Defense of Freewill Against Determinism

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Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:28 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145816 wrote:
see it goes beyond simply "deciding what the nature of a thing is by observing what it is". We actually do experiments to figure out positively(as in we pinpoint) what aspects of a thing lends itself to being able to do a certain thing. We postulate what it might be and then run countless controlled experiments to figure out if our hypothesis was correct or not.


None of that ever goes beyond observing that something happens or doesn't happen. The fact that "X only happens when Y and Z are present and I tug on my earlobe" doesn't change the fact that you are only observing that X happens, you aren't observing that it has to happen.

If you still think science can show us what has to happen then please explain it because I think you will be breaking serious ground.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:37 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145820 wrote:
None of that ever goes beyond observing that something happens or doesn't happen. The fact that "X only happens when Y and Z are present and I tug on my earlobe" doesn't change the fact that you are only observing that X happens, you aren't observing that it has to happen.

If you still think science can show us what has to happen then please explain it because I think you will be breaking serious ground.

the burden of proof is on you to prove that not having gills has NOTHING to do with my inability to breathe underwater because all evidence suggests that it's more than happenstance but is indeed THE reason
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:44 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145822 wrote:
the burden of proof is on you to prove that not having gills has NOTHING to do with my inability to breathe underwater because all evidence suggests that it's more than happenstance but is indeed THE reason


No, the burden of proof is on the person that makes the claim. You claim that it is physically impossible to breath underwater without gills.

I already agree that we never have and never will observe anything breathe underwater without gills but of course that doesn't prove that it's physically impossible. The fact that X doesn't happen does not mean X can't happen. I hate to sound like a broken record and all.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:49 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145826 wrote:
that doesn't prove that it's physically impossible.
proof? .............
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:51 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145830 wrote:
proof? .............


Show, mean, entail, imply, demonstrate, provide evidence for, doesn't matter what word you want to put there.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:53 pm
@Night Ripper,
GOD in general does not have a free will. As a faithfull Calvinist I was told so.

There was conflict about free will and predestination. Personally I don't believe in free will. Nor predestination. Does that mean i am in the wrong church ?

Humanity defend ! Free will is peanuts... Free Yourself ! Will is Fain.

Pepijn Sweep
lector OX:poke-eye:
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 04:57 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145831 wrote:
Show, mean, entail, imply, demonstrate, provide evidence for, doesn't matter what word you want to put there.

i meant prove your claim about proving things

your theory is self-refuting because no matter what you say I can just say well simply because we haven't observed the opposite of your proof doesn't mean it's physically impossible
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:08 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145838 wrote:
i meant prove your claim about proving things

your theory is self-refuting because no matter what you say I can just say well simply because we haven't observed the opposite of your proof doesn't mean it's physically impossible


You think my position is the opposite of yours. No, I very well admit that some things might be physically impossible.

I'm only claiming that physical impossibility is untestable therefore we could never know if something was physically impossible.

Belief that something is physically impossible is therefore not based on evidence.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:14 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145843 wrote:
Belief that something is physically impossible is therefore not based on evidence.
therefore you have no evidence to make such a claim..since saying it's impossible to make such a claim cannot be backed w/ evidence.
thus the self-refuting nature
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 05:33 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145847 wrote:
therefore you have no evidence to make such a claim..since saying it's impossible to make such a claim cannot be backed w/ evidence.
thus the self-refuting nature


I never said anything was physically impossible. Therefore your argument fails.

Nice try though. You fooled Pepijn Sweep.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 06:09 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145864 wrote:
I never said anything was physically impossible. Therefore your argument fails.

Nice try though. You fooled Pepijn Sweep.
you pretty much said that evidence can't prove something is physically impossible while not realizing you have no evidence for this, and, in fact, you can't use evidence since using evidence(apparently) cannot prove the opposite to be impossible according to your theory

thus the flaw in your logic. Pepijn obviously sees this and agrees
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 06:14 pm
@Emil,
Emil;145804 wrote:
Inconsistent with which law of physiology?


Whatever laws imply that people cannot jump 100 feet into the air, of course.

---------- Post added 03-29-2010 at 08:20 PM ----------

Night Ripper;145831 wrote:
Show, mean, entail, imply, demonstrate, provide evidence for, doesn't matter what word you want to put there.


No one can prove that it is physically impossible for a man to have a baby. Not even if we can show he has none of the physical equipment? What do you think it would take then?

In the grip of a theory.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:00 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145874 wrote:
you pretty much said that evidence can't prove something is physically impossible while not realizing you have no evidence for this, and, in fact, you can't use evidence since using evidence(apparently) cannot prove the opposite to be impossible according to your theory

thus the flaw in your logic. Pepijn obviously sees this and agrees


That's logical impossibility, not physical impossibility. Again, you are wrong.

kennethamy;145876 wrote:
No one can prove that it is physically impossible for a man to have a baby. Not even if we can show he has none of the physical equipment?


Again, what you define as the physical equipment is based on what does happen not what must happen. Why do you insist on arguing in circles? Don't you have anything new to say?

kennethamy;145876 wrote:
In the grip of a theory.


In the grip of ignorance.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:17 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145893 wrote:
That's logical impossibility, not physical impossibility. Again, you are wrong.



Again, what you define as the physical equipment is based on what does happen not what must happen. Why do you insist on arguing in circles? Don't you have anything new to say?



In the grip of ignorance.


What you appear to mean is that it is logically possible for a male to have a baby. And that seems to be why you say that it is only based on what does happen. And that is true. It is logically possible for a man to have a baby even without the physical equipment. But what is not physically possible is for a man to have a baby. And that is not based on what does happen. It is based on the fact that it is physically necessary to have the physical equipment to have a baby. And that is based on the fact that in order for something to occur, the necessary conditions for that occurrence have to occur. And that is a logical fact. If q is a necessary condition for p, then unless q, not- p.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:18 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145893 wrote:
That's logical impossibility, not physical impossibility. Again, you are wrong.
Pardon me if I'm wrong but if you agree with my reasoning for why something is logically self-refuting then how do you propose it NOT be physically self-refuting?

If something is logically impossible it CAN NOT be physically possible.

If something is logically self-refuting it CAN NOT be physically self-affirming.

The opposite does not follow though. Just because something is logically possible doesn't mean it's physically possible.

So in your mind I didn't demonstrate why your theory is physically impossible only logically impossible, that being the case it can not be physically possible.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:35 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145902 wrote:
If something is logically impossible it CAN NOT be physically possible.


Physical possibility or impossibility tells us something about the physical universe. For it to be meaningful to talk about something being physically possible or impossible it must already be logically possible. To say that a four-sided triangle is physically impossible is to say absolutely nothing about the physical universe.
 
OntheWindowStand
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:14 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145902 wrote:
Pardon me if I'm wrong but if you agree with my reasoning for why something is logically self-refuting then how do you propose it NOT be physically self-refuting?

If something is logically impossible it CAN NOT be physically possible.

If something is logically self-refuting it CAN NOT be physically self-affirming.

The opposite does not follow though. Just because something is logically possible doesn't mean it's physically possible.

So in your mind I didn't demonstrate why your theory is physically impossible only logically impossible, that being the case it can not be physically possible.



Science is wrong and effects happen without cause. Circle squares are physically possible. Science is just an illusion it just happens to always be right, it actually isn't. Men can randomly become pregnant.

I AM RIGHT!!! NO ONE CAN MAKE ME THINK OTHERWISE!!!!!!!
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:18 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand;145920 wrote:
Science is wrong and effects happen without cause. Circle squares are physically possible. Science is just an illusion it just happens to always be right, it actually isn't. Men can randomly become pregnant.

I AM RIGHT!!! NO ONE CAN MAKE ME THINK OTHERWISE!!!!!!!


Abuse is no substitute for argument. If you have nothing philosophical to say then say nothing.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:19 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand;145920 wrote:
Circle squares are physically possible.
For a king, all points on the edge of a chess board are equally distant from the centre, so you're correct, square circles are physically possible.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:21 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;145924 wrote:
For a king, all points on the edge of a chess board are equally distant from the centre, so you're correct, square circles are physically possible.


See also: Taxicab geometry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
 

 
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