So anyway... if we were indeed sharing a symbiotic relationship with this alien Lord, hypothetically speaking, would we have a right to know about it?

Get serious about this, Ghost. Don't try to pull everyone in. You know what you know. Right now, you should behave as if your government is committing treason against you. You should be enraged by this. You don't need to try every permutation of data, just to convince everyone. Common sense tells you all you need to know.

Don't rely on the "theory" of evolution. It's not required, and it makes things messier. (The likelyhood that some other race would evolve to look almost identical to us, in some other part of space, may be too much for the ignorant to accept.)

Don't use the assumption that they are studying us...that's very lame. Would one build a robot to study it? No, one would build a robot to carry his fat ass to the 7-Eleven.

Do be open to other views. When we talk about why we're here and why aliens are here, there is probably one accurate explanation...one truth. You are not using enough to work with, to find that. (You lack direction). Maybe you can gain that here.

Hang in there...

Ok, I'll make my opinion after. But whatever happened to the government keeping the "truth" of aliens kept from us? Why wouldn't they do something about this film?

Darwinian's theory is incomplete. Though the gradual natural selection I believe does affect some of the evolution that goes on, evolution has been found to be quite sudden, thus the distinctness between certain fossils. And this is not just in humans. So unless the aliens engineered this whole planet, this proof doesn't hold.

Let's backtrack a bit here, buddy.

This is bleeding obvious to you:


Yet, you say the significance is that we don't know:


Would you then say that if 10,000 people couldn't identify a model airplane I flew, it would be significant? If you answer yes, then I guess I see where you're coming from, and wholeheartedly disagree that it is significant. If you answer no, I have no idea where you're coming from at all.

It should have left a hard core of UFOs that deserve further study.

I'm not trying to pull people in, my theory is probably way off, I just want people to hear my theory and share their own theories on the subject, and I am quite angry, but it would be a risk to national security, in which case, they are free from the "Freedom of Information Act" and a half reasonable excuse, but I still feel the public should know.

Ghost, please describe how it would be a risk to national security, exactly. I don't think anyone would suggest that we force them to share their technology with us, and since the cat is already out of the bag, as it were, you can't say that anyone would have a particular advantage.

I never said they were like us, I said they changed the apes body a little, I did say they used their brains, what I was trying to say is, they used the model of their brain, they know what makes them "intelligent", they have a full understanding of how their mind works, and using this knowledge, they altered the apes brain, adding the mechanisms that give them "intelligence".

Okay, not bad. That is, iff "Earth DNA 1.0" is compatible at all with "Xenon Script 5.2"

Um, what if the robot became "intelligent" and started thinking for it's self? Would that not be something extraordinary, would it not be worth studying? They are not lazy, arrogant or violent, they lust for nothing but knowledge, unlike us (I'm assuming).

Let's stick to a single conclusion for now, with respect to each aspect. You said the ape intelligence was provided by the alien form. Since the fair assumption is that the alien could think for itself, it would be absolutely expected that Ape 2.0 could then think for itself. So, now your "study" hypothesis doesn't hold much water. More to the point, even adding the amount of genetic material required to turn apes into humans at the reproductive molecular level is a monumental genetically-engineered undertaking. To suggest that someone would go thru the trouble just to get some lab data is just silly. Have we ever care if the robots we create know we are watching them?

Well, they stopped doing live feeds after numerous UFO's were seen, they also tell every lie possible, no matter how rediculous, to debunk the footage.

Don't worry about the footage. There's already enough evidence to put these f#@ckers away for life, in a court of law. At least there's plenty to sue them for everything they own, including their "UFOs", in a class action civil case. You've got photographs, video footage, and eyewitness testimony from reputable citizens all over the globe. I'm not talking about hillbillies from the Smoky Mountains, I'm talking about high-ranking military officers and government officials from just about every industrialized nation in the world. Now, if the aliens would only genetically-engineer a single pair of nuts for themselves, just one sack, it would make our jobs alot easier.

Maybe, they engineered a few, well more than a few, and placed them around the world, letting them spread their genes throughout the population...

Ghost, please describe how it would be a risk to national security, exactly. I don't think anyone would suggest that we force them to share their technology with us, and since the cat is already out of the bag, as it were, you can't say that anyone would have a particular advantage.

Okay, not bad. That is, iff "Earth DNA 1.0" is compatible at all with "Xenon Script 5.2"

Let's stick to a single conclusion for now, with respect to each aspect. You said the ape intelligence was provided by the alien form. Since the fair assumption is that the alien could think for itself, it would be absolutely expected that Ape 2.0 could then think for itself. So, now your "study" hypothesis doesn't hold much water. More to the point, even adding the amount of genetic material required to turn apes into humans at the reproductive molecular level is a monumental genetically-engineered undertaking. To suggest that someone would go thru the trouble just to get some lab data is just silly. Have we ever care if the robots we create know we are watching them?

I find an interesting thread running through 'conspiracy theorists'. The 'government' (illuminati, neighbor, whoever...) is keeping a big secret from all the unwashed masses, yet, for some amazing reason (usually being 'very special', 'chosen') the theorist is 'in the know', unlike the stinky 'hoodwinked' hoards that remain ignorant of the deception. I'm feeling that there is a definite 'pathology' manifested here; not the science of learning about existence, but the 'science' of how to bolster a 'poor' ego; how to 'feel special' from the crowd and in one's own eyes. I'm not saying that such 'comfort food' is necessarily 'bad' or 'wrong', though, that seems to help explain the OP's shunning of scientific and logical criticism. Just wants to spread/bolster his (her?) feelings of 'specialness', not be 'sidetracked' by the 'reality' of others.
Well, thats my take anyway, not a discussion, but an observation. So much 'philosophical' discussion is rooted in the same 'emo-ego-mud'; quite poor 'soil' for philosophical flowers...

I think it would fall somewhere along the lines of the Government fearing invasion, and fearing that if they tell the public, they will go into a mass hysteria...or possibly just their greedy lust for power.

But, many, many Americans would insist that the government already fears invasion, or at least it better. Do you actually think the government would gain any street credibility by continuing the lie? [Rhetorical] And, what about greed or power would necessarily be affected by disclosure?


Ghost, your imaginations here are sloppy. This is the crux of your theory, in a way... showing a valid reason for the cover-up. You ought to handle it carefully. Right now, you're giving no support for these suppositions. This is important, and if it doesn't fit your theory, then remove it. Let it go. No big deal.


If you can't propose a way to justify secrecy, then you must either conclude that the secrecy is unjustified and work from there, or you must eliminate the point from your position.

Again, they are not combining anything, they are using there knowledge of how a brain works and computes, to "upgrade" the apes brain to version 2.0, as you say.

You are glossing over some fairly critical implied assumptions, and in the process, you are not allowing your own theory to be developed. If you imply important details, they better be given in a "language" that is agreed upon by you and your opponent. Otherwise, you waste time, and it's rarely for good reason.


You imply that the alien form would fully understand recombinant DNA technology. Fine. But then, you also imply that it's a snap of the fingers to make Ape 2.0. This is where your reasoning crumbles a little.


On earth, you may be hard-pressed to find a single researcher who agrees that it would be a snap of the fingers. Now, with evidence that it is a complex process, what supports your assumption that it would be a snap for anyone else? You can't use the guess that if they had the technology to travel accross great distances at tremendous speeds then they ought to be able to easily make new species; because as far as we know on earth, those are dramatically unrelated technologies. More importantly though, your theory hasn't established that they have the travel technology either.


However, it may very well be a snap for the aliens, hypothetically. But, that would lead to the conclusion that they created ALL life here, not just bits and pieces, here and there. It makes more sense that this earth was indeed terra-formed by an external agency, one way or another. That's a realistic objective.


In ANY case, most "committees" act toward an objective. There is plenty of support for that statement, wherever you look. So, I don't see anything to support the idea that the aliens would be doing this for fun, in favor over a concrete OBJECTIVE. Sure, the scope of some objective may not be evident yet. But don't just offer that claim of experimental study without explaining what the overall objective might be, at the expense of a more likely scenario. That's poor method. What is the objective that includes determining if they can make smart apes? And, why would they travel halfway accross the galaxy just to do that?


Ghost, you can't simply play the "magic" card whenever you feel like it. You have a significant argument under develpment here. Treat it with respect, if you want it to be taken seriously.

I would assume we do not care if robots are watching us because we know they are not self-aware yet, so stop using this robot analogy, it really doesn't make sense. I'm sure if they did become self-aware, we would certaintly be very interested in anything they were thinking or doing.

I said we don't care if the robots KNOW we are watching THEM. The point is, if the aliens where conducting an experiment, what could you conclude if the aliens also chose to remain hidden? (Be careful how you answer this one.)


By the way, did you notice I deleted the rest of your paragraph from this section? That's because we should all agree that you never said any of that. It's completely unnecessary, and it induces a new argument that distracts from your workable theory. I have to admit some of it was interesting. You had me at Mother Nature. Remember, save the "magic" card until after the end.

Well, you sir/ma'am, act like you can read minds, and automatically make bias assumptions based on your biased views, I do not consider those who think Aliens aren't visiting Earth are "stinky 'hoodwinks'", I respect them and their opinions, just like I do every other person. I am not trying to make myself feel better, increase my ego, or feel more special than others, that is absolutely the last thing I will ever do, if anything, the existence of Aliens, and them visiting Earth, but the Government deceiving us about it, makes people feel less insignificant in the universe, we like to think we are in the center of the universe, like we have importance and meaningful purposes in life, I feel none of those things, I do not rely on meaning and pride to make myself feel important, I just don't feel more important then anyone else on Earth, pride, arrogance, and selfishness, are why the world is in such a terrible state, why we have wars, and murders. I feel hurt, angry, and deceived, it takes away my hope for human kind, and it makes me feel like the subject is worth hard, scientific analysis, in the hopes of relieving to the public, the truth, to give us all, equality, and let us "enjoy the fruits of our evolution", to better the quality of life and living standards, and just make the world a better place overall. Are you sure you are not making your self feel more important, more significant, and more purposeful, by denying what seems so clear to most of the world? Oh, and if you feel like arguing the existence of UFO's, go to my other thread, "so you think we are alone in this infinite universe", in the science section, hasn't had any replies for a while. I have recently put forward the NASA footage, had a short argument about it, and have yet to hear from anyone who can wiggle their way out of my reasoning. The footage makes it more than clear, it is the "hard evidence" that all the skeptics ask for, it is there, it has been analyzed by experts even, and they cannot explain it.

Well said, Ghost. But, if anyone says anything that doesn't apply to the argument, then just ignore it. If something applies then address it. We're talking about things that many people don't have a place for, in their head. That's when they splinter, or regress to the only thing they know. This tendency appears to be human nature. Just forgive them and move on.

Looking to hearing from you all.

You said that the lord requires methane. So firstly, why does it need to create plant life when plant life is required for heterotrophs to even evolve. And why would we have plant life that has symbiotic relationships with fungi and microbes that allow chemical reactions that use methane, depleting it.

your first question: I don't understand what you mean. Could you please clarify?

your second question: I couldn't answer that without more information. My guess is that it depends on what part of the globe that the chemical reaction occurs, and what fraction of the atmosphere's "would-be" methane is being consumed, and what the products are.

MITech, in biology you learn that mitochondria are essential for cellular respiration.

First Question: Why does it (alien race) need to create plant life when plant life is required for heterotrophs to even evolve.

This alien race I am assuming is mobile, and therefore one can assume they are also heterotrophs, or you know what... who cares.. the point is why create life without a reason? Or do these aliens have reason?

Why does anyone create anything? to use it.

Second Question: And why would we have plant life that has symbiotic relationships with fungi and microbes that allow chemical reactions that use methane, depleting it.

Well, you see, if we have an alien race which requires methane, then why would it allow the "artificial" plant life they create to be symbiotic with microbes and fungi which use up methane? I know it was just an example you were giving, not any importance.

Aliens clearly don't use us unless it's for some very twisted psychological experiment in which they'd be examining our social handle on infalsifiable claims, and trying to understand why us humans are so poor at doing so. You know... I'd buy that. It's sort of like two infalsifiables canceling each other out, leaving something reasonable.

Just think of it in terms of the Matrix

But, many, many Americans would insist that the government already fears invasion, or at least it better. Do you actually think the government would gain any street credibility by continuing the lie? [Rhetorical] And, what about greed or power would necessarily be affected by disclosure?

You are glossing over some fairly critical implied assumptions, and in the process, you are not allowing your own theory to be developed. If you imply important details, they better be given in a "language" that is agreed upon by you and your opponent. Otherwise, you waste time, and it's rarely for good reason.
You imply that the alien form would fully understand recombinant DNA technology. Fine. But then, you also imply that it's a snap of the fingers to make Ape 2.0. This is where your reasoning crumbles a little.

On earth, you may be hard-pressed to find a single researcher who agrees that it would be a snap of the fingers. Now, with evidence that it is a complex process, what supports your assumption that it would be a snap for anyone else? You can't use the guess that if they had the technology to travel accross great distances at tremendous speeds then they ought to be able to easily make new species; because as far as we know on earth, those are dramatically unrelated technologies. More importantly though, your theory hasn't established that they have the travel technology either.

However, it may very well be a snap for the aliens, hypothetically. But, that would lead to the conclusion that they created ALL life here, not just bits and pieces, here and there. It makes more sense that this earth was indeed terra-formed by an external agency, one way or another. That's a realistic objective.

In ANY case, most "committees" act toward an objective. There is plenty of support for that statement, wherever you look. So, I don't see anything to support the idea that the aliens would be doing this for fun, in favor over a concrete OBJECTIVE. Sure, the scope of some objective may not be evident yet. But don't just offer that claim of experimental study without explaining what the overall objective might be, at the expense of a more likely scenario. That's poor method. What is the objective that includes determining if they can make smart apes? And, why would they travel halfway accross the galaxy just to do that?

I said we don't care if the robots KNOW we are watching THEM. The point is, if the aliens where conducting an experiment, what could you conclude if the aliens also chose to remain hidden? (Be careful how you answer this one.)

By the way, did you notice I deleted the rest of your paragraph from this section? That's because we should all agree that you never said any of that. It's completely unnecessary, and it induces a new argument that distracts from your workable theory. I have to admit some of it was interesting. You had me at Mother Nature. Remember, save the "magic" card until after the end.

Alrighty, Ghost! This is getting good. And, it's gra-a-adually starting to solidify. Keep it up.

Aliens clearly don't use us unless it's for some very twisted psychological experiment in which they'd be examining our social handle on infalsifiable claims, and trying to understand why us humans are so poor at doing so. You know... I'd buy that. It's sort of like two infalsifiables canceling each other out, leaving something reasonable.

So Ghost, what's the theory now, as I'm assuming it's been changed.

We do find 'life' everywhere we look!!!
I feel that your 'beliefs' will be justified in 'some' fashion.
Keep the 'faith', and your eyes open!
Peace

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless
We do find 'life' everywhere we look!!!
I feel that your 'beliefs' will be justified in 'some' fashion.
Keep the 'faith', and your eyes open!
Peace

A nice change in attitude...not sure why...

but it was sort of off topic, not that I'm worried.

I noticed you posted it in my other thread, yes, it is more appropriate there.

Oh, and you people are starting to get off topic, please stay on track...:a-ok:

I think that if you put on your tinfoil helmet and really try, you can find application of my post to your topic. (Ex; I talked about 'life' found everywhere and you are talking about 'life' coming from 'somewheres else'... 'reaffirming'...)
If it's really meaningless to you, then its fine that you are simply left feeling all warm and fuzzy...

Don't fret, I'm outta here.
See ya..
Peace