Defense of Freewill Against Determinism

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ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147329 wrote:
Now that is exactly what scientists say, except that they use the term "cause" rather than "regularity".
Scientists generally do not talk about cause, because there is no satisfactory notion of cause in either philosophy or science. In the physical sciences they talk about symmetries and probabilities.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:01 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147333 wrote:
Scientists generally do not talk about cause, because there is no satisfactory notion of cause in either philosophy or science. In the physical sciences they talk about symmetries and probabilities.


Yes. when they are being persnikity. But you know they mean "cause" and believe "cause" when they are off-guard and think about why night follows day. All that talk you mention is CYA. They think that using the term "cause" commits them to some view they want to deny.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:04 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147336 wrote:
you know they mean "cause" and believe "cause" when they are off-guard and think about why night follows day.
You mean when they're being unscientific. How about answering my two earlier posts, addressed to you, so that your reader has a clearer idea of what you're supporting.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:09 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147340 wrote:
You mean when they're being unscientific. How about answering my two earlier posts, addressed to you, so that your reader has a clearer idea of what you're supporting.


No, that's not what I mean. What is unscientific about causation? I am supporting the view that there is an explanation of the succession of day and night. Is that supposed to be controversial?
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:15 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147343 wrote:
What is unscientific about causation?
The fact that there is no well defined notion of cause, in science. For physicists, cause is meaningless.
kennethamy;147343 wrote:
I am supporting the view that there is an explanation of the succession of day and night.
So, should I take this to mean that you hold that a cause is an argument, in the form of a prediction, with laws of science as premises (in line with your support of the deductive nomological theory of explanation)? If so, the world includes an uncountable infinity of uncaused events, and if determinism is the claim that every event has a cause, then determinism is false.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:19 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147347 wrote:
The fact that there is no well defined notion of cause, in science. For physicists, cause is meaningless.So, should I take this to mean that you hold that a cause is an argument, in the form of a prediction, with laws of science as premises (in line with your support of the deductive nomological theory of explanation)? If so, the world includes an uncountable infinity of uncaused events, and if determinism is the claim that every event has a cause, then determinism is false.



that you hold that a cause is an argument, in the form of a prediction, with laws of science as premises (in line with your support of the deductive nomological theory of explanation)? If so, the world includes an uncountable infinity of uncaused events

How does that conclusion follow from that premise?
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:19 pm
@kennethamy,
free-will is beyond causation and therefore determinism

free-will is the combination of understanding , awareness and the capability to understand things beyond the knowledge and the enviroment in which one is placed

and not all people are capable of doing just that , think outside the box
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:21 pm
@north,
north;147351 wrote:
free-will is beyond causation and therefore determinism



How far beyond, would you say? And how do you know that?
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:22 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147350 wrote:
that you hold that a cause is an argument, in the form of a prediction, with laws of science as premises (in line with your support of the deductive nomological theory of explanation)? If so, the world includes an uncountable infinity of uncaused events

How does that conclusion follow from that premise?
1) there is, at most, a countable infinity of scientific explanations
2) according to our best physical theories, the world is continuous
3) if the world is continuous, there is an uncountable infinity of events
4) therefore the number of events for which there is a scientific explanation is a null set.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:26 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147347 wrote:
The fact that there is no well defined notion of cause, in science. For physicists, cause is meaningless.So, should I take this to mean that you hold that a cause is an argument, in the form of a prediction, with laws of science as premises (in line with your support of the deductive nomological theory of explanation)? If so, the world includes an uncountable infinity of uncaused events, and if determinism is the claim that every event has a cause, then determinism is false.
the reason we can't "truly" use the term cause is because we don't have anyone to confirm that the laws of nature are really there. Nature is not like the game "Guess Who" in terms of we can't "ask" Nature.....is G(gravitational constant) = 6.67428x10^-11 m^3kg^-1s^-2? And then nature is like "oh you got me....you"

We do have very very good reason for thinking they are. There is, however, always that chance that the 1 in a trillion trillion is happening.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:27 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147355 wrote:
1) there is, at most, a countable infinity of scientific explanations
2) according to our best physical theories, the world is continuous
3) if the world is continuous, there is an uncountable infinity of events
4) therefore the number of events for which there is a scientific explanation is a null set.


Does your conclusion mean that there are no (true) scientific explanations. If so, then what would you say about the explanation I have offered for the succession of day and night. That it isn't true? Then is there no explanation of this regularity? Is that plausible? Or do you simply mean that you are not a fan of the covering law theory of explanation? I hope it is the latter.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:31 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;147359 wrote:
Nature is not like the game "Guess Who" in terms of we can't "ask" Nature.....is G(gravitational constant) = 6.67428x10^-11 m^3kg^-1s^-2? And then nature is like "oh you got me....you"

We do have very very good reason for thinking they are. There is, however, always that chance that the 1 in a trillion trillion is happening.
The universal gravitational constant is a value that can only be established empirically, therefore it is impossible that there could be any reason for that value to be what it is. It is a perfect example of the limits of science, mathematical randomness as the basis of the world and why talk of laws of nature is ultimately incoherent.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:32 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147366 wrote:
The universal gravitational constant is a value that can only be established empirically, therefore it is impossible that there could be any reason for that value to be what it is. It is a perfect example of the limits of science, mathematical randomness as the basis of the world and why talk of laws of nature is ultimately incoherent.
well I just used that as an example...if you like insert your favorite "natural constant"....maybe Planck's
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:35 pm
@kennethamy,
Quote:
Originally Posted by north http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
free-will is beyond causation and therefore determinism



kennethamy;147354 wrote:
How far beyond, would you say?


well beyond

history of science and in the present



Quote:
And how do you know that?


the above and personal experience
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:35 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147361 wrote:
Does your conclusion mean that there are no (true) scientific explanations.
In order to ask this question you need to interpret "at most, a countable infinity" as meaning 'zero', which it quite obviously doesn't.
kennethamy;147361 wrote:
If so, then what would you say about the explanation I have offered for the succession of day and night. That it isn't true?
As I've pointed out, this so called explanation is a re-definition. In conjunction with the pointlessness of your preceding question, the above question is double-pointless.

---------- Post added 04-02-2010 at 12:37 PM ----------

Amperage;147369 wrote:
well I just used that as an example...if you like insert your favorite "natural constant"....maybe Planck's
It doesn't matter if it was just an example, because it's a counter example. And all such constants required by the maths are irreducibly empirical, thus they are subject to the same considerations.
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:39 pm
@Night Ripper,
all , are not capable of thinking , understanding outside the box of causation or determinism

hence the progress of understanding thought of.......
 
Amperage
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:40 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147373 wrote:

It doesn't matter if it was just an example, because it's a counter example. And all such constants required by the maths are irreducibly empirical, thus they are subject to the same considerations.
How So? Obviously they are empirical but the point is we have reason to believe these constants actually exist. we can run experiments presupposing those numbers and predict outcomes and results....that's why we actually use these numbers.....they really do seem to be there.

Science and mathematical data only attempt to explain natural phenomena. Natural phenomena can be explained and predicted using this information. Therefore we have reason to believe that natural phenomena is abiding by certain constants.....this is why we actually have taken the time to figure out these constants. Scientists aren't doing this kind of extensive research for no reason.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:42 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;147379 wrote:
How So? Obviously they are empirical but the point is we have reason to believe these constants actually exist. we can run experiments presupposing those numbers and predict outcomes and results....that's why we actually use these numbers.....they really do seem to be there
What do you mean by exist? They're values used in mathematical equations, that's all. And they dont illustrate anything favourable to an ontology of realism about laws, or determinism.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:45 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;147380 wrote:
What do you mean by exist? They're values used in mathematical equations, that's all. And they dont illustrate anything favourable to an ontology of realism about laws, or determinism.


I mean natural phenomena can be explained and predicted using such constants.....This leads people to believe that nature may be holding to these numbers...Obviously it's not like running a program(or maybe it is), but for some reason natural phenomena seems to be conforming to our empirical research as if there actually are laws of nature.


Science and mathematical data only attempt to explain natural phenomena obviously. Natural phenomena can be explained and predicted using this information. Therefore we have reason to believe that natural phenomena is abiding by certain constants.....this is why we actually have taken the time to figure out these constants. Scientists aren't doing this kind of extensive research for no reason.
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:49 pm
@Amperage,
only men and women that can grasp the the deeper meaning and therefore a greater understanding of things have free-will

in any discpline
 
 

 
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