I THINK therefore I AM

@Aedes,

Aedes;71952 wrote:

By true you mean happening out in the real world, right? Because it's all happening in your head? Sort of like memories?

But if you think you remember being in Japan, and you have not been in Japan, then you only think you remember, you don't remember. Now what is it that you remember in your dreams, do you think? Remembering in my dream is like taking a walk in my dream. When I take a walk in my dream, that's not taking a walk; and when I remember in my dream, that not remembering. The, "in my dream" makes all the difference. You don't think that if a character in a story takes a walk, that implies that someone took a walk, do you?

@richrf,

So are you saying that you can't have a false memory when you're awake, then?

You can't mis-recollect something?

There's no such thing as a deja vu?

And if you remember something that DID happen when you so happen to be dreaming, is it just a coincidence that the content of that dreamed memory is also an actual memory?

@Aedes,

Aedes;71954 wrote:

So are you saying that you can't have a false memory when you're awake, then?

You can't mis-recollect something?

There's no such thing as a deja vu?

If you mean by, "false memory" that you can think you remember, but in fact, you don't remember (what you think you remember never happened) then of course you can. And do. Sure, there is (reportedly) deja vu. What makes you think I deny that? All I said is that you cannot remember what did not happen, just as you cannot know what is false. After all, remembering is just knowledge of the past.

@richrf,

Yes, and if a dream contains knowledge of your waking life's true past, then the only thing that differentiates it from an otherwise conventional memory is the state of wakefulness in which you've apprehended it.

@Aedes,

Aedes;71958 wrote:

Yes, and if a dream contains knowledge of your waking life's true past, then the only thing that differentiates it from an otherwise conventional memory is the state of wakefulness in which you've apprehended it.

You would have to give me an example of what you mean. But suppose that in the past, you ate a large piece of cherry pie, and you got sick. Now, three years later, you dream you ate a large piece of cherry pie, and got sick. Are you remembering in your dream the incident? I doubt it. When you are dreaming you are unconscious. I don't think you can remember anything when unconscious.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;71943 wrote:

You cannot remember what is not true. Nothing that happens in dreams is true. You can draw the conclusion yourself.

Except that sometimes people experience something in dreams that is true in waking life.

My case of beer was, in fact, in the refrigerator in my dream and in waking life. The morning after the dream i check the fridge - and sure enough I found my case of beer.

So, in my dream the beer was in the fridge, and in real life the beer was in the fridge. Things that happen in dreams might be true, or they might not be true. To say that everything in dreams is universally untrue of reality is far too extreme.

I can recall I particular shirt of mine from a dream a few nights ago. It appeared exactly the same in the dream as it appears in reality - a green polo. It is a green polo in reality and a green polo in my dream. Oddly enough, in my dream I noticed a small burn hole in the polo that, upon inspection while awake, also existed in the shirt. I had no idea until I dreamed it.

I am not trying to suggest a one to one relationship with dreams and reality, only that sometimes such a relationship does exist.

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;71990 wrote:

Except that sometimes people experience something in dreams that is true in waking life.

My case of beer was, in fact, in the refrigerator in my dream and in waking life. The morning after the dream i check the fridge - and sure enough I found my case of beer.

So, in my dream the beer was in the fridge, and in real life the beer was in the fridge. Things that happen in dreams might be true, or they might not be true. To say that everything in dreams is universally untrue of reality is far too extreme.

I can recall I particular shirt of mine from a dream a few nights ago. It appeared exactly the same in the dream as it appears in reality - a green polo. It is a green polo in reality and a green polo in my dream. Oddly enough, in my dream I noticed a small burn hole in the polo that, upon inspection while awake, also existed in the shirt. I had no idea until I dreamed it.

I am not trying to suggest a one to one relationship with dreams and reality, only that sometimes such a relationship does exist.

But why does that mean that they are remembering what happened when awake? Are you saying that your dreams can tell you what is true? I think you are about ready for superstition. You don't really think that one case or two cases of your dreaming what also happens to be true, shows any connection, do you?

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

But why does that mean that they are remembering what happened when awake? Are you saying that your dreams can tell you what is true? I think you are about ready for superstition. You don't really think that one case or two cases of your dreaming what also happens to be true, shows any connection, do you?

Hi,

I think one of the points here is that there was some connection to what is commonly referred to as reality, which may be more than some people experience. This I find interesting.

When I dream, there are some people in my dreams that I know, but the overall sense of the dream is much, much different than what we call reality, and I find this simple idea quite fascinating. Everything may be part of reality, if one chooses to call it that, but why does it feel so much different. How does that happen? Same mind - totally different feeling, e.g. space/time vs. no space/time.

I think it is also something to note, that concepts which often we think are obvious and are held my most people by consensus may be anything but when it is discussed and examined. The notion of sleep means different things to different people.

Rich

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

But why does that mean that they are remembering what happened when awake?

Because what are the chances he would just randomly dream about the same green polo that he has on his bed? That sounds like superstition. Obviously the dream is incorporating a memory, a memory he acquired while awake. Dreams can tell you what is true because they can often incorporate memories which happen to be true.

Have you never dreamed about anything that you have conscious memory of? I have.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;72005 wrote:

Because what are the chances he would just randomly dream about the same green polo that he has on his bed? That sounds like superstition. Obviously the dream is incorporating a memory, a memory he acquired while awake. Dreams can tell you what is true because they can often incorporate memories which happen to be true.

Have you never dreamed about anything that you have conscious memory of? I have.

The chances are, I would say, excellent. But, although there are a number of theories why we dream as we do, there are none which are conclusive. But it is likely that there are causes that we dream about what we dream about. So what? What would that have to do with remembering events? Of course, I suppose, we weave what happens to us into our dreams. But that does not mean we are remembering anything. We are dreaming. That is not remembering. Why would you think that when you dream of your shirt you are remembering your shirt?

@kennethamy,

Kennethamy wrote:

Of course, I suppose, we weave what happens to us into our dreams. But that does not mean we are remembering anything

How can we weave things that happened to us in our dreams without remembering?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;72014 wrote:

How can we weave things that happened to us in our dreams without remembering?

What I would like to point out is that remembering is one thing, which is interesting. However, there is, at least in my experiences, a marked difference between the way I may remember awake state matter in a dream (assuming I am remembering my dreams as they were), as opposed to the way I remember dreams in my awake state.

The best that I can explain it is that when I am awake there is a clear sense of time/space and no sense of time/space when dreaming. Therefore, whatever I remember in a dream of awake state events (e.g. people, places), there is no sense of temporal or spacial context. Things are just happening. In an awake state, I put temporal and spacial context to everything. Therefore, remembering feels completely different. Again, I have no idea how the mind switches between these two states.

It is also interesting to consider, if one is conscious or not conscious of oneself in a dream. I think I am thinking, and I have a sense of ME, but in a totally different way than when I am awake. I think therefore I am, still seems to be present, but in a completely different way.

Rich

Rich

@richrf,

Quote:

The best that I can explain it is that when I am awake there is a clear sense of time/space and no sense of time/space when dreaming. Therefore, whatever I remember in a dream of awake state events (e.g. people, places), there is no sense of temporal or spacial context. Things are just happening. In an awake state, I put temporal and spacial context to everything. Therefore, remembering feels completely different. Again, I have no idea how the mind switches between these two states.

I would agree, the remembrance is different.

But I do think we remember things, at least in an image-esque way. That is, we may not be able to temporally or spatially associate things, but we can associate things. I can dream about my green polo even if the green polo in my dream is in some illogical location, like the Empire State Building. I would then conclude I dreamed about my green polo. I wouldn't conclude I just coincidentally dreamed about a green polo (especially considering I've had the green polo on my bed for weeks).

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;71905 wrote:

It is nonsense. Read the Discourse on the Method. It is there in black and white.
It is not a matter of opinion (perspective). Whether it is there is a question of fact. And the fact is that it is.

I conceded this point some time ago. Certainly it is not a matter of opinion.

@Whoever,

Whoever;72049 wrote:

I conceded this point some time ago. Certainly it is not a matter of opinion.

But immediately upon this I observed that, whilst I thus wished to think that all was false, it was absolutely necessary that I, who thus thought, should be somewhat; and as I observed that this truth, I think, therefore I am (COGITO ERGO SUM), was so certain and of such evidence that no ground of doubt, however extravagant, could be alleged by the sceptics capable of shaking it, I concluded that I might, without scruple, accept it as the first principle of the philosophy of which I was in search

Discourse On the Method

@richrf,

Yes, I conceded this point some time ago. Certainly it is not a matter of opinion.

@Whoever,

Whoever;72083 wrote:

Yes, I conceded this point some time ago. Certainly it is not a matter of opinion.

So, which point did you not concede?

---------- Post added at 09:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 AM ----------

Zetherin;72014 wrote:

How can we weave things that happened to us in our dreams without remembering?

Because, that is not remembering when we are not conscious. To remember is (at least) to believe something about the past that is true. No one is believing anything when he dreams.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;72021 wrote:

I would agree, the remembrance is different.

But I do think we remember things, at least in an image-esque way. That is, we may not be able to temporally or spatially associate things, but we can associate things. I can dream about my green polo even if the green polo in my dream is in some illogical location, like the Empire State Building. I would then conclude I dreamed about my green polo. I wouldn't conclude I just coincidentally dreamed about a green polo (especially considering I've had the green polo on my bed for weeks).

Hi,

Yes. But maybe my point is too subtle because it may be so obvious. How does this switch, e.g. the way we remember things, occur in the same mind? What is the impetus for the switch? For me, for example, saying it is genetics, is not satisfactory.

Thanks for your comment.

Rich

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;72090 wrote:

So, which point did you not concede?

How can I answer this? All of them except the one I did.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;71967 wrote:

You would have to give me an example of what you mean. But suppose that in the past, you ate a large piece of cherry pie, and you got sick. Now, three years later, you dream you ate a large piece of cherry pie, and got sick. Are you remembering in your dream the incident? I doubt it. When you are dreaming you are unconscious. I don't think you can remember anything when unconscious.

The bulk of the theories in regard to the neurological function of dreams heavily implicate memories. One theory is that dreams play a large role in memory consolidation. So they might sort out what you observed during the day, and as a result you might experience the memory in your dream or you might even remember something in your dream.

For instance, when I was little, I wanted a game cube. I had a dream that I got a game cube, but then I remembered what the release date for the game cube was and verified it, but that was compensated for with some kind of early release in the dream. I still remembered the fact in my dream.

Also, it is not really totally accurate that you can't exhibit a form of perceived consciousness in your dreams indistinguishable from waking consciousness. Lucid dreaming is a well documented phenomenon.

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