatever is really just realism. Recon said elsewhere that Pierce had said Kant would have been better at proclaiming realism (or something like that). Anyhoo, I was hoping to catch a citation. Smile
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:07 pm
@Reconstructo,
The real isn't rational, only very naive people would think such thing, those who are prone to manipulation by group think, less bright, ignorents ..etc.

Observing most women, they will buy excessive amount of cloth, things they don't really need, things that will pose health issues, such as stiletto shoes, corsette, makeup filled with chemicals ..etc.

Communism has long induced stupid ideals into it's followers, which they now try to revoke in favor of capitalism, which was it's old mortal enemy.
 
jack phil
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:14 pm
@Reconstructo,
Hex Hammer, quite reading New York Times bestsellers and read some real philosophy.

Scratch that: read some rational philosophy.

Wink

To stay on topic, I think NAND and NOR and the constructable equivalence to NEGATION reveals that the change of symbolism from something unitary to something with a certain dynamism is what is essentially presented with the whole REAL=RATIONAL postulate.

That is, whereas the REAL is what we might say is objective or something like that (true independent of opinion), the RATIONAL (that which can be put into a ratio) allows for a multiplicity-- the connection of man with the knowable.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:17 pm
@jack phil,
jack;151016 wrote:
Hex Hammer, quite reading New York Times bestsellers and read some real philosophy.

Scratch that: read some rational philosophy.

Wink

To stay on topic, I think NAND and NOR and the constructable equivalence to NEGATION reveals that the change of symbolism from something unitary to something with a certain dynamism is what is essentially presented with the whole REAL=RATIONAL postulate.

That is, whereas the REAL is what we might say is objective or something like that (true independent of opinion), the RATIONAL (that which can be put into a ratio) allows for a multiplicity-- the connection of man with the knowable.
I take you never had a cutthroat top job, either in buisness or politics? ..then all your naive illusions will fade.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:22 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;151008 wrote:
The real isn't rational, only very naive people would think such thing, those who are prone to manipulation by group think, less bright, ignorents ..etc.

Observing most women, they will buy excessive amount of cloth, things they don't really need, things that will pose health issues, such as stiletto shoes, corsette, makeup filled with chemicals ..etc.

Communism has long induced stupid ideals into it's followers, which they now try to revoke in favor of capitalism, which was it's old mortal enemy.


Come on now, Hex. You are being lazy here. I already said that "rational" in this case is not an adjective of commendation.

The intelligible structure of what we call reality is one and the same with our system of concepts. And the confused duality that philosophy has made of the two is also a part of this system of concepts.

The point here is the dissolution of a dichotomy. Or shall we say the resolution of an old old problem....mind/matter and the problem of universals.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:26 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;151020 wrote:
Come on now, Hex. You are being lazy here. I already said that "rational" in this case is not an adjective of commendation.

The intelligible structure of what we call reality is one and the same with our system of concepts. And the confused duality that philosophy has made of the two is also a part of this system of concepts.

The point here is the dissolution of a dichotomy. Or shall we say the resolution of an old old problem....mind/matter and the problem of universals.
Purely spekulative, delusive philosocally mastrubationally pharses.
It roots in nothing concrete other than old weird books, that fools many philosophers.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:29 pm
@jack phil,
jack;151016 wrote:
Hex Hammer, quite reading New York Times bestsellers and read some real philosophy.

Scratch that: read some rational philosophy.

Wink

To stay on topic, I think NAND and NOR and the constructable equivalence to NEGATION reveals that the change of symbolism from something unitary to something with a certain dynamism is what is essentially presented with the whole REAL=RATIONAL postulate.

That is, whereas the REAL is what we might say is objective or something like that (true independent of opinion), the RATIONAL (that which can be put into a ratio) allows for a multiplicity-- the connection of man with the knowable.


This is an interesting new angle on the matter. It does tie in with Hegel's (and Neitzsche's, who is more like Hegel than he realized) dynamic conception of truth. Hegel loved Heraclitus, and so did Nietzsche. No coincidence.

I see it like this. (To put it in more casual terms.) Whatever a person thinks reality is, is indeed the reality that person lives in. The structure of their mind is the structure of their environment. After all, what is structure? I think we posit this dualism of self and world. Like Kant did. The real world (or noumena) is structured by the categories and transcendental intuitions. (Not that Kant's terms deserve priority...it's the general idea that matters to me.)
Anyway, this dualism of perception and reality is justified practically, but more complicated if considered strictly logically. Hence those Wittgenstein quotes.

I think I found a crux. When we think of the world outside of our concept, it's easy to forget that this "world outside our concept" is actually still the world-as-our-concept, as indeed it is part of our mental model. It's the self-negation of the mental model. Hence the move to abolish noumena as an empty absurdity, or perhaps a piece of obsolete genius.
 
jack phil
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:32 pm
@Reconstructo,
And people get on Recon's case for gobblygook?

I really don't know what we are talking about. I was mostly replying to the OP, but decided to make a jab at your comments. To be clear, what does economics have to do with philosophy? Better yet, what do women and cosmetics have to with... anything?!

IIRC, English is not your first language. Please, take your time.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:39 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;151023 wrote:
Purely spekulative, delusive philosocally mastrubationally pharses.
It roots in nothing concrete other than old weird books, that fools many philosophers.


Still, why do you raise such a stink? It's like your knocking on someone's door, who's watching a basketball game, and only to tell them that you don't like basketball. :Glasses:

As philosophy becomes practical it becomes a science. Perhaps you have heard of physics, biology, psychology. Well, these are offshoots of philosophy. But some of us like the poetic/creative aspect of the most general kind of thought. And I agree w/ Witt that philosophy should concern itself with the structure of thought, the science of science.

Yes, you could be peeling potatoes, or programming tomorrow's favorite search engine, but you are not. You are here with the useless philosophers.

If we are doing it wrong (which I do not believe, of course), perhaps you should show us how it should be done. Let's hear your philosophy, Hex. Quote your favorites. Start a thread in the meta-philosophy section about the purpose of philosophy. You have been repeating yourself a bit with this same criticism. (I'm glad you're on the forum, so don't take any of this as a personal attack...)
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 02:44 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;151031 wrote:
Still, why do you raise such a stink? It's like your knocking on someone's door, who's watching a basketball game, and only to tell them that you don't like basketball. :Glasses:

As philosophy becomes practical it becomes a science. Perhaps you have heard of physics, biology, psychology. Well, these are offshoots of philosophy. But some of us like the poetic/creative aspect of the most general kind of thought. And I agree w/ Witt that philosophy should concern itself with the structure of thought, the science of science.

Yes, you could be peeling potatoes, or programming tomorrow's favorite search engine, but you are not. You are here with the useless philosophers.

If we are doing it wrong (which I do not believe, of course), perhaps you should show us how it should be done. Let's hear your philosophy, Hex. Quote your favorites. Start a thread in the meta-philosophy section about the purpose of philosophy. You have been repeating yourself a bit with this same criticism. (I'm glad you're on the forum, so don't take any of this as a personal attack...)
Yes, I'm kinda rubberstamp crusader, repeating myself, but unfortunaly what I say imo holds true for all aspects and situations of my critisism.

Just because "some" philosophy has yielded good results in the sience end, doesn't mean that "all" philosophy is constructive/useful.

I do belive you have already read my most essential critisism of mastrubational philosophy as I call it, and does not need to elevate my views further.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 03:01 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;151034 wrote:

I do belive you have already read my most essential critisism of mastrubational philosophy as I call it, and does not need to elevate my views further.

True. But what else have you got up your sleeve? I would like to see the rest of your brain. :Glasses:
 
 

 
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