Truth is a White Lie

@Reconstructo,

Ken,

I’m sorry Ken. But I see a reply like “So what,” is the battle cry of a dim wit. I know you are capable of more. Aren’t you? : ^ (

Because so many people insist upon the ‘Truth’ as being one thing, as something written in the sky by the finger of God, and never to be erased, the human race is condemned (to some extent), to go through life wearing blinders, neither looking to the left, nor looking to the right.

We therefore rely (heavily) upon our more creative types, to take off those blinders for us.

I believe this type of individual is genetically programmed into our species, in order to keep us vital and growing as a species. In order to keep us adapting to the constant changes required in this lifetime, and to contribute to the survival of our species. In other words, we need the new, we need the inventive, and we require innovation. It is not a fluke.

I have heard it said (somewhere) that one of the reasons that certain (well adapted) cultures went into extinction is, that they got too comfortable (too well adapted) with their old ways, their old thoughts, and stopped adapting. They lost their edge.

S9

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 09:32 AM ----------

Reconstructo,

We paint with words in order to form new picture, to form a new possibility, all of the time. Everything that is said, which is both fresh and new is merely a rediscription of some sort, or a bringing together of diverse things that previously seemed separate, like neuropsychology. I believe this is an imperative, simply because we do not live in a vacuum.

So that pro and con becomes the 2 feet by which intellect walks… (Thesis/Antithesis/Synthesis) (left foot forward, right foot forward, and hop.)

And:

No ONE TRUTH, is not the same thing as ‘no truth.’

And:

Words can act like sandpaper, to smooth off the rough edges of our earlier thinking.

No worry my friend. We people out here in cyber-land will willingly volunteer to be your Anti-Reconstructo. You may grow to regret this at some point, like Sartre, who said, “Hell is other people.”
; ^ )

Truth is the tool of the scoundrel; after all, it is all how you use it. Is it not?

Truth seems to be an all-purpose tool.

Care to share some favorite wisdom from Rorty?

S9

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;114586 wrote:

We can re-describe "truth" just as we can redescribe anything else. We can use words to shift the meaning of words. We persuade by means of re-description. Copernicus re-described the solar system. Obama re-described the USA. I'm redescribing redescription.

No reason to get excited; the thief he kindly spoke, for there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke, and you and I have been through that, and this is not our fate, so let us not speak falsely now, the hour is growing late...

I love these sorts of gospel stories on a sunday morn...

The point is that it is a luxury only the rich can enjoy- to define truth and reality as they desire... The reason truth is a form that has existed for nearly three thousand years of human history, and likely far longer is that people find the facts absolutely essential to their continued existence...The rich can feel secure enough to spin the truth like a top...All the rest of us are ground under its cruel axis...

@Fido,

Fido;114652 wrote:

No reason to get excited; the thief he kindly spoke, for there are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke, and you and I have been through that, and this is not our fate, so let us not speak falsely now, the hour is growing late...

I love these sorts of gospel stories on a sunday morn...

The point is that it is a luxury only the rich can enjoy- to define truth and reality as they desire... The reason truth is a form that has existed for nearly three thousand years of human history, and likely far longer is that people find the facts absolutely essential to their continued existence...The rich can feel secure enough to spin the truth like a top...All the rest of us are ground under its cruel axis...

Well, I'm rich by third-world standards, I guess, but quite poor by American standards. I just don't want most the products on sale enough to sell my time for them. I'm fed by enormous corporations and clothed by China in 2 dollar t-shirts. I'm a germ on the skin of a blue whale. It's exactly because I see the power of the rich that I don't worry much about politics. Humans will sell freedom for security 9 times out of 10. Look around. How many even care about justice? The people I see are more concerned with their hairstyle or the dress they will wear to some party. Sure, they often have a bumper sticker or two, but that is one more form of fashion. Humans are selfish. Their altruism is usually another indulgence.

Your post is an example of my post. You redescribe redescritiption as an unjust indulgence of the rich, etc. This is how we operate. We persuade by means of redescription.

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 07:58 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;114624 wrote:

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 09:32 AM

Very nice. I have thought of pro and con as two arms. Philosophy is rife with analogy/metaphor and this is a good thing. This is the way we really think, analogically, and etymology reveals this. Yeats wrote a book called A Vision that uses a spiral for human mental progress. We go around in circles and climb simultaneously. This is a twist on the left/right thing.

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 08:02 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;114624 wrote:

No ONE TRUTH, is not the same thing as 'no truth.'

No one truth means in its funny way that there is only one truth, and also on truth. Bill conceives truth as single, and for him it is. Jim rejects all truth. For him truth is a dead word. Harry says "no one truth does not mean no truth at all," and this is perhaps a superior view to the first two.

For me, "truth" is a word. In non-philosophical situations, I will use it like anyone else (correspondence theory). I would also use capital Truth in a mystic sense if talking to the right person. I think we humans tend to custom-fit our sentences/diction to our listener. This forum is tricky. We have to write for a more or less general audience.

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 08:07 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;114624 wrote:

Truth is the tool of the scoundrel; after all, it is all how you use it. Is it not?
Truth seems to be an all-purpose tool.

Con-men could probably write some good books on foolosophy. A person's "truth" is like their eyes. We chase projections over cliffs. We put really money down for illusions. Not you and I so much, I wouldn't think. But many indeed waste their blood, time, and money on crap. Of course that's just my "truth." Perhaps the Nike swoosh is fetish enough for the expense involved. We send sentences after values. Do they ever catch up?

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 08:10 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;114624 wrote:

Care to share some favorite wisdom from Rorty?
S9

Rorty wanted to dissolve most traditional philosophical problems. He's a neopragmatic linguistic philosopher. He stresses that truth is made not found. he doesn't deny a world outside of us but stresses the creative nature of science and politics as well as the obviously creative nature of poetry and philosophy.
He's a clear writer. I can't do him the justice he can do himself. Here's a summary of a great book of his. He's my favorite modern foolosopher as he is a fusion of everything I like, and he constantly illuminates the philosophies of the past.

Contingency, irony, and solidarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo,

I believe that metaphor is a little bit like the corpus callosum (the bridge between our left and right hemispheres of the brain).

Whereas the Left Brain ties things that we know together lineally, and organizes them, the Right Brain opens things up more picturially and adds space. A metaphor is a non-lineal space picture making it multi-dimensional. (A synthesis of sorts… Left/Right…Hop!)

I have to go right now, but will finish later, : ^ )
S9

@Reconstructo,

Sounds good. I would just say that all of our literal abstract terms are dead metaphors, or sleeping metaphors. Living metaphors are jumper-cables ran between dead metaphors, used to resuscitate, create new perspective. ("resuscitate" and "perspective" are words taken from the their original context, and are now dead metaphors...)

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo,

Perhaps you could give me another example of a dead and/or a sleeping metaphor, (and why?). Sorry to be so lame. : ^ )

For me, Truth was a reason to live for many, many years.

Only lately have I begun to suspect that truth, ‘Ultimate Truth,’ may wear a whole other face than I had ever suspected. All my small truths, thus far, the bricks that I have been using to build my own “Yellow Brick Road” with, all have turned out to be simple toys of the mind.

Truth (limited truth) is often used to point beyond its self. So, that we must also understand a truth contextually, or build a case that surmounts the individual words themselves. No matter what they tell us, about a literal phrasing, we won’t be walking on water real soon, except metaphorically.

I used to worry about saying something that some people weren’t ready to hear, and in some way hurting them in doing so. But, what I have come to realize in watching myself is, that people only hear what they are ready to hear, and not a moment sooner.

I have a little jewel of a book (Hindu) called the Bhagavad Gita. I read that book for years, again and again, and it just kept changing as I did.

My best friend said to me one morning, laughing, “Those damn elves came in last night, and rewrote the Gita again.” It was a standing joke. ; ^ )

I am a ‘back to the earth hippy’ who lives on a farm, and grows my own food, burns wood in a wood-burning stove to keep warm in the winter, etc. Simple living is my joy. I don’t do this because of money problems, by any means. It is my choice towards a quality of life. I bought back my freedom some years back, and now I own my time.

I’ve been reading a little about Rorty lately, and will speak about him with you when I feel that I have something worth saying. If you really like him, I am sure he is worth my effort. : ^ )

I am a bit of a pragmatist…not sure how neo I am though. I'll find out.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

Reconstructo,

Perhaps you could give me another example of a dead and/or a sleeping metaphor, (and why?). Sorry to be so lame. : ^ )

"metaphor" is a sleeping metaphor. "Trope" is a sleeping metaphor. The very words we use to refer to metaphors are metaphorical, as all abstract concepts must be invented by using old words in new ways. Sometimes, we just combine to words ("transcendental ego"). The word literal is a sleeping metaphor. It comes from the word letter. Letteral. By the letter. The word for the opposite of metaphor is a metaphor.

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 09:11 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

I used to worry about saying something that some people weren't ready to hear, and in some way hurting them in doing so. But, what I have come to realize in watching myself is, that people only hear what they are ready to hear, and not a moment sooner.

I know what you mean. Some thoughts will never fit in with certain networks ("selves")

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 09:12 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

Truth (limited truth) is often used to point beyond its self. So, that we must also understand a truth contextually, or build a case that surmounts the individual words themselves. No matter what they tell us, about a literal phrasing, we won't be walking on water real soon, except metaphorically.

I agree. That's why I say white lies. Because partial truths are often good for us, and better than no truth at all. Both Plato and Nietzsche point to something beyond or behind experience.

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 09:13 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

I have a little jewel of a book (Hindu) called the Bhagavad Gita. I read that book for years, again and again, and it just kept changing as I did.

I've read some of it. It's been awhile but I liked it. I've got a book by Watts on Eastern Philosophy at the moment.

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 09:14 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

I am a 'back to the earth hippy' who lives on a farm, and grows my own food, burns wood in a wood-burning stove to keep warm in the winter, etc. Simple living is my joy. I don't do this because of money problems, by any means. It is my choice towards a quality of life. I bought back my freedom some years back, and now I own my time.

Sounds good. My wife and I may do that one day. At the moment, our income is tied the city.

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 09:16 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;115124 wrote:

)

For me, Truth was a reason to live for many, many years.

That's sort of what I mean by "o." I still seek "truth," however ironic I am about the word. We are creatures of purpose. Are we capable of having no purpose? (Joe's adopted purpose is to have no purpose....)(let's see who can be least competitive...)

I enjoyed your post.
recon

@Fido,

Fido;113953 wrote:

The psychology of Freud needs to meet the razor of Occam...

The psychology of Fido needs to meet medication.

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;115167 wrote:

The psychology of Fido needs to meet medication.

Oooh...What have you got???

@Reconstructo,

Fido,

“More than at any time in history mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness, the other to total extinction. Let us pray that we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”
Woody Allen

I sometimes get the feeling that you have fallen down a well into despair. I wonder if you realize that this has been brought about in your life by looking outwardly, always, for your solutions, and using blame (of others) as you tool of choice?

Until we take responsibility for our own happiness, we are bound to wander lost in the dilemma of how to change this world (so we can be happy). Big job my friend, if not impossible. : ^ )

Church is just one more sign that you are looking for a savior, and are unwilling to strike out on your own, in search of the Holy Grail.

Not being rich is no excuse. There are happy Hindu monks that only own a robe on their back, and a bowl in which to hold the food they beg for daily.

Even Jesus looked within for his answers, and not in the marketplace of finance or politics. Jesus was my first Guru.

At least that is my way of seeing it,
S9

@Reconstructo,

speak for yourself; not for we...I get more by an ounce of truth than a pound of opinion...I do not think that wealth is the answer...I do know, that as people give their lives, with the stuff they make their lives out of people suffer the greatest misery, and that is what makes the fortunes of the rich...On the one hand it causes not happiness and the result is that it causes pain... What is the argument for wealth for a few: Fate???

Give me a break...All people have is time...To give time to work when it takes only a fraction of life to make the necessities of life, so that one will have his life demeaned, devalued and deminished by work when another sits without production or income has even less meaning if such a thing can be imagined is criminal... What is your life worth...Tell me your wage...

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo,

Partial truths (unlike actual lies, or even white lies) are usually usable truths of which we don’t have all of the information yet, and in fact all of the information (although it does exist) would be near impossible for our minds to assimilate.

For instance, I remember reading a book about 500 major cyclical that have a common influences on the Stock market. Although I could understand each of these cycles in isolation, I soon realized that I could never possibly understand how they geometrically influenced each other.

On top of this, there were many more cycles, some being psychological, for instance, that were pretty near impossible to even itemize, which entered into this same mix on top of the original 500.

So, many good investors rely upon understanding the trends, as in “The trend is your friend.” (A common motto)

Alan Watts was one of my first introductions to Zen. He is a very good writer. Being a teacher, he makes things clear enough to understand them easily. One of the best things he ever said IMO is, “Everything is spontaneous.” This was a later insight of his.

In his early life he had everyone trying really hard to be spontaneous, like spontaneity was something you could do. TRYING to be spontaneous is oxymoronic.

You are right. We are forced to live ‘AS IF’ there were purpose, because all of life is a process of becoming. Yet, at the very same time, because we also have the ability to be self-reflective, we can stand aside (intellectually) and see that becoming is not actually who we are.

Life is like a dream made up of thoughts and concepts. Our most Essential Self is not a thought. It transcends the mind.

Our Essential Self has no purpose because it is Whole/Complete (AKA Being) and is neither building itself, nor repairing itself. This is the difference between the Eternal and the finite. Eternity is outside of time.

S9

@Reconstructo,

Ignorance is not half truth... Every lie is an investment of energy... People do not invest that energy unless to reap an injustice...When people are deprived of the truth, which our governments do to protect us, the protect themselves as our expense... We need truth for life...Truth takes a great effort which no one would take if life were not at the end of it...It may not seem evident at a glance, but every lie steals life, because every lie takes time, and time is life...

@Reconstructo,

Fido,

We are forced to live with a certain amount of ignorance, as we are not omniscient. It is certainly an understandable human proclivity, to want to believe that you have the truth, any truth. But, I fear that you are just fooling yourself in doing so, and falling victim to the inborn arrogance of our species.

For instance, when we do something, we can actually never completely understand all of the ramifications of our acts, on ourselves, and on others.

Quote: “Its by hope that we live.”

We can only hope, that given what we know, we have acting correctly. (It should be very humbling, if we were able to face it.)

Everything is an investment of energy. Isn’t that the definition of physical life? When we stop investing energy, become sedentary, we also soon become ill, because the health cycle is to give off energy and replenish it, constantly.

Investing energy into a lie knowingly, of course, is an injustice of sorts, even if “ the ends justify the means.“ But, the biggest percentage of the lies that take place are told unknowingly, by people such as your self and my self, with the sure and best of intentions of saying what we feel to be true.

So, one might ask, in a disagreement, who is the liar? But, wouldn’t that be a form of foolishness?

There is no doubt in my mind that, we all long for the truth. Perhaps, this is because its instinct, or even increases our chances of survival. I also believe that Truth has an intrinsic Spiritual motive. I only question if we are capable of full truth as a limited species, which lives 4 score and 10.

Speaking of Transcendence is a whole other matter.

S9

@Subjectivity9,

Subjectivity9;115584 wrote:

Fido,

We are forced to live with a certain amount of ignorance, as we are not omniscient. It is certainly an understandable human proclivity, to want to believe that you have the truth, any truth. But, I fear that you are just fooling yourself in doing so, and falling victim to the inborn arrogance of our species.

For instance, when we do something, we can actually never completely understand all of the ramifications of our acts, on ourselves, and on others.

Quote: "Its by hope that we live."

We can only hope, that given what we know, we have acting correctly. (It should be very humbling, if we were able to face it.)

Everything is an investment of energy. Isn't that the definition of physical life? When we stop investing energy, become sedentary, we also soon become ill, because the health cycle is to give off energy and replenish it, constantly.

Investing energy into a lie knowingly, of course, is an injustice of sorts, even if " the ends justify the means." But, the biggest percentage of the lies that take place are told unknowingly, by people such as your self and my self, with the sure and best of intentions of saying what we feel to be true.

So, one might ask, in a disagreement, who is the liar? But, wouldn't that be a form of foolishness?

There is no doubt in my mind that, we all long for the truth. Perhaps, this is because its instinct, or even increases our chances of survival. I also believe that Truth has an intrinsic Spiritual motive. I only question if we are capable of full truth as a limited species, which lives 4 score and 10.

Speaking of Transcendence is a whole other matter.

S9

Ignorance is not the problem...We can always take our chances with half of the truth... When people communicate they communicate the truth... When people lie, they take from us what is essential to life: The Truth... They do not communicate, but mis communicate... The destruction of the truth is just a form of violence that will inevitably result in violence in all savagry... Humanity dies for its lies...

@Reconstructo,

Reconstructo;108970 wrote:

Truths are lies that work. Lies are truths that don't work.

What does it mean to work? In the end it gives us pleasure. Perhaps it secures us food, builds us a better bomb and makes us feel safer. Perhaps it dazzles our mind. Perhaps it enhances our self-esteem. Perhaps it structures our experience in a pleasant way.

To call truth a lie is to insist on its dynamic nature. The truth changes.

This scenario is idealistic for politics where truths are as rare as snowballs in Sahara.

Truths are lies that work = plausible statement

Lies are truths that don't work = unplausible statement

What does it mean to work? = people will accept the statement and adhere it's teachings.

In the end it gives us pleasure = ..eeeh? Have to disagree, most people just gets spoiled and wants more, therefore gets unsatisfyed.

@HexHammer,

HexHammer;127448 wrote:

This scenario is idealistic for politics where truths are as rare as snowballs in Sahara.

Truths are lies that work = plausible statement

Does that mean that if that statement is works, then it is true. How do we determine that it is true that a statement works, by the way.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;127452 wrote:

HexHammer;127448 wrote:
This scenario is idealistic for politics where truths are as rare as snowballs in Sahara.

Truths are lies that work = plausible statement

Does that mean that if that statement is works, then it is true. How do we determine that it is true that a statement works, by the way.

Partially messured in obidience and disobidience, and how many agrees and disagrees?

@HexHammer,

HexHammer;127469 wrote:

kennethamy;127452 wrote:

Partially messured in obidience and disobidience, and how many agrees and disagrees?

And we measure whether it is true that some disagree, and some agree, how? By whether that works? And how do we measure whether it is true that works. I suppose by determining whether that works too?

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;127472 wrote:

HexHammer;127469 wrote:

And we measure whether it is true that some disagree, and some agree, how? By whether that works? And how do we measure whether it is true that works. I suppose by determining whether that works too?
By the ancient ways, polls?

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