I THINK therefore I AM

@richrf,

This is curious. How could it make sense that when we dream we are unconscious? Or that we might dream about a green polo shirt without ever having had an experience of one? This would not be the orthodox view in consciousness studies and I can't see what motivates it. It doesn't seem to make sense. It appears to open up the possibility that rocks can dream, and that we are capable of creating the narrative of dreams from scratch, without any need to remember anything of our waking experiences. If so, it's a hell of coincidence that we dream about things we know about already. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something here, but I wouldn't have thought it takes much prior knowledge or expertise to deduce that this view is wrong.

Perhaps its based on an unusual concept of 'unconscious.' Or perhaps mine is unusual. Or perhaps it's the idea that 'rememembering' must be a volitional act, and that it cannot be called this when it is just old patterns of neurons refiring spontaneously while we sleep. Is that it?

@Whoever,

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

But why does that mean that they are remembering what happened when awake?

How else would my dream contain true to life things? By what other mechanism would such a thing occur - chance?

Remembering, or something quite similar, in a dream seems to be the most plausible explanation.

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

Are you saying that your dreams can tell you what is true?

I am saying that it is possible to dream something that is true in waking life.

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

I think you are about ready for superstition.

And I'm not sure you are thinking this through. I'm not proposing any kind of magical dream reading or anything like that. Instead, I am simply saying that it is possible to dream something that is true in waking life.

kennethamy;72001 wrote:

You don't really think that one case or two cases of your dreaming what also happens to be true, shows any connection, do you?

No - these are not just one or two cases. This is a common occurrence for me while dreaming. It is quite rare that I have a dream in which nothing in the dream accurately corresponds to reality.

And this makes perfect sense when we look at theories regarding how people dream. I passed Psych 101.

@Whoever,

Whoever;72162 wrote:

This is curious. How could it make sense that when we dream we are unconscious?

I think ultimately, the basic questions have to be at least addressed if not answered.

Calling something unconscious or conscious means nothing unless we can define what they are. Both states are entered into by exactly the same mind. How does the mind switch its own state? What is the impetus behind this switch.

So we have some neurons, and stuff just merrily going along during the day, doing this, seeing that, making this, etc. etc. etc. All of this is a space/time world where we are sensing things and remembering things in a certain pattern and then.... all of as sudden - POP! It is doing none of this. It has switched. Everything is different! What was the impetus? Where did it come from? How does the mind change its own state of being? Who pulled the switch?

I do not think any scientific explanation can answer this question. I think intuition is the path.

Inquiring minds want to know. Smile

Which gets us back to: I THINK therefore I AM. What is thought, that makes us who we are?

Rich

---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Didymos Thomas;72167 wrote:

It is quite rare that I have a dream in which nothing in the dream accurately corresponds to reality.

And this makes perfect sense when we look at theories regarding how people dream. I passed Psych 101.

I cannot remember any dream that corresponded to something in real life. Lots of symbolism maybe, but correspondence? None, whatsoever. I can say practically zero if not absolute zero.

As for commonplace ... well, it may be. But my experiences and readings say otherwise. People, when I talk to them about their dreams, or when I read about dreaming, report very "dreamy" type of images and experiences.

But it would be interesting to hear from a cross-section of the forum members, about whether their dream experiences correspond to their waking experiences or whether they are quite different. For me, the experiences are totally different - though they are manifesting from the same mind.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf wrote:

I cannot remember any dream that corresponded to something in real life. Lots of symbolism maybe, but correspondence? None, whatsoever. I can say practically zero if not absolute zero.

Really, so you only dream of fantasy notions? You've never dreamed of a person, place or thing you've experienced in real life? That seems odd to me. Most of my dreams have some correlation to the real world. If anything, I at least recognize "self" in my dreams, a notion I'd say corresponds to my conscious experience (real life).

@richrf,

richrf;72168 wrote:

I cannot remember any dream that corresponded to something in real life. Lots of symbolism maybe, but correspondence? None, whatsoever. I can say practically zero if not absolute zero.

As for commonplace ... well, it may be. But my experiences and readings say otherwise. People, when I talk to them about their dreams, or when I read about dreaming, report very "dreamy" type of images and experiences.

But it would be interesting to hear from a cross-section of the forum members, about whether their dream experiences correspond to their waking experiences or whether they are quite different. For me, the experiences are totally different - though they are manifesting from the same mind.

Rich

I think that I see where Didymos is having trouble communicating what he means, and you are having trouble picking up on it.

What he is saying is that objects you see in your dreams, walls, caves, mountains, clothes, relate to objects you see in waking life, and any object that does not relate directly, such as some monster, is in fact an amalgamation of several objects that do in fact have waking analogs.

I have had dreams that include objects that could be ascribed to waking imagination or waking life, but not objects that in no way relate to the visual/aural/sensual boundaries of those. Some of my dreams are more fantastic than others, some are more vivid.

Once I had a very vivid dream in which I had a family and wife and kids. I interacted with the kids and made love to the wife. I also argued with the wife and had trouble with the kids, parts of the dream were great, others were very, very stressful. It was an extremely vivid dream and I was a bit confused when I awoke from it. Everything in it corresponded to real life experiences I have had that simply amalgamated themselves into a new piece of experience.

Another dream I had was as a child. I very much liked the ninja turtles, and I think that I must have watched the big Lebowski at some point, because I was running with the ninja turtles away from Shredder, the villain of the Ninja turtles series, and we were running along a giant bowling ally. I had to dodge bowling balls and such, and I distinctly remember shredder killing the ninja turtles and turning to me. Needless to say it was a bit of a nightmare, but all of the parts of it corresponded to real life analoges, whether they were originally manifest as imaginary characters or real life objects with new attributes(like the giant bowling balls).

I have never had a dream experience that I could not break down into real life attributes that had simply been rearranged.

@Zetetic11235,

Zetetic11235;72186 wrote:

I think that I see where Didymos is having trouble communicating what he means, and you are having trouble picking up on it.

What he is saying is that objects you see in your dreams, walls, caves, mountains, clothes, relate to objects you see in waking life, and any object that does not relate directly, such as some monster, is in fact an amalgamation of several objects that do in fact have waking analogs.

I have had dreams that include objects that could be ascribed to waking imagination or waking life, but not objects that in no way relate to the visual/aural/sensual boundaries of those. Some of my dreams are more fantastic than others, some are more vivid.

Once I had a very vivid dream in which I had a family and wife and kids. I interacted with the kids and made love to the wife. I also argued with the wife and had trouble with the kids, parts of the dream were great, others were very, very stressful. It was an extremely vivid dream and I was a bit confused when I awoke from it. Everything in it corresponded to real life experiences I have had that simply amalgamated themselves into a new piece of experience.

Another dream I had was as a child. I very much liked the ninja turtles, and I think that I must have watched the big Lebowski at some point, because I was running with the ninja turtles away from Shredder, the villain of the Ninja turtles series, and we were running along a giant bowling ally. I had to dodge bowling balls and such, and I distinctly remember shredder killing the ninja turtles and turning to me. Needless to say it was a bit of a nightmare, but all of the parts of it corresponded to real life analoges, whether they were originally manifest as imaginary characters or real life objects with new attributes(like the giant bowling balls).

I have never had a dream experience that I could not break down into real life attributes that had simply been rearranged.

But what is that supposed to show about remembering, if true? But, apart from that, you make a factual claim for which you give only anecdotal evidence. And, as is well said, "for instance is no argument". Have there been studies made, for example, with creative artists as subjects to see whether they do not have dreams that incorporate images that cannot be, as you say, "broken down" into elements you have experienced when you were awake, and which are contributions of the mind alone? I have no idea. Do you?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;72175 wrote:

Really, so you only dream of fantasy notions? You've never dreamed of a person, place or thing you've experienced in real life? That seems odd to me. Most of my dreams have some correlation to the real world. If anything, I at least recognize "self" in my dreams, a notion I'd say corresponds to my conscious experience (real life).

Most of my dreams have no correspondence to real life. The characters are usually symbolic. And before you start jumping to conclusions, I suggest you read about dreams a bit. My experiences are quite the norm. Symbolism in dreams have been long studied - formally and informally. As I said, all of my friends, when they describe their dreams, describe very symbolic type events. I have been to dream groups with similar type of experiences.

Rich

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------

Zetetic11235;72186 wrote:

I think that I see where Didymos is having trouble communicating what he means, and you are having trouble picking up on it.

Yes. I understand this. What I am suggesting is that the experience of a dream is very much difference from the awake state. This may not amaze you. Fine. But I think scientists would have a very tough time explaining how the switch from one state to another state occurs.

Rich

@richrf,

kennethamy;72195 wrote:

But what is that supposed to show about remembering, if true?

I'm not trying to show something about remembering - I'm making a very simple claim that dreams can contain things as they are in real life.

kennethamy;72195 wrote:

But, apart from that, you make a factual claim for which you give only anecdotal evidence.

What do you want me to do? Take a picture of my dream and upload it to the forum? Sheesh.

Do you think I am a liar? That I am making things up about my dreams? Seriously, bro, slow down and think through this. I am sure that you can figure this out if you stop trying to poke holes and start trying to comprehend.

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;72203 wrote:

I'm not trying to show something about remembering - I'm making a very simple claim that dreams can contain things as they are in real life.

What do you want me to do? Take a picture of my dream and upload it to the forum? Sheesh.

Do you think I am a liar? That I am making things up about my dreams? Seriously, bro, slow down and think through this. I am sure that you can figure this out if you stop trying to poke holes and start trying to comprehend.

Take it easy. You are not being accused of lying. You are accused of making a mistake. That's different. Dreams, first of all, do not contain things. They contain images of things. Dream-images. What reason have you for thinking that those images are images of things in waking life. Only that you now (waking) believe they do. But sometimes, people believe things and turn out to be mistaken. You seem to be so sure you are not? Any particular reason, or just your belief? Can dream images resemble what you see in waking life? I suppose so. Are they? I guess we do not know, at least, now. There is no hard evidence either way. The anecdotal evidence is all your evidence. It is not evidence from anyone else, and, unless you are a creative artist it is not evidence from creative artists who may, for all I know, say that some of their dream images are not of anything they have experienced in waking life.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;72195 wrote:

But what is that supposed to show about remembering, if true? But, apart from that, you make a factual claim for which you give only anecdotal evidence. And, as is well said, "for instance is no argument".

I'm just trying to clarify the fact that people do in fact remember facts(which are indeed memories) in their dreams, and therefore can distinguish between memories and the general state of the dream . I am a person. I remember facts, which are indeed memories, in my dreams. Therefore some people experience facts or memories in their dreams.

kennethamy;72195 wrote:

Have there been studies made, for example, with creative artists as subjects to see whether they do not have dreams that incorporate images that cannot be, as you say, "broken down" into elements you have experienced when you were awake, and which are contributions of the mind alone? I have no idea. Do you?

I don't know, what if flying unicorns really do exist? We could just do a study and see what people in the insane asylum have to say, from that we can infer whether or not there are indeed flying unicorns.

Wouldn't this be a good place to apply Ockham's razor? Why should we assume dream experience is unrelated to memories simply because you can make up some unverifiable situation that might give it validity? You are speculating about trying to make the subjective into the objective.

@Zetetic11235,

Zetetic11235;72215 wrote:

I'm just trying to clarify the fact that people do in fact remember facts(which are indeed memories) in their dreams, and therefore can distinguish between memories and the general state of the dream . I am a person. I remember facts, which are indeed memories, in my dreams. Therefore some people experience facts or memories in their dreams.

I don't know, what if flying unicorns really do exist? We could just do a study and see what people in the insane asylum have to say, from that we can infer whether or not there are indeed flying unicorns.

Wouldn't this be a good place to apply Ockham's razor? Why should we assume dream experience is unrelated to memories simply because you can make up some unverifiable situation that might give it validity? You are speculating about trying to make the subjective into the objective.

I remember facts, which are indeed memories, in my dreams.

But exactly that is what is at issue. Whether you do, at least whenever you dream, remember facts which are memories. What is your evidence, except that you believe it is true? And that is not good enough.
Therefore, you are committing the fallacy of begging the question: assuming that what is at issue is true.

@richrf,

richrf;72196 wrote:

Yes. I understand this. What I am suggesting is that the experience of a dream is very much difference from the awake state. This may not amaze you. Fine. But I think scientists would have a very tough time explaining how the switch from one state to another state occurs.

Rich

They can explain pretty well what happens neurologically, but not necessarily what happens subjectively. Even if science gives us an accurate physical picture of what is happening, I'm pretty sure that there will be no evidence relating to the claim you are making.

---------- Post added at 08:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 PM ----------

kennethamy;72213 wrote:

That's different. Dreams, first of all, do not contain things. They contain images of things. Dream-images. What reason have you for thinking that those images are images of things in waking life.

The only reason would be my memory of the dream.

kennethamy;72213 wrote:

Only that you now (waking) believe they do. But sometimes, people believe things and turn out to be mistaken. You seem to be so sure you are not?

kennethamy;72222 wrote:

I remember facts, which are indeed memories, in my dreams.

But exactly that is what is at issue. Whether you do, at least whenever you dream, remember facts which are memories. What is your evidence, except that you believe it is true? And that is not good enough.
Therefore, you are committing the fallacy of begging the question: assuming that what is at issue is true.

No one is totally sure of anything. Weren't you the one who was just arguing for the practicality of knowledge in the causality thread? I'm not sure that the sky was blue yesterday, maybe it was green. Maybe all of my memories are false, so why should I believe any inductive conclusions? Maybe science is really wrong, its all inductive, so its based on memory, maybe the scientist's memories of the results of the experiments were off, so their conclusions are wrong. Maybe they have always been wrong, I just remember them being right. Oh no!

kennethamy;72213 wrote:

It is not evidence from anyone else, and, unless you are a creative artist it is not evidence from creative artists who may, for all I know, say that some of their dream images are not of anything they have experienced in waking life.

What is a 'creative artist'? I drawn some pretty strange things, and I'm pretty good at it, but every piece of art I have seen or created can be broken down into forms and attributes that I have seen elsewhere.

It seems like you are implying some sort of mystical aspect of the dream world that isn't firmly rooted in what is physically or logically possible. If you have a sensual representation of some object in your dream, it necessarily has a waking analog. I can imagine an object that has certain sensual characteristics, characteristics that are innate in sense experience. If an object is a sensual representation, then it has a waking analog be it a memory of a real object or an object of my imagination. How could it not?

@Zetetic11235,

Zetetic11235;72226 wrote:

They can explain pretty well what happens neurologically, but not necessarily what happens subjectively.

I would appreciate any references or links as to how the mind makes the switch from awake to sleep. I have searched everywhere, and not only have I not found any explanations, I have not even found the topic broached. Thanks.

Quote:

What is a 'creative artist'? I drawn some pretty strange things, and I'm pretty good at it, but every piece of art I have seen or created can be broken down into forms and attributes that I have seen elsewhere.

Have you looked into cubism at all?

Rich

@richrf,

kennethamy wrote:

But exactly that is what is at issue. Whether you do, at least whenever you dream, remember facts which are memories. What is your evidence, except that you believe it is true? And that is not good enough.
Therefore, you are committing the fallacy of begging the question: assuming that what is at issue is true.

What kind of justification do you seek?

I saw Jim, my best friend of 15 years, wearing a green polo in real life. I now dream of Jim, my best friend of 15 years, wearing a green polo. What conclusion should I come to?

A.) I remember memories in my dreams.
B.) I coincidentally dreamt about the same memory I have while awake.

A seems like the logical choice. B seems absolutely absurd.

Many studies have concluded that memories are effected while one sleeps. Whether it's consolodation, formation or preservation, there is some correlation here. Granted, I haven't read every single theory, but I'm pretty sure there is consensus sleeping effects memories in some way. That said, it's a safe bet dreams have something to do with memories.

Here's a decent article on it, I think:
Animals have complex dreams, MIT researcher proves - MIT News Office

"We looked at the firing patterns of a collection of individual cells to determine the content of rats' dreams. We know that they are in fact dreaming and their dreams are connected to actual experiences"

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;72239 wrote:

What kind of justification do you seek?

I saw Jim, my best friend of 15 years, wearing a green polo in real life. I now dream of Jim, my best friend of 15 years, wearing a green polo. What conclusion should I come to?

A.) I remember memories in my dreams.
B.) I coincidentally dreamt about the same memory I have while awake.

A seems like the logical choice. B seems absolutely absurd.

Many studies have concluded that memories are effected while one sleeps. Whether it's consolodation, formation or preservation, there is some correlation here. Granted, I haven't read every single theory, but I'm pretty sure there is consensus sleeping effects memories in some way. That said, it's a safe bet dreams can have something to do with memories.

Here's a decent article on it, I think:
Animals have complex dreams, MIT researcher proves - MIT News Office

"We looked at the firing patterns of a collection of individual cells to determine the content of rats' dreams. We know that they are in fact dreaming and their dreams are connected to actual experiences"

What does, I remember memories in my dreams, mean? And what does the fact that animals dream have to do with it? How does the fact that the firing of cells causes dreams have anything to do with the contents of the dreams: in rats, or in human beings?

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;70885 wrote:

There is nothing definitive about his claim. It's nonsense, contains a glaring logical flaw. His premise presupposes his conclusion. It's junk. It's hard to believe that his proposition was taken so seriously for such a long time. And I'm quite glad we have over come taking Descartes seriously.

Descartes is said to be one of the colossal mind that ever walked the earth.

Am I am? , if I think I am?

I believe in the interconnectivity of all fundamental particles in the universe

Or cosmic mindful that matter

http://lusciousblue.com/content/binary/newborn.jpg

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;72243 wrote:

What does, I remember memories in my dreams, mean?

It means memories have associations with dreams. "Remember", I believe, is your discrepancy here, but I'm not certain if one can remember while dreaming. From what I've read, it appears the answer is leaning more towards: Yes, you can (and often do). This is why I stated what I stated.

Quote:

And what does the fact that animals dream have to do with it? How does the fact that the firing of cells causes dreams have anything to do with the contents of the dreams: in rats, or in human beings?

You might start at actually clicking the link. Or doing your own research. I believe it's consensus we dream about actual experiences. I don't really know how you're contesting this.

But I'd like to know how: Care to share you argument?

@richrf,

richrf;71555 wrote:

Totally. To me it is amazing. I have never been there, so if you (or anyone else) has some accounts you can related to me I would appreciate it. I am interested in the general feelings that you observe and what you are dreaming. Thanks.

Hello Rich,

Im 42 now, and ive had maybe 5 Lucid dreams, But when i was 25 I had an OBE. It was totally unexpected, and hasnt happened again since. Ive even tried to reproduce it to no avail.

Here is a brief description of what happened:

I was going to sleep for the night, and after a few minutes i was in a hypnagogic state(I think), and i was alerted all of the sudden, became aware like something pre-empted my consciousness, the process started slow, with a kind of moderately pitched humming noise i could hear, and there was a feeling of movement around my center of consciousness. There began a seperation of concsiousness from body and i was aware of this and my consciousness started to ascend upward, as i was rising, the humming noise started to increase in pitch, and there seemed to be a sort of whooshing sound all around me, i could feel some kind of energy as well, like a force of some kind..I didnt seem to have any control over this, and was just an observer as it were, anyways, as i rose higher and higher the humming grew louder in pitch, and there was a sense of motion all around me, and the whooshing sound, as if electrons were circling my consciousness, and then everything started to gradually slow, the sounds faded and whatever was circling around my consciousness was moving so slow i could see it, like a small particle with a tail from motion blur or something, and it disappeared and i seemed to be at about ceiling level, and everything was calm and quiet, and I knew what had just happened, in a general way. I remember looking down and seeing my girlfriend laying there, I didnt look at myself for some reason. The last thing i remember was being in a lucid dream state, and then it was all over. I guess slipped into a mormal dream state at that point.

Its a very difficult experience to try and explain, but i gave it a shot.

The next day it was all i could think about. I went online and started searching for info, that was how i learned it was called an OBE, and i read many accounts from others that had them, but they all seemed diffferent, although one person did mention sounds similar to what i heard.

Neil

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;72247 wrote:

Descartes is said to be one of the colossal mind that ever walked the earth.

Am I am? , if I think I am?

I believe in the interconnectivity of all fundamental particles in the universe

Or cosmic mindful that matter

Oh, crappy baloney!

@richrf,

richrf;72235 wrote:

Have you looked into cubism at all?

Rich

The basic forms found in cubist paintings are found elsewhere. I might find the hues of the painting in the paint used to paint them or maybe I see a rock that has the color pattern of a patch of the painting made in Picasso's blue period. I might see a geometric form found in Matisse in nature, or I might see the pattern of the dress one of the figures is wearing on a piece of cloth in a store window. We abstract visual attributes, rearrange them and produce a painting. It still all comes from experience.

My point is that if an object can be conceivably constructed out of an amalgamation of sense quanta, then it is necessarily a waking object. So the claim that some object is present in a dream that has no waking analog is essentially this:'There are objects in dreams that have a form that cannot be related in any way to the logical possibilities that come out of waking experience', so that essentially you are telling me that the logical forms found in dreams could in no way relate to physical or logically possible waking reality. This implies some sort of very strange dualism.

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