Know Thyself?

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manfred
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:00 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;98665 wrote:
Isn't that last sentence contradictory? If you will never choose to do something, how can your doing it still be possible?


i have to agree, if you understand why you will not do something,that means (x) option is off the table.I'll give you an example:Could you kill an elderly man for no reason what so ever?..of course not,because you KNOW better,right?
So that possibility no longer exist,even if you completely go insane...it's no longer an option.Sorry Arjuna,i didn't mean to ramble.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:02 pm
@richrf,
Manfred,

How do demons metaphorically jump into other people if you commit suicide?

I am truly trying to listen to what you are saying. Forgive me if I don’t always understand.

M: Your wrong about the equality of an individuals problem, because once you remove all the trivial B.S floating around inside the minds of you, me and all (X) billion people, we are left with only one decision, yes or no.

S9: yes or no, what?

M: Funny, I thought I found someone interested in something other than themselves. Was that my ego or yours just now?

S9: I can understand wanting to be the center of attention. There may be more than one reason why people can’t always follow what you are saying to them.

S9
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:04 pm
@manfred,
manfred;98672 wrote:
i have to agree, if you understand why you will not do something,that means (x) option is off the table.I'll give you an example:Could you kill an elderly man for no reason what so ever?..of course not,because you KNOW better,right?
So that possibility no longer exist,even if you completely go insane...it's no longer an option.Sorry Arjuna,i didn't mean to ramble.


Well, that really depends on what you mean by, "possibility". There are lots of meanings of that term. One meaning is, logically possible. And it is logically possible to do anything that is not self-contradictory. And it is certainly logically possible to do what you mention. If you mean, psychologically possible, I believe that people have killed elderly men just for the hell of it. At least, you do not know that they have not, do you?
 
manfred
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:17 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;98674 wrote:
Well, that really depends on what you mean by, "possibility". There are lots of meanings of that term. One meaning is, logically possible. And it is logically possible to do anything that is not self-contradictory. And it is certainly logically possible to do what you mention. If you mean, psychologically possible, I believe that people have killed elderly men just for the hell of it. At least, you do not know that they have not, do you?


People kill other people all the time,but if they knew what YOU knew about life,they couldn't have done it,that's the point im trying to make,it's a very simple concept.What i dont understand is why people(including myself)find it necessary to keep coming up with clever ways of asking "egg or the chicken"

---------- Post added 10-19-2009 at 09:22 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;98673 wrote:
Manfred,

How do demons metaphorically jump into other people if you commit suicide?

I am truly trying to listen to what you are saying. Forgive me if I don't always understand.

M: Your wrong about the equality of an individuals problem, because once you remove all the trivial B.S floating around inside the minds of you, me and all (X) billion people, we are left with only one decision, yes or no.

S9: yes or no, what?

M: Funny, I thought I found someone interested in something other than themselves. Was that my ego or yours just now?

S9: I can understand wanting to be the center of attention. There may be more than one reason why people can't always follow what you are saying to them.

S9


if i killed myself,then my parents would suffer s9,that how they would inherit my demons.My pops knows everything about me,so he would definitely know"why" i killed myself,and i dont think he could handle it.

I dont understand why your projecting your own insecurities on to me,center of attention?..bad form S9.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 08:22 pm
@manfred,
Suicide, by definition, is by choice. If you will never make that choice, then suicide is not possible for you.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 06:04 am
@richrf,
I think most people define suicide as being one thing. It is not.

I believe that suicide rather can be defined by its use. Some people use suicide to end their life when they are very old or when they are very sick.

Some people use suicide as a way to grab power over the people around them and make themselves the center of attention by contemplating it out loud.

Some people use suicide, as a way to punish others for not doing something they think they should do, or for doing something they shouldn't have done.

Some people use suicide to make a political point, like those monks that set themselves on fire and burned to death in front of the world.

There are probably many others.

All suicide does have one common ingredient, IMO, that of feeling powerless.

No, I think another common reason must be, taking everything entirely to seriously.

If you realized Thyself to be seperate from this dream world, then you could gain some distance from this suffering, much like watching a movie.

I think that it shows a lack of perspective to have nightmares because of a movie.

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 10:20 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;98722 wrote:

If you realized Thyself to be seperate from this dream world, then you could gain some distance from this suffering, much like watching a movie.

I think that it shows a lack of perspective to have nightmares because of a movie.
S9


Given the topic (suicide) your comments are utterly lacking in sensitivity.

These statements typify my arguments against embracing wholesale a mystical lifestyle: A distancing of oneself from objectivity, the casting off of responsibility for ones actions in society, and in spite of protestations to the contrary, a level of self-absorption that borders on narcissism.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 10:24 am
@manfred,
manfred;98676 wrote:
People kill other people all the time,but if they knew what YOU knew about life,they couldn't have done it,that's the point im trying to make,it's a very simple concept.What i dont understand is why people(including myself)find it necessary to keep coming up with clever ways of asking "egg or the chicken"

---------- Post added 10-19-2009 at 09:22 PM ----------
.


You mean that if they were the kind of people who did not kill old men they would not do so? I suppose I agree with that. But that is not particularly informative. For if they killed old men, they would not be the sort of people who did not kill old men.
 
manfred
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 10:29 am
@kennethamy,
You win,see how easy that was.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:20 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

TT: Given the topic (suicide) your comments are utterly lacking in sensitivity.

S9: You have no idea how sensitive I am to this subject. Rational thinking does not show a lack of sensitivity. It is because of my sensitivity to this very subject, that I had to find some answers to all of the worlds suffering. A very close member of my family took her life.

Would you believe that I am actually an empath? No, I didn’t think you would. Things are just not so simple to categorize, as you seem to think they are.


TT: These statements typify my arguments against embracing wholesale a mystical lifestyle.

S9: So quick to judge without all of the facts.

TT: A distancing of oneself from objectivity, the casting off of responsibility for ones actions in society, and in spite of protestations to the contrary.

S9: I worked in psychology and medicine most of my working life, trying to relieve suffering.

TT: A level of self-absorption that borders on narcissism.

S9: Anyone who really knows me, knows that I often put my own needs second to theirs.

You thought that falling into and behind Manfred’s lead was the best thing for him. It was not.

S9
 
manfred
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:10 pm
@Subjectivity9,
You thought that falling into and behind Manfred's lead was the best thing for him. It was not.

:whistling: i see your true colors,shining through.... true colors,and that's why i love you....

i lead nobody S9,but it's funny how some cant seem to stop following me.

....and that's why i love you... you know,for some reason i just cant get that song out of my head.Let me ask you a question S9,what would the world be like without a**holes such as myself?You think i get a kick out of this,really,it that what you think?Do you really believe playing people's emotions(little ego)against each other is the best solution here?...and that's why i love you...Think what you will of me S9,but you couldn't possible comprehend the level of empathy i have for my fellow man...maybe you should smile more,it helps....and that's why i love you..true colors
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:16 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;98828 wrote:
TT Man,

TT: Given the topic (suicide) your comments are utterly lacking in sensitivity.

S9: You have no idea how sensitive I am to this subject. Rational thinking does not show a lack of sensitivity. It is because of my sensitivity to this very subject, that I had to find some answers to all of the worlds suffering. A very close member of my family took her life.

Would you believe that I am actually an empath? No, I didn't think you would. Things are just not so simple to categorize, as you seem to think they are.


I am sorry about your loss.

Regardless. Why should I believe you are an empath? You know my feelings on paranormal beliefs. You may believe you are an Empath, however, that does not make it true. Perhaps you mean you have empathy toward others. I have that too, but I do not call myself an Empath, as that sounds a bit science-fictiony.

Subjectivity9;98828 wrote:
TT: These statements typify my arguments against embracing wholesale a mystical lifestyle.

S9: So quick to judge without all of the facts.


Which, interestingly enough, is another problem I have with paranormal belief systems. A lack of facts, by which I mean evidence that one can use to make a rational or critical assessment. In the absence of evidence, I personally have to make at least a temporary judgement, or presumption, that the claim is false, which is not to say that the claim does not merit further study. Unlike the legal system, I have no obligation to consider any sort of claim as innocent until proven guilty, or true until proven false, as the case may be.

Subjectivity9;98828 wrote:
TT: A distancing of oneself from objectivity, the casting off of responsibility for ones actions in society, and in spite of protestations to the contrary.

S9: I worked in psychology and medicine most of my working life, trying to relieve suffering.

TT: A level of self-absorption that borders on narcissism.


Tell me how I am supposed to interpret this: "If you realized Thyself to be seperate from this dream world, then you could gain some distance from this suffering, much like watching a movie."

Subjectivity9;98828 wrote:
S9: Anyone who really knows me, knows that I often put my own needs second to theirs.

Why?

Subjectivity9;98828 wrote:
You thought that falling into and behind Manfred's lead was the best thing for him. It was not.


I don't know where this statement came from, or what you mean by it.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:05 am
@richrf,
TT Man,

I believe that our conversation has degenerated into name-calling. I won't further degenerate into placing blame for this.

I believe that the only way to avoid this problem is to stick very closely to discussing ideas, and not to start analyzing the person who holds these ideas.

Respectfully,
S9
 
manfred
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 05:46 am
@Subjectivity9,
...and that's why i love you....
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 11:15 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;98937 wrote:
TT Man,

I believe that our conversation has degenerated into name-calling. I won't further degenerate into placing blame for this.

I believe that the only way to avoid this problem is to stick very closely to discussing ideas, and not to start analyzing the person who holds these ideas.

Respectfully,
S9


Who are you calling a degenerate?
(That was an attempt at humor.)

At some point, I think an analysis of the believer is key to understanding the belief. This is the anthropologist coming out in me.

Understanding why a person believes this, that, or the other thing, to me, is as important as understanding what a person believes.

I carry this over to myself as well. My goal is to understand not just what I believe, but why I believe it as well.

I once held many paranormal beliefs. At one time I even believed I had a power animal (it was a frog). I no longer hold such beliefs, as I could find no good reason for doing so.

Would you like to talk about why you believe what you believe, or just explain what you believe?

Tock.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:21 pm
@richrf,
Manfred,

I love you, too. So I simply have to say this to you.

At first I fell into the temptation of speaking with you about suicide, because I believed it to be just one more topic. I have since changed my mind on this issue and feel that there is something more going on with you than a mere curiosity about such subjects.

This is a dangerous little game that you are playing. It can get out of hand.

I strongly advise you to seek help. This type of intervention is not something to be carried on over the net, successfully.

This is my last word with you on this subject. The ball is in your court.

Sincerely,
S9
 
manfred
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 02:59 pm
@Subjectivity9,
yes or no...you remember that first conversation?
You remember the first place your mind went?
I do..you went right to suicide,did it ever cross your mind that i meant you either believe or you dont believe?(the question is irrelevant..ring any bells)
You should probable read it again,and this time keep in mind that telling a person as delusional as i appear to be that"I strongly advise you to seek help. This type of intervention is not something to be carried on over the net, successfully" isn't really the best way to articulate a frustration you just cant man up and say out loud. It was you that said you always put other people's emotions before your own,right?
S9,i didnt come to this website to be talked out of suicide,i came in here to find out something i already knew about the true nature of people's sincerity,and i have to admit im not shocked in the least...thanks little buddy....you most definitely have it figured out.
All expect the part where you realise im not the bad guy....so here's you ball back,i was never really good at sports anyway.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 05:30 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

Questioning what a person believes and why they believe it remains if the land of ideas, this is true. A critique of the person holding these ideas is out of place, in my way of seeing it. This is called an ad hominem attack. I don’t believe that even anthropologists should be allowed to conduct them selves in this manner. Do you?

I also think that if we are going to continue to correspond, that you should be more forthcoming about what you believe personally, not just what you disagree with in my statements. This is called sharing equally.

Are you a humanist? All the talk about responsibility made me wonder about this. If not what do you hold dear, idea wise?

It seems a little too synchronistic that I told a story about a frog lately on another thread, and now you are telling me that you once thought a frog was your power animal. But I could be wrong in this. Should I be suspecting that you are just a game player, and write you off?

S9
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 06:03 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;99098 wrote:

It seems a little too synchronistic that I told a story about a frog lately on another thread, and now you are telling me that you once thought a frog was your power animal. But I could be wrong in this. Should I be suspecting that you are just a game player, and write you off?

S9


No. Our frog posts are coincidental.

For a time I practiced shamanic drumming (as learned from reading Michael Harner's book, The Way of the Shaman), and on one journey I encountered a frog, which I took to be my "power animal." Future journeys also contained frog imagery, but I suspect that was based more on expectation that anything else. I also created a vivid mental landscape that I entered by traveling through a tunnel.

However, it is irrelevant whether you believe me when I tell you I once held these beliefs, or if I am just jerking your chain. What is relevant, is that I no longer hold these beliefs.

I'm still trying to piece together what I believe, as I spent a lot of years as a foolish drunk (is it possible to launch an ad hominem attack on oneself?).

Existentialism holds a lot of interest for me, however.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 08:24 pm
@richrf,
TT Man,

Don’t ask me why, but I feel that if you are telling me that the frog posts were coincidental, then I can believe you.

Whenever I think of telling you stuff like this, I always feel like you will put a mark under the crazy column next to my names. But, I saw someone’s power animal appear right on their face one time.It was a lone wolf, larger than usual.

I wasn’t really into shamanism at the time, and no, I wasn’t on drugs then either. I sometimes wonder if our right brain doesn’t give us information in a more pictorial way, things perhaps picked up from our preconscious.

The traveling through the tunnel and entering into a vivid landscape, that you did, may very well have been a recollection of your birth changed ever so slightly because of your trancing.

Trancing can sometimes be spontaneous. The fact that you were able to do this trancing shows a certain amount of receptivity and even creativity, at least in my way of seeing it.

Most people are wound so tightly that they cannot think (will not allow themselves to think) outside of the box.

Many people, who have at one time of another spontaneously tranced, will often associate this experience religiously in order to explain it.

When Jesus said, “Judge not, that you be not judged,” he was speaking about how our mind works. If we judge others harshly, this is exactly how we will in turn end up judging our selves. This is because the habits of mind that cause this judging, will judge everything the same way.

People often don’t realize what a standard of perfection they hold themselves too. This impossible standard of perfection only causes us great suffering. This is perhaps too, why people are so prone to blaming others, hoping to deflect some of this harsh judgment off of themselves. But it doesn’t work.

So yes, to make a short story long, I do think that we can launch an ad hominem attack upon our selves.

I believe that existentialism is quite a good philosophy, as far as it goes. But, it is a rather hopeless and depressing one. Perhaps this is because it defines only too well the feeling of being trapped in the small human life (prison) with a mind that is capable of (no even humgers for) freedom.

Now there is a philosophy that could drive you to drink.

Many college age students suffer mental problems, when dealing with this particular philosophy upon first being away from home. You have to be made of tuff/stuff to torture yourself intellectually. But as you have often said, “Why do it?”

Is it because we believe that it must be true, if it is that bad, because who would chose it otherwise? We tell ourself that we are being intellectually honest and even brave to suffer this world veiw.

Been there, done that! ; ^ )

S9
 
 

 
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