Why do you not?

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Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 07:07 pm
Why do you not commit suicide?

Now the question comes from Dr Viktor. E. Frankl as he asks his patients who suffer from this or that torment, but aside from the opposite (but same), why do you live? I think the question 'Why do you not commit suicide?' is askable/answerable for or by anyone who has a grasp or understanding upon what suicide (understanding of or think they did do will understand) is to them.
So, why do you not commit suicide?
when you have 'nothing to lose except his ridiculously naked life'.

A little help for answering;
a'central theme of extentialism:
'to live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffering.
If there is a purpose in life at all, there must be purpose in suffering and in dying. But no man can tell another what this purpose is. each must find out for himself, and must accept the responsibility that his answer prescribes' Gordon. W. Allport.
In his suicide or life?

'He who has a why to live can bear with almost any how' Nietzsche
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 12:51 am
@sometime sun,
A personal answer. My wife and my books seem to be on this side of the grave.
 
de budding
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:29 am
@Reconstructo,
[CENTER]Why do I not?
[/CENTER]

(On first consideration) - Because I don't feel compelled to:

The will of my mind - and therefore me - is to live. And who am I to argue with my mind, it knows way better than I do what is good for me.

However, that said, there was a time (mid to late teens) when I would have said: the only reason I do not is because of the impact it would have on my family, girlfriend, friends etc... That is not to say I was suicidal or depressed; I was just of the rationale that if my friends and relatives (or shall I say 'social ties') weren't here there wouldn't be much to live for.

Now I'm a bit older and my mind has been somewhat warped by the likes of you philosophy forum members, Nietzsche, Hume and literature in general, I would say beauty is everywhere, especially in the ugly; I am only an annoying child getting in the way as I try to influence my mind and the decision it makes; and that, Social Ties or no, death would be giving up my esteemed position of observer of beauty.

So, I guess I'll hang around, if only because my mind seems to think it's best for me, and because I enjoy looking at things.

Without suffering and hardship there is no measure of happiness and success.

Regards,
Dan.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 05:44 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;108475 wrote:
A personal answer. My wife and my books seem to be on this side of the grave.


Who is to say your wife and your books aren't there after the grave?

---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 11:46 AM ----------

Dont forget answering this question could be a celebration.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 07:11 am
@sometime sun,
Dostoevsky's Underground Man: "I refuse out of spite."
I can't remember if he ever gave that as his reason for not killing himself or just everything else.
 
jes phil
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 10:01 am
@sometime sun,
A flip answer -- because I have other things planned. Can I pencil you in for next Thursday?

A not so flip answer -- because this is the only truly known or proven existence. At least in the sense of our senses. We know we are here now (yes, we might be the mental manifestations of an alien intelligence, but bear with me here, please) or at least we think we are, whereas for a hypothetical afterlife we don't know so much.

Hence, I suppose, I'm not committing suicide because I'm too chicken to experiment and see if there's anything on the other side of existence.

Oh and because it would leave an awful mess.
 
Camerama
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 12:33 pm
@sometime sun,
Life is an end in itself
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 04:44 pm
@jes phil,
jes;108536 wrote:
A flip answer -- because I have other things planned. Can I pencil you in for next Thursday?

:lol:THANK YOU


JES;108536 wrote:

Oh and because it would leave an awful mess.


So is this that there will inevitably always be mess, or do you have a messy death in mind?

---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 10:49 PM ----------

Camerama;108550 wrote:
Life is an end in itself


Please elaborate.
 
Camerama
 
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 11:31 pm
@sometime sun,
Haha alright. First off, I will say i am writing this for my self. I am not trying to impose any morals or beliefs on anyone BUT if i do come across arrogant or presumptuous, i apologize in advance. Any "is or musts" thrown around are for clarity, not attacking any ideas.

I believe that life is an end in itself.
My(long, disorganized, mystic) Premise:
1.) God is not suceptible to empirical inquiry, deductive logic, sensory perception(ive never seen him at least) or any variant of reason.
2.) Reason is the shovel for all human knowledge.(Our only means of achieving knowledge)
3.) God isn't in any hole(Reason can't be ascribed to him)
4.) Religion imposes morals on its adherents(Ten Commandments or whatever)
5.) I can't live my life based on an entity(that cannot even be an entity) and adhering to "his"(or her) morals/values/standards/what have you.
6.) I live my life based on my deductions, my convictions, my knowledge, gained from MY use of reason, not blind(or nearsighted) faith.
7.) If god wants to damn me for eternity(whatever that is) for finding heaven on earth, using a code of morals grounded in reality rather than fantasy, then i guess i'm effed.(And he ain't so benevolent.)

Im not saying he doesnt exist so spare me the piety
ALTERNATIVE(societal)
1.) We live in a society
2.) Society(or at least our narrow minded society) has laws!
3.) Laws tell you what you can and can't do(inhibit absolute freedom)
4.) Our govt. and its legislation impose values(commercial, moral, etc.) on citizens
bad exs. 1.)Gun Laws(discourage gun ownership)
2.) Alcohol Age(discourages intoxication)
5.) My values will inevitably conflict with society's(especially liberals)
6.) I do not wish to be a means to an end of society.

End Product: My life is an end in itself, with happiness my purpose.

Post Script: i will gladly elaborate on any of this if you request.
 
prothero
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 01:07 am
@sometime sun,
Death is (I think) the end of experience. I enjoy experience.
Life is both beautiful and tragic. I do not fear death the thought just makes me sad.
 
de budding
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 02:30 am
@sometime sun,
"Oh and because it would leave an awful mess." (jes)

In a nut shell or what.

"So is this that there will inevitably always be mess, or do you have a messy death in mind?" (sometime sun)

There will usually be mess, albeit social, emotional, physical etc. Worse case scenario: Some one else decides to kick-the-bucket because you have; double the mess!

Dan.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 03:28 am
@sometime sun,
I think once the body becomes a burden, a peaceful death at a time of one's own choosing is justifiable, even noble in its way. To face death, and to choose it in what you regard its proper season.
 
de budding
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:12 am
@Reconstructo,
[QUOTE=Reconstructo;108764]I think once the body becomes a burden, a peaceful death at a time of one's own choosing is justifiable, even noble in its way. To face death, and to choose it in what you regard its proper season.[/QUOTE]

I think that sounds agreeable provided there's no mess. You can not clean up after yourself if you're dead.

But, I think it your write to say that it can be a positive thing. I think the Samurai's and there harakiri/seppuku (or whatever their honorable suicide is called) reflect this nicely. For them shame and failure are justifiable means for suicide. That is, honorable suicide.

Regardless, I think - in practical terms - you would have to be either very brave or very out of your mind to commit The Act.

Regards,
Dan.
 
jes phil
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 02:20 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;108604 wrote:
:lol:THANK YOU




So is this that there will inevitably always be mess, or do you have a messy death in mind?

---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 10:49 PM ----------



Please elaborate.


Mess -- I suspect that even "neat" deaths leave messes, er, bodily fluids, and no I will not draw you a picture. But anyway I'm too chicken for shotguns and the like, plus I'd be terrified I'd miss or something. If I had to do the deed, I s'pect it'd be the old running car in the garage trick.

But also other messes. A financial mess (I'm the one in the relationship who keeps the books, so I know how to do them). An emotional mess (my poor parents and husband!). An artistic mess, too (all that stuff I'm in the middle of writing but haven't quite finished).
 
RDanneskjld
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 02:38 pm
@sometime sun,
To put it simply I enjoy my life! It doesnt get much more complicated than that. I would probably say that life is probably absurd and meaningless but that doesnt prevent me from being happy. To quote Camus 'It would be a mistake to say that happiness necessarily springs from the absurd. Discovery. It happens as well that the felling of the absurd springs from happiness'
 
memester
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 12:58 pm
@prothero,
prothero;108698 wrote:
Death is (I think) the end of experience. I enjoy experience.
Life is both beautiful and tragic. I do not fear death the thought just makes me sad.
the thought of being crushed and trapped by an earthquake or mine disaster makes me a tad fearful. death by very very slow asphyxiation...or dentist. fearful. marathon fearful.
 
Fischer
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 02:42 pm
@prothero,
1. As far as I know, this is the only chance I'll have to experience this life (or anything else for that matter). Why give up that opportunity? 2. The only good reason that I, personally, could come up with to commit suicide would be extreme curiosity. Therein lies one of my greatest weaknesses as a human being, though: impatience.
 
The Outsider
 
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 03:55 pm
@sometime sun,
The simple answer is to be happy. Or, rather, to try to be happy. And all I really mean by that is to live in accordance with one's own will. Which is undeniable, I think. Can one deny their own will? I don't understand how. Obviously, though, by living according to their will, some have come to the point of ending their lives. For these people, they believed their greatest happiness (or lack of suffering) lie in death. Personally, I am still quite skeptical of that, and so I live.

On a broader note, given that by living (by which I include all intentional actions, e.g. suicide) we aim for happiness, the question is why be happy? I do not have an answer for that. My thought is that happiness is apathetic of suffering. Which allows happiness to be an end in itself. Whatever that means.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 07:20 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;108682 wrote:
Haha alright. First off, I will say i am writing this for my self. I am not trying to impose any morals or beliefs on anyone BUT if i do come across arrogant or presumptuous, i apologize in advance. Any "is or musts" thrown around are for clarity, not attacking any ideas.

Why should it bother you if you are being a true concern toward yourself?

Camerama;108682 wrote:

I believe that life is an end in itself.
My(long, disorganized, mystic) Premise:
1.) God is not suceptible to empirical inquiry, deductive logic, sensory perception(ive never seen him at least) or any variant of reason.
2.) Reason is the shovel for all human knowledge.(Our only means of achieving knowledge)
3.) God isn't in any hole(Reason can't be ascribed to him)
4.) Religion imposes morals on its adherents(Ten Commandments or whatever)
5.) I can't live my life based on an entity(that cannot even be an entity) and adhering to "his"(or her) morals/values/standards/what have you.
6.) I live my life based on my deductions, my convictions, my knowledge, gained from MY use of reason, not blind(or nearsighted) faith.
7.) If god wants to damn me for eternity(whatever that is) for finding heaven on earth, using a code of morals grounded in reality rather than fantasy, then i guess i'm effed.(And he ain't so benevolent.)

Not as disorganised as myslef.
1.) Empirical; 1 based on experiment, observation, or experience, rather than on theory (all depends on how you see it) 2 regarding experiment and observation as more important than scientific law. From Greek 'empeiria' experience.
Maybe not suceptible, but certainly measurable, if even just pretending to not find God where God is.
You may never have seen 'him' but you can kbnow that God is there, sensory, you sense It.
2.) Reason is ondeed as you describe a shovel, however we dont all need to dig to know (truth). And many truths are not reasonable, (at least the way i sense them).
Knowledge is achievment, please elaborate on it reason being the only action and or implement that can bring knowledge.
Are we born with knowledge, the capasity to know, are we ever with out knowledge or reason? (for being)
And knowledge is often gift, is gift achievment?
3.) No God isn't in any hole, but the reason that it was dug for us to get outof, for us as much as for 'him' hmmm?
4.) Religion in it' sbest form, is a structure inquiry of all and adepts alike, it asks of the parishioners rather than tells, you dont honestly think people are so stupid that they dont know what is good to do and what is bad to do? People dont just do it because they are told, they do it because it makes sense. It is reasonable. It is truthful.
The question would be, does it ask us somethihng we already know? (Ought and should on stand by.)
Nothing can impose upon you better than yourself.
Entity; Something that has a physical existence, as opposed to a quality or mood 2 the essential nature (of something) 3 philos, the fact or quality of existing. From Latin 'entitas' from 'ens', thing that exists.
Agreed cannot be other than all, or, else.
It is, or it is not.
5.)Again the way you live your life is your choice, of your choosing, hear them and choose, dont dismiss before inquiry, dont dismiss on the basis that someone is 'telling' you something. They may just be reasonable and correct answers.
6.) Deductions, your inquirys.
Convictions, your beliefs.
Knowledge, your experiences.
Gained from your use of reason, or is that understanding? (method of)
7.)Why would 'god' want to damn you? especially for eternity?

No God is not benevolent (if not the reaosn for it) that is what is required of us.
We have to teach God good as well learn what God already knows to have goodness about it.
We must teach our benevolence for God to believe in us.
We have to show meticulously our intentions and actions, heavenly, moraly, realistically, (which all measn we must learn/live it, love it,) teach it tell it.
Hope i didn't spare you to much piety there?Very Happy
Piety is a form of reason if not reasoning.

Camerama;108682 wrote:

Im not saying he doesnt exist so spare me the piety
ALTERNATIVE(societal)
1.) We live in a society
2.) Society(or at least our narrow minded society) has laws!
3.) Laws tell you what you can and can't do(inhibit absolute freedom)
4.) Our govt. and its legislation impose values(commercial, moral, etc.) on citizens
bad exs. 1.)Gun Laws(discourage gun ownership)
2.) Alcohol Age(discourages intoxication)
5.) My values will inevitably conflict with society's(especially liberals)
6.) I do not wish to be a means to an end of society.

Your values will inevitably reach society if they are the most reasonable and popularly understandable. (this could be question as much a statement)
'6.) I do not wish to be a means to an end of society' Elaborate on that please
Camerama;108682 wrote:

End Product: My life is an end in itself, with happiness my purpose.

Post Script: i will gladly elaborate on any of this if you request.

Your end product, is the process over purpose or the process that achieves your purpose.
Which is a good one.
But what is happiness to or with you?
Is it the search or what is found? (for a start)
Thanks for your time

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:32 AM ----------

prothero;108698 wrote:
Death is (I think) the end of experience. I enjoy experience.
Life is both beautiful and tragic. I do not fear death the thought just makes me sad.

Now imagine for those who also do not fear death but are glad for it, and the ever opportunity they have had.

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:36 AM ----------

de_budding;108738 wrote:
"Oh and because it would leave an awful mess." (jes)

In a nut shell or what.

"So is this that there will inevitably always be mess, or do you have a messy death in mind?" (sometime sun)

There will usually be mess, albeit social, emotional, physical etc. Worse case scenario: Some one else decides to kick-the-bucket because you have; double the mess!

Dan.


Not one death is without any mess, it is how we who are left to clean up is what we can learn grow and even celebrate that is our own lagacy.

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:40 AM ----------

jes;108939 wrote:
Mess -- If I had to do the deed,

.


Now there is a nutshell worth exploring.
Emphasis on the 'had'.

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:44 AM ----------

R.Danneskjöld;108941 wrote:
To put it simply I enjoy my life! It doesnt get much more complicated than that. I would probably say that life is probably absurd and meaningless but that doesnt prevent me from being happy. To quote Camus 'It would be a mistake to say that happiness necessarily springs from the absurd. Discovery. It happens as well that the felling of the absurd springs from happiness'


Again, can one ever enjoy their death?
An example of how happiness is not contingent upon inevitability but more upon probability.

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:47 AM ----------

memester;109856 wrote:
the thought of being crushed and trapped by an earthquake or mine disaster makes me a tad fearful. death by very very slow asphyxiation...or dentist. fearful. marathon fearful.

But that would not be by your choice, so is death by choice less fearful and a good reason to exact upon the self?

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 01:57 AM ----------

Fischer;109876 wrote:
1. As far as I know, this is the only chance I'll have to experience this life (or anything else for that matter). Why give up that opportunity? 2. The only good reason that I, personally, could come up with to commit suicide would be extreme curiosity. Therein lies one of my greatest weaknesses as a human being, though: impatience.


'As far as you know', i like a man who can admit his ignorances. This is good for the reason that you have not yet decided been proven ever expect an answer but upon launch.
Now what if you had found this solvancy, what if you knew you could die and it would not matter, matter beacause there is more, or no more to contend with? What if you knew something that gave you the absolution that only death knows what the gift is but you are convinced of therefore in possession of truth?
But you are not curious enough to push for something you will find your inevitability in at some spot in your future, life and solution.
Is it impatience that some might go on before insisted? (although the act is nothing but insistence of self), good question.
Why wait?
But why not? is surely the fuller answer.

---------- Post added 12-12-2009 at 02:05 AM ----------

The Outsider;109892 wrote:
The simple answer is to be happy. Or, rather, to try to be happy. And all I really mean by that is to live in accordance with one's own will. Which is undeniable, I think. Can one deny their own will? I don't understand how. Obviously, though, by living according to their will, some have come to the point of ending their lives. For these people, they believed their greatest happiness (or lack of suffering) lie in death. Personally, I am still quite skeptical of that, and so I live.

On a broader note, given that by living (by which I include all intentional actions, e.g. suicide) we aim for happiness, the question is why be happy? I do not have an answer for that. My thought is that happiness is apathetic of suffering. Which allows happiness to be an end in itself. Whatever that means.

Not yet happy , not yet dead,
you have not there, found it yet.

Dont get the 'apathetic of suffering' bit. Please elaborate.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 08:05 am
@sometime sun,
at the moment i really would like to, since the quote i wrote was lost
why dont i ALWAYS copy and past? :BRB:

---------- Post added 12-13-2009 at 07:53 PM ----------

hello sometime-
I meant to answer this a long time ago but I had to get depressed enough first. this time of year is so conducive to depression, isnt it?I actually find death really funny. examples:
Suicide is man's way of telling God, "You can't fire me - I quit." Bill Maher
"If this is dying, I don't think much of it." Lytton Strachey (1880-1932), British writer
"I did not get my Spaghetti-O's, I got spaghetti. I want the press to know this."Thomas J. Grasso, executed 1995.

or I could say, "i am working on it, but I tend to procrastinate." or maybe I could say "been there, done that..." because the truth is, when I was 14 years old I did try to commit suicide. and in spite of the fact that I failed, I have in fact experienced a good part of what it means. I had intended to do a blog on this subject, because I feel there are things I might say that would have meaning for some people who may have lost a loved one or not been able to see it coming or wish they could have prevented it.

in my case, I would have to say that I suffered from a rather serious mental imbalance for the greater part of my life until the age of 26. (haha-some people think I do NOW, but the fact is once you have been crazy and are able to recognize it, you will always know sooner or later when you are losing it.) at that time there was a great change, call it a neurological adjustment for want of being able to identity whatever it was, and from that point on I was absolutely certain that I would never again choose to give up my life. slowly as the years went on, I found myself becoming aware of various conditions that might make it acceptable as an alternative. and following on through in life and decade after decade of interminable experience and sorrow after uncountable sorrow, I am beginning to contemplate the idea once more. in fact, I might choose to take my own life simply because it seems my health is so good that I will never die...suicide is a safety valve for those who have conviction that their individual identity is an illusion or epiphenomenon and will not survive their body.

I have noticed that everyone who has answered the question here, "why do you not...?" is happy. hell, that is a no-brainer. if I was happy I too would have reasons to NOT. so can anyone give reasons why an unhappy person would 'not'?

no, that doesnt really matter. because death will surely come sooner or later anyway. the better question is, while we are alive, how to be happy? all I have been able to manage so far is at times enjoying being miserable. but it is becoming redundant...
 
 

 
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