True he said that but when he actually tried to come up with a scenario where he was being fooled by an evil demon, his conclusions came to the idea that he couldnt conceive of himself not existing.

True he said that but when he actually tried to come up with a scenario where he was being fooled by an evil demon, his conclusions came to the idea that he couldnt conceive of himself not existing.

And, again, in the scenario he presupposes his own existence.

Before we can devise a way to doubt the existence of the self, we have to firmly arrive at what we consider this self to be. Descartes imagined an unchanging, eternal self that exists independently of physical bodies.

If we take this basic concept, we can easily develop doubt. We can start with the simplest of practices: identify the unchanging, eternal self. What is eternal and unchanging about you? Unless we can clearly identify something to play this role as the eternal and unchanging essence, we have no reason to suppose such a self. Descartes fumbled with this, mentioned the pituitary gland, but was ultimately unable to sight anything as eternal and unchanging that is essentially the "I".

How could anyone conceive of himself as not existing? In order to do so, would he not have to exist? It is, therefore, not a personal thing with Descartes. It is impossible for anyone to conceive himself as not existing.

And, again, in the scenario he presupposes his own existence.

Before we can devise a way to doubt the existence of the self, we have to firmly arrive at what we consider this self to be. Descartes imagined an unchanging, eternal self that exists independently of physical bodies.

Why are you asking me this? That is exactly what I am saying.

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Consiousness causes collapse (quantum mechanic interpretation)


Rich

Well, because you did not saying that. What you said was that it was impossible for Descartes to conceive himself as non-existent. But what Descartes had in mind was that it was impossible for anyone to conceive of himself as non-existent.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt the collapse due to light being shined on the object which in turn disrupts its superposition, not because of our consciousness?

Why spiral? Is it just because of what Russel said, or is there a different conception?

So when Descartes exclaimed I think therefore I am he actually was describing something very, very different from dualism. Instead of being separated, Consciousness and Physical Body are a continuum of the same. All intertwined and connected like waves in an ocean.

I wonder if he realized it and was just afraid to articulate it because of the religious times. Maybe he was misinterpreted? Maybe he didn't even realize it himself. Who knows? But the irony always strikes me as being very amusing and exciting. Rich

If essence cannot think then his 'I' is not essence but must be epiphenomenal on essence, and thus, in a metaphysical sense, not really exist.

Very true that thinking entails existence, but Descartes didn't prove anything. He pretty much expressed a tautology.

I don't think that you can say that the I -of a human living- doesn't really exist The I really exists, that is to say it is sure that this I is not.

Perhaps you want to say that the reality of the existence is a secondary one (epiphenomenal).

But Descartes, so far as I can see, presupposed nothing. He simply pointed out that for someone to doubt that he existed it was necessary that he exist. The notion of the the self comes afterward.

Descartes believed that the Cogito was his place to stand which was certain, and absolutely firm, and that, standing in that place, he could build the edifice of certain knowledge and defeat skepticism forever. No playing, no smiles, no Mona Lisas. Just the epistemological theory called, "foundationalism".

It is far from clear that Descartes was a dualist. He says in various places that the mind and body are both two and one. I'd say his position has been widely misunderstood.