I THINK therefore I AM

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richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:25 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;72248 wrote:
It means memories have associations with dreams. "Remember", I believe, is your discrepancy here, but I'm not certain if one can remember while dreaming.


Hi,

I read the article that you linked to. It seemed like it was all speculation. The kind that I do. That's OK with me.

None of the research, however, broaches the subject of how the mind switches states.

Rich
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:26 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;72247 wrote:
Descartes is said to be one of the colossal mind that ever walked the earth.

Am I am? , if I think I am?

I believe in the interconnectivity of all fundamental particles in the universe

Or cosmic mindful that matter

http://lusciousblue.com/content/binary/newborn.jpg


1) So you probably like the string theory then?
2)Where do you find these crazy images?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:27 pm
@richrf,
richrf;72253 wrote:
Hi,

I read the article that you linked to. It seemed like it was all speculation. The kind that I do. That's OK with me.

None of the research, however, broaches the subject of how the mind switches states.

Rich


Every article I've read regarding dreams has sounded like that.

I mean, it's clear we don't know yet. We are only speculating about many things regarding dreams. Of course, though, we can make some educated guesses. I think the idea that actual events have some correlation with dreams is a pretty good guess.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:27 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;72251 wrote:
The basic forms found in cubist paintings are found elsewhere. I might find the hues of the painting in the paint used to paint them or maybe I see a rock that has the color pattern of a patch of the painting made in Picasso's blue period. I might see a geometric form found in Matisse in nature, or I might see the pattern of the dress one of the figures is wearing on a piece of cloth in a store window. We abstract visual attributes, rearrange them and produce a painting. It still all comes from experience.

My point is that if an object can be conceivably constructed out of an amalgamation of sense quanta, then it is necessarily a waking object. So the claim that some object is present in a dream that has no waking analog is essentially this:'There are objects in dreams that have a form that cannot be related in any way to the logical possibilities that come out of waking experience', so that essentially you are telling me that the logical forms found in dreams could in no way relate to physical or logically possible waking reality. This implies some sort of very strange dualism.


I am saying that the evidence that dream images are just complexes of waking experience is a speculation, which does not have enough evidence to support it. It may be true. But it is, until we have some way of confirming it, merely a speculation. I am still not clear what this all has to do with remembering waking life. I still doubt that we remember anything when we are asleep and unconscious. Suppose that instead of being asleep, I am in a coma. Am I still remembering things?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:35 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;72251 wrote:
The basic forms found in cubist paintings are found elsewhere.


I am not talking about whether circles and lines are formed in nature - though in my dreams there aren't necessarily forms that I can describe. However, where in nature do you find this form?

http://pet-portraitartist.com/learning-to-paint-and-draw/painting-styles/images/cubism.jpg

Quote:
My point is that if an object can be conceivably constructed out of an amalgamation of sense quanta, then it is necessarily a waking object. So the claim that some object is present in a dream that has no waking analog is essentially this:'There are objects in dreams that have a form that cannot be related in any way to the logical possibilities that come out of waking experience', so that essentially you are telling me that the logical forms found in dreams could in no way relate to physical or logically possible waking reality. This implies some sort of very strange dualism.


Exactly. It is what I would call the creative mind. It conjures up stuff. For example, quanta acts as a wave and a particle. There is no analog in visual vocabulary to describe this dualism, as far as I have found. Mathematics are needed to describe it. I have dreams that I cannot describe, cannot draw, and can barely visualize.

Rich
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:36 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72257 wrote:
I am saying that the evidence that dream images are just complexes of waking experience is a speculation, which does not have enough evidence to support it. It may be true. But it is, until we have some way of confirming it, merely a speculation. I am still not clear what this all has to do with remembering waking life. I still doubt that we remember anything when we are asleep and unconscious. Suppose that instead of being asleep, I am in a coma. Am I still remembering things?


I'm not really sure what your saying here. Acouple of things might clarify this for me.

1) Do you agree that someone can have a fairly accurate memory of their dream?

2)Are you proposing that there could be some sense that is present only in dreams, and that we have no waking access to this sense?

3)Are you proposing that a mental object that is in a dream is not of the same nature as an object of your imagination is?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72257 wrote:
I am saying that the evidence that dream images are just complexes of waking experience is a speculation, which does not have enough evidence to support it. It may be true. But it is, until we have some way of confirming it, merely a speculation. I am still not clear what this all has to do with remembering waking life. I still doubt that we remember anything when we are asleep and unconscious. Suppose that instead of being asleep, I am in a coma. Am I still remembering things?


Yes. I agree. When I am asleep, I do not remember anything of my waking life. There is no connection to the awake state that I can remember while I am awake. It is a totally separate world. At times, it would be nice to remember that I was asleep, so that I could wake up. Smile However, I wake up when I wake up - and I do not know how this happens.

Rich
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:42 pm
@richrf,
richrf;72262 wrote:
I am not talking about whether circles and lines are formed in nature - though in my dreams there aren't necessarily forms that I can describe. However, where in nature do you find this form?

http://pet-portraitartist.com/learning-to-paint-and-draw/painting-styles/images/cubism.jpg




Would you be convinced if I made a fairly exact replica of that painting out of magazine clippings? All of those parts would have been found elsewhere, and they would have formed the image above. There would be certain material attributes that are different of course, but at that point it would be conceivable(of course this is most certainly not what happened) that the artist could have seen the newspaper clipping picture in his mind that was formed out of his memories of certain parts of magazines and news papers he has seen during the course of his life, and simply painted it.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 07:52 pm
@richrf,
There has never once been a time in my life that I didn't know who I was in a dream. I might be in the most fantastical and alien circumstance -- but it's always been me. And if I had parents in the dream, it's always been my parents and I've known them to be my parents.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:13 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;72270 wrote:
There has never once been a time in my life that I didn't know who I was in a dream. I might be in the most fantastical and alien circumstance -- but it's always been me. And if I had parents in the dream, it's always been my parents and I've known them to be my parents.


Well, that is fine. What does that show about other people?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:13 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;72270 wrote:
There has never once been a time in my life that I didn't know who I was in a dream. I might be in the most fantastical and alien circumstance -- but it's always been me. And if I had parents in the dream, it's always been my parents and I've known them to be my parents.


I too recognize Self in my dreams, but it is a sense of self that is definitely different from one that I am awake. There is no sense of solidness, of senses, of time, space, age, etc. These are the qualities and attributes I am talking about. I like observing these things.

Yes, insofar as my parents are concerned, they will be there from time to time. But again, they are deceased, and I see them as with me (my Self). Ditto for my brothers sometimes. But in all cases, the sense of them are much, much different than when I am awake. So I ask a very simple, but maybe too subtle, question. Why these different states if it is exactly the same MIND?

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:24 pm
@richrf,
kennethamy;72282 wrote:
Well, that is fine. What does that show about other people?
All it takes is one positive example to disprove a negative assertion, right?

richrf;72284 wrote:
So I ask a very simple, but maybe too subtle, question. Why these different states if it is exactly the same MIND?
We have different states even when we're awake, too. Ever have that dissociative state when you're driving, and you sort of come into yourself and realize that you've been completely zoning since god-knows-when? And you I'm sure know people who are labile and nasty when they're tired and stressed but kind and congenial when things are going smooth. What's up with that? How is it that their interface with others is so capricious, if not for a different state of mind?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:27 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;72292 wrote:
All it takes is one positive example to disprove a negative assertion, right?

We have different states even when we're awake, too. Ever have that dissociative state when you're driving, and you sort of come into yourself and realize that you've been completely zoning since god-knows-when? And you I'm sure know people who are labile and nasty when they're tired and stressed but kind and congenial when things are going smooth. What's up with that? How is it that their interface with others is so capricious, if not for a different state of mind?



About you. How about the other people? And, anyway, you don't remember all of your dreams. So how do you know that in each one of your dreams you knew it was you (whatever that means)?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:35 pm
@richrf,
I don't remember most of my dreams. But that doesn't matter, I do remember some, in fact there are some that I had recurrently when I was a little kid that I've remembered ever since.

How about what other people? The people I'm dreaming about, or what other people are dreaming in their own heads? Well, the ones I'm dreaming about are nothing but what I "perceive" of them -- and as for other people, I'd imagine someone can corroborate in their own right some things I've claimed.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:39 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;72292 wrote:
We have different states even when we're awake, too. Ever have that dissociative state when you're driving, and you sort of come into yourself and realize that you've been completely zoning since god-knows-when? And you I'm sure know people who are labile and nasty when they're tired and stressed but kind and congenial when things are going smooth. What's up with that? How is it that their interface with others is so capricious, if not for a different state of mind?


Yes. How and why? These, as d'Espagnat suggests, are the province of philosophers and metaphysics.

Rich
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:45 pm
@richrf,
I don't think (speaking generally) that metaphysical speculation is capable of providing believable answers about the sensory world. Freud and Jung showed that the only way to learn about how people's minds work is to sit them down and interview them. They created what some find to be artificial "topographies" of the mind, but the result per se isn't what matters the most. The import is that we understand that there are vying, conflicting, warring forces within people's minds, there are rational elements and irrational elements. How does metaphysical speculation tell you about your neighbor's internal conflicts?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:47 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;72247 wrote:
Descartes is said to be one of the colossal mind that ever walked the earth.

Am I am? , if I think I am?

I believe in the interconnectivity of all fundamental particles in the universe

Or cosmic mindful that matter

http://lusciousblue.com/content/binary/newborn.jpg


Yes. I have Alex Gray's book. It is fascinating. Here is one my favorites. I use it in my private lessons to illustrate the consciousness/energy/mass continuum of the human being.

http://www.sanguinevampire.net/kund_alex_gray.jpg/kund_alex_gray-full.jpg
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:54 pm
@richrf,
Rich you and I seem to be on the same wave band don't we?

Our bodies are just condensed vibrating energy fields?

Peace and light
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:55 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;72313 wrote:
Rich you and I seem to be on the same wave band don't we?

Our bodies are just condensed vibrating energy fields?

Peace and light


Smile Maybe it is so? :detective:

Rich
 
nameless
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:10 pm
@richrf,
The existence of the meditational (Zen) state refutes the 'cogito' statement completely. Renders it trivial.

On the other hand, if 'thought' is truly 'ego' (as it seems to be) then within the egoic (context) state of thought, exists the egoic 'self' (thought-image).

So his statement is both false, as in a meditative context our 'original face' (Conscious Perspective/Soul) shines forth.
Within an egoic/thought context, our egoically perceived (thought) 'self' exists.

Two very different 'selves' to which his "I" might relate.
 
 

 
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