Truth is a White Lie

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Fido
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:54 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112855 wrote:
Is that true? Then what is the purpose of your truth that truth has a certain purpose?

Truth is a tree whose fruit is survival...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112851 wrote:
Apart from what that means, I suppose that you think it is true. Don't you?



Yeah, it's "true.":sarcastic:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:01 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112859 wrote:
Yeah, it's "true.":sarcastic:


What do you mean, you think it is "true"? Don't you think it is true?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:15 pm
@Reconstructo,
"Truth" is a little symbol we play with. Correspondence theory / deflationary theory / coherence theory. It's a big big lingual world out there. Sure, I think "truth is a white lie." This is a metaphor, not a tautology. If you really want to know what I mean, you can. But if we are playing a sport here, it's going to take a different direction. Which flows into the "truth and motive" thread. How much of what we argue for is just a pi**ing contest? Like chimpanzees we are. Who shall claim reality? Who shall claim authority? I say we are tool using status-seeking predators and that metaphors are some of our best tools. And that last sentence is a string of dead metaphors. Truth is what gets the chimpanzee the banana. Truth is what generates smiles. Truth is what gets our holy chimpanzee home at night. Sometimes it correspondence. Other times, when it comes to art and religion and philosophy, its coherence. What new thought fits into the role we are playing already? We are not open-minded people. We take what we need and burn the rest, ignore the rest, use our rhetoric against what threatens our network of belief and desire (ourselves). (Democracy implies the negation of absolute truth. Everyone is king and priest of their own life. Most ignore this privilege.....)
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:25 pm
@Fido,
Fido;112850 wrote:
There is a difference between ones truth and ones convictions...The people who cannot tell the difference are impossible...Even if you conceive of truth as perfect, it does not mean people have to be prefect to be true...


Can you say more about this? What is one's truth? Isn't it related to one's convictions? If you have no convictions that says something about you, your truth. If you have convictions but don't live up to them, that says something else about you, your truth. If you live up to your convictions, well, that says even more and might even make you more true.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:20 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;112871 wrote:
Can you say more about this? What is one's truth? Isn't it related to one's convictions? If you have no convictions that says something about you, your truth. If you have convictions but don't live up to them, that says something else about you, your truth. If you live up to your convictions, well, that says even more and might even make you more true.

Confucius said that wisdom is knowing something and knowing that you know it... To me that means consciousness of knowledge, and That means we think about all we know, and doubt always...Most of what we think we know we take on faith...Those are convictions... People build great social structures based upon their convictions, while those who think they may know, know they do not know enough to justify injustice...

You might become conscious of words like principals, or ideals... People have a terrible tendency to let their principals, and ideals do their thinking for them...Such things may be the product of another person's thought but they are neither a substitute for knowledge or thought...Yet that is what is running our world: minds on autopilot on wings of principals...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:55 pm
@Fido,
Fido;112858 wrote:
Truth is a tree whose fruit is survival...


That's a good line.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 01:44 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112896 wrote:
That's a good line.


If that happens to mean that it is a good thing to believe what is true, because it is useful to do so, yes. But I would have thought you disagreed.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 02:48 am
@Reconstructo,
One kind of "truth" : the ideas we act on with a gleam in our eye.

---------- Post added 12-20-2009 at 03:48 AM ----------

 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 02:54 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112930 wrote:
One kind of "truth" : the ideas we act on with a gleam in our eye.

---------- Post added 12-20-2009 at 03:48 AM ----------



Well, maybe I am tired. But you are so sybilline today. Particularly so, that you are even more incomprehensible than usual. I guess you have taken to heart what that cynical Frenchman said (I forget who). "Language was given to men to hide their thoughts".(But it may be that your obscurity is a device to hide that you are a bit wobbly about what you mean. And I can certainly understand that).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 02:55 am
@Reconstructo,
It's Saturday night.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:06 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112934 wrote:
It's Saturday night.


So it is. Those tidings have reached me, too.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:14 am
@Reconstructo,
Truth is a purple dwarf.

---------- Post added 12-20-2009 at 04:15 AM ----------

kennethamy;112937 wrote:
So it is. Those tidings have reached me, too.

Above is a joke/poem/fact, seems. Enjoyed it.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 06:57 am
@Reconstructo,
Tooth is a right lie, a wight thigh, the roast my, an angel sty.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 09:06 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113006 wrote:
Tooth is a right lie, a wight thigh, the roast my, an angel sty.


Is it still Saturday night in Kentucky. I wouldn't be surprised if it were.
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 12:35 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo,

We all seek safety (defend) in our own ways. Some of us seek it in believing that we do our own thinking, and don’t have to bend a knee to some Absolute God (at least the Ultimate as commonly understood in a religious sense), or bow to any Dogmatism whether religious or political. That would be me, what I like to call a ‘free thinker.’

I am not really a western philosopher, (having studied for years, the more Eastern philosophies), although I have read many of these more Western thinkers, and appreciate their minds.

I do not take on any ‘ism at/all. I see thought more like a banquet of which I indulge according to my whim and inclination. ; ^ )

I believe that fear is a rudimentary emotion, and is never actually gone beyond by our body/mind, a little like pain; it is a necessity to our survival. All that we can hope for in this area is to avoid the extremes of panic and despondency.

I believe that man has a need to "actualize" (Maslow), and this drive is built into us much like the sex drive is. Religion offer to feed this need, but unfortunately it often fails to deliver, because it falls short of aiming at what we actually need/want. But, I do believe that this drive is real and necessary, but poorly used.

Genius and innovation come out of another natural drive of man; the drive to create, or to self-express. Life gets very flat and uneventful when we no longer express our selves beyond our survival needs. Life has got to be more than simply filling our bellies.

No doubt, fear wears two faces within dualism. It is both an agent for motivation, and a killer of any risk taking (AKA growth). Perhaps a healthy mind MUST find a compromise with his fate.

Heroism, good one. Fido and I went around about this one, some time back. Want to see my scars? ; ^ )

Ego always paints itself in the best of lights (AKA greatest, smartest, most noble, and don't leave out biggest and best), don’t you think. But a great deal really comes back to competition, and the will to power.

We definitely have to study our selves, not just man, but rather our own intimate self, in order to understand why we are attached to certain ideals. Nobody does anything, without a personal payback.

Warm Regards,
S9
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 08:20 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;113041 wrote:

I believe that fear is a rudimentary emotion, and is never actually gone beyond by our body/mind, a little like pain; it is a necessity to our survival. All that we can hope for in this area is to avoid the extremes of panic and despondency.

I believe that man has a need to "actualize" (Maslow), and this drive is built into us much like the sex drive is. Religion offer to feed this need, but unfortunately it often fails to deliver, because it falls short of aiming at what we actually need/want. But, I do believe that this drive is real and necessary, but poorly used.

Genius and innovation come out of another natural drive of man; the drive to create, or to self-express. Life gets very flat and uneventful when we no longer express our selves beyond our survival needs. Life has got to be more than simply filling our bellies.

I agree with you on fear. Especially from a depth-psyche perception that sees the ego as a passenger. No life without some pain and fear. To avoid extremes, yes. And this is one of the charms of much philosophy. I have called it a "technology of morale."

I agree with you about actualization. Maslow is great. I first read Jung on individuation but it's the same thing. I was using Jung's "archetype" but I've switched to the word "meta-ideal." I feel that man's spiritual evolution is just the movement of this meta-ideal. We re-sculpt our "ego-ideal" as experience teaches us. But it seems that there is always an ego-ideal somewhere, an ideal-self that magnetically draws us against the "lusts of the flesh."

I've read some Eastern philosophy and consider it sublime. I'm much more familiar with certain Western foolosophers.

I think creativity is spontaneous: "child's play." I feel like a person can associate the artist role with their meta-ideal and this is a harvesting of the inner child by the ego-ideal. The two become symbiotic. It's an exciting game, I think, playing the great writer, or at least the great writer in training. Of course another part of the mind laughs at all of this, mocking the pursuit of status and castles made of sand.

Life does indeed have to be more than filling our bellies. I think there is a sort of spiritual instinct that accounts for all our culture. Did it evolve from something lower? Quite possibly. Someone could explain the experience of falling in love in objective Darwinian cynical terms and love remains as sweet. The objective view is both useful and reductive. I want to roll with the spirit, whether its brain-chemistry or transmissions from Saturn.

thanks for your detailed response,
recon
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 09:43 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo,

I see the ego rather as an ambassador (constructed out of the need to adapt) to the outside world. The King in this kingdom, (our life), is a more subjective, or inner Self. Sure the ego calls himself, “Me,” and considers himself to be the king. But, the ego is a thief.

“Technology of morale,” is both interesting and new to me. Could you elucidate further?

Jung is great, too, esp. the whole idea about archetypes. I feel that I can actually point to the one that has had a major hand in my life. I have often seen myself to be the puppet whose strings were controlled by this archetype. It held the controlling interest in how my time on this ‘great blue marble’ would be spent.

“Meta-ideal” sounds fruitful of meaning. Once again may I ask you to elucidate? (As I am very interested in spiritual evolution.)

Ego would spontaneously adapt to experience/circumstance, as any efficient ambassador must. Less than that is coined mental illness, is it not?

It is because any fulfillment, or success, in the area of bodily lusts is only temporary, that we grow tired (with time) of disappointments, that we often turn to other more promising things. It often takes a good deal of our youth before we actually see this pattern for what it is.

I agree with you in this. There does seem to be something that it drawing us to surmount our present ideas of who and what we are. We are both pulled by this mysterious force, and pushed by dissatisfaction to surmount our selves. I believe that Wittgenstein in his later years touch on this, but considered it beyond our ability to speak of in any totally correct manner, giving the incapacity of both our dualistic language and mind.

Creativity is certainly spontaneous, but than Alan Watts said late in life (with a laugh) that everything is. I also wonder if creativity doesn’t flow through us like a river (Very Taoist), and that we are not the doer of these things? (Very Hindu [Bhagavad Gita, “You are not the doer. You only dream that you do these things”])

The ego is divided up into different parts, for efficiency, and our child self is certainly one of these parts. To often, this is a neglected child.

These different parts constantly leak, or echo, back and forth into each other, (a symbiosis or sorts) both influencing and motivating. We may divide ourselves up into these strict roles, because of the demands that we put upon our selves (to succeed and to progress) in the time that is allotted. But, when we deny any part of our ego self, we are also denying our self the wholeness of response to life, and any depth of intimacy with our self. We are closing doors. This is of course a big old root in our personal dissatisfaction with life.

We often use creativity to rediscover these lost parts of our self.

There is nothing wrong with ‘strutting across the stage like a little king,’ if that is your fun. Best to pick a game that rings your bell and do it well. Isn’t that the bricks of actualization? But, also seeing the joke in this is therapeutic and keeps your feet on the ground.

“The world is a stage, and each must play his part.”

I see man as a multiple dimensional creature. The Chinese (I Ching) claims that we live in 3 worlds simultaneously, and must fulfill all 3 of these worlds at once in order to be whole (or satisfied). Heaven (spirit) is one, Earth (practicality) is another, and dead center between the two is a more neutral observer or witness. It is said that a wise man deals with all 3 worlds while standing in this middle.

This “Middle Way” (very Buddhist) keeps us from falling into what might manifest like a roller-coastal ride, with all of its ups and downs.

Looking forward to your reply,
S9
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 03:56 pm
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;113267 wrote:
Reconstructo,

"Technology of morale," is both interesting and new to me. Could you elucidate further?

Tech is tool use/ craft. Words are humans super-tools. What words do we use as drugs/magic to keep our chin up and our feet swift?Morale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Technology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm sure you know the words, but I think highly of etymology. I think the original metaphor always tells us something. another phrase would be the "technique of motivation."

---------- Post added 12-21-2009 at 05:00 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;113267 wrote:

"Meta-ideal" sounds fruitful of meaning. Once again may I ask you to elucidate? (As I am very interested in spiritual evolution.)

I pretty much mean the same thing as a Jungian archetype, but this word is my own coinage (to my knowledge). I don't much like the sound of "archetype"(love the concept). I wanted a word not connected to Jung, something that hinted at its meaning more than "archetype." The meta ideal is the ideal behind our ideals. It's the energy/magnetism/force they all have in common. Of course it's never experienced devoid of contigent content, but can be inferred, just as the Kantian thing-in-itself is inferred via our mental-model of mind (as a limiting concept).

---------- Post added 12-21-2009 at 05:05 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;113267 wrote:

Ego would spontaneously adapt to experience/circumstance, as any efficient ambassador must. Less than that is coined mental illness, is it not?

I agree. Do you know Freud's "ego ideal"? I think we all have our own picture of what the ideal human should be, of what we should strive for. But this ego-ideal is modified by experience. If a person is born smart, they are likely to associate intelligence with the meta-ideal. "intelligence" + "meta-ideal" = the ego in its negotiation of the world evolves toward intelligence. in real human beings its much more complex. among intellectuals, there are a thousand different sub-ideals of intelligence. then a writer is faced with anxiety of influence. if your ego-ideal includes originality, you are urged to constantly re-invent yourself.

---------- Post added 12-21-2009 at 05:11 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;113267 wrote:


The ego is divided up into different parts, for efficiency, and our child self is certainly one of these parts. To often, this is a neglected child.

These different parts constantly leak, or echo, back and forth into each other, (a symbiosis or sorts) both influencing and motivating. We may divide ourselves up into these strict roles, because of the demands that we put upon our selves (to succeed and to progress) in the time that is allotted. But, when we deny any part of our ego self, we are also denying our self the wholeness of response to life, and any depth of intimacy with our self. We are closing doors. This is of course a big old root in our personal dissatisfaction with life.

We often use creativity to rediscover these lost parts of our self.

There is nothing wrong with 'strutting across the stage like a little king,' if that is your fun. Best to pick a game that rings your bell and do it well. Isn't that the bricks of actualization? But, also seeing the joke in this is therapeutic and keeps your feet on the ground.

"The world is a stage, and each must play his part."

I see man as a multiple dimensional creature. The Chinese (I Ching) claims that we live in 3 worlds simultaneously, and must fulfill all 3 of these worlds at once in order to be whole (or satisfied). Heaven (spirit) is one, Earth (practicality) is another, and dead center between the two is a more neutral observer or witness. It is said that a wise man deals with all 3 worlds while standing in this middle.

This "Middle Way" (very Buddhist) keeps us from falling into what might manifest like a roller-coastal ride, with all of its ups and downs.

Looking forward to your reply,
S9


I agree with all of this. There a whole human being that functions are one behind our useful analysis (ripping in to parts) of this human being. It's all there for a reason. Just as the tiger's teeth are shaped a certain way by millions of years of trial and error.

On "strutting." I think the best strutting can mock itself. "transcendental buffoon" is a great term from F. Schlegel. "ironist" is a great term from richard rorty. To be systematically unsystematic. (and other such paradoxes.)

I really like the multiple dimensions comment. It strikes a chord. (three notes? one on each level of self?). The secret sits in the middle and knows. Jung thought the ego was off-center in the self. don't Asians describe their souls in their belly? Isn't this significant? Western man is a head man with a weak stem? The inner child and the dragon are necessary?
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 10:58 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo,

I agree with you that, words are the wings with which we fly, out of these more material worlds and into the more mental worlds. Very often our more physical self seems like a heavy rock tied around our neck.

In some of the more ancient languages, like Sanskrit, a single word can be a piece of wisdom and teach you much.

Thank you for taking the trouble to explain. : ^ )

Words certainly carry baggage, and connotations that might not adhere to our exact meaning. Perhaps that is why a dictionary is such a living thing, growing all of the time. A vocabulary that is too small, and constricted, soon overlaps its meanings into a limited number of words and losses any chance to actually communicate. For instance do you really love French fries in the same way that you love your wife?

I have run into words from other cultures that they claim had no appropriate translation into English. And so we have Shakespeare and yourself coining new words out of necessity.

Although I must say that Archetype has a Platonic flavor that comes close to what I have felt in my own life. Whereas an ideal almost makes me think that I am in charge somehow. Archetypes move us beyond our own personal will.

I am not crazy about Freud, but will give him another look under your guidance. So please, what is Freud’s “ego ideal?”

I must admit that my personal ideal goes beyond the ego, and so I am not so much trying to perfect the ego, as see my way out of it. I see the ego as limiting.

I am not advocating that we junk the ego, by any means, as it is the correct tool for the job of living as a human being. But, I do think that it is possible that we are more.

Are you familiar with Hermes, the jokester/trickster? (The holy fool.) He keeps showing up in multiple religions throughout the world, although dressed in different costumes and bodies; a coyote for the Indians. He opens doors. (Metaphorically)

Thanks for open some of my doors.

S9
 
 

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 01/08/2025 at 09:45:13