If A Tree Fell And Nobody Was There To Hear It Does It Make A Sound?

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parker pyne
 
Reply Sat 4 Jul, 2009 09:18 pm
@YumClock,
YumClock;74803 wrote:
It says "ow."


This is actually really thought-provoking. :a-ok:

I had agreed with most members so far - that sound is the product of the mind registering sound waves. But that is so characteristic of the proposition "man is the measure of all things"! What if we were to drift away from the humanistic narcissism?

By ascibing the tree anthropomorphic attributes (alliteration ahoy!), we see that humans are not the only receptive organisms. Sound waves affect plants too.

I don't know how accurate this is, but according to this site:
ehow wrote:
Plants do like noise. Plants exposed to a set frequency of sound tend to germinate more quickly, grow taller and weigh more than those kept in silence. Both 50,000 hz ultrasound (above the human hearing range) and 5,000 hz sound seem to work. Therefore, there's a good chance that plants like any sound you might play for them, including music.


What about vibrations produced by sound waves? Does that promote (or stunt) plant growth?

comment from [url=http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/teach/msg0501313532142.html wrote:
YES]Does music affect plant growth - Gardening with Kids Forum - GardenWeb[/url] it does! They did an expiriment on Myth Busters once. They had 5 identical greenhouses set up. One they played nice soft music, One had heavy metal, one had someone's voice talking nicely to the plants, one had someone yelling and screaming at the plants, and the last had no noise. The one w/ no noise, the plants were half the size as the others. The one that did the best was the Heavy metal. The rest I think were pretty much the same, except for the control greenhouse.


Is this an example of plants "hearing" sound, at their own level? If so, then the answer to the question "if a tree fell etc..." is yes.

Then the real question arises: "If a tree fell, and no living organisms were around in a close enough proximity to recieve the sound waves, would it make a sound?"
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 06:16 am
@parker pyne,
parker pyne;74935 wrote:
This is actually really thought-provoking. :a-ok:

I had agreed with most members so far - that sound is the product of the mind registering sound waves. But that is so characteristic of the proposition "man is the measure of all things"! What if we were to drift away from the humanistic narcissism?

By ascibing the tree anthropomorphic attributes (alliteration ahoy!), we see that humans are not the only receptive organisms. Sound waves affect plants too.

I don't know how accurate this is, but according to this site:


What about vibrations produced by sound waves? Does that promote (or stunt) plant growth?



Is this an example of plants "hearing" sound, at their own level? If so, then the answer to the question "if a tree fell etc..." is yes.

Then the real question arises: "If a tree fell, and no living organisms were around in a close enough proximity to recieve the sound waves, would it make a sound?"




Of course. As I pointed out, you can easily prove it by leaving a sound-recorder around the tree, and then listening to it later. Guess what you will hear (if the recorder is working)? The sound the tree made "when there were no living organisms around close enough to receive the sound waves".
 
parker pyne
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 06:23 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;75030 wrote:
Of course. As I pointed out, you can easily prove it by leaving a sound-recorder around the tree, and then listening to it later. Guess what you will hear (if the recorder is working)? The sound the tree made "when there were no living organisms around close enough to receive the sound waves".

You are not hearing the tree making a sound. You are hearing a second-hand documentation of the tree making a sound.

Technically, the recorder makes a sound, not the tree.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 08:15 am
@parker pyne,
parker pyne;75033 wrote:
You are not hearing the tree making a sound. You are hearing a second-hand documentation of the tree making a sound.

Technically, the recorder makes a sound, not the tree.


Technically, the recorder records the sound that the tree made when it fell, when no one heard it. If the recorder fell on the floor from your table, it would make a sound (unless it fell on a very soft rug, of course). Anyway, I have no problem with second-hand documentations, as long as they are accurate.
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 09:21 am
@Zacrates,
"If a tree fell and nobody was there..." If no one was there, how do we know the tree fell in the first place?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 02:10 pm
@John W Kelly,
John W. Kelly;75077 wrote:
"If a tree fell and nobody was there..." If no one was there, how do we know the tree fell in the first place?


The tree was standing earlier, and it was down later.
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 07:58 pm
@kennethamy,
According to who?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 5 Jul, 2009 09:01 pm
@John W Kelly,
John W. Kelly;75203 wrote:
According to who?


A number of people who saw that part of the forest before, and after. It was a big tree, and really hard not to notice. It must have fallen with a big thump!
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 7 Jul, 2009 12:48 pm
@Zacrates,
Terry if i farted in your car would you need to hear it to be aware of the consequences.Have you tried landing as it appears your very good at flying.If only we could have this conversation with your leaders we would all be happpyyyyy..all the best xris
 
no1author
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 11:44 am
@Zacrates,
Scientifically speaking:
if the Tree falls it will produce sound waves also, if theres nothing there to hear them it dosent make a sound.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 12:13 pm
@Zacrates,
Zacrates;66112 wrote:
If there is a soda can on a tree stump, in the middle of the forest, and noone knows about it is it still a soda can?

What else would it be? Extract a few key words from this sentence, and you are left with the question, "If there is a soda can, is it still a soda can?"

A variation of which kennethamy remarked on in a similar thread.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 04:38 pm
@Zacrates,
Does one mean by sound the vibration of air or rather the subjective experience of sound which is the brain's interpretation of such vibration?

It's all in the careful definition of terms. The question is silly if it is carefully phrased.
 
Leonard
 
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 10:12 pm
@Zacrates,
If you cannot smell carbon dioxide, how would you know it's there? You drop dead.
 
pondfish
 
Reply Sun 21 Mar, 2010 10:28 pm
@Zacrates,
Things can exist only if there is a prior definition about it. Chicken or egg comes first?.

Neither!.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:16 am
@pondfish,
pondfish;142068 wrote:
Things can exist only if there is a prior definition about it. Chicken or egg comes first?.

Neither!.
Oo uhmmmm ...so things pop into reality only by our definition?
 
pondfish
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:29 am
@Zacrates,
Unless you define , it can not exist even if you see it. If you have no word to describe it , it can not and will not exist.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 03:50 am
@pondfish,
pondfish;142117 wrote:
Unless you define , it can not exist even if you see it. If you have no word to describe it , it can not and will not exist.
Never heard about something that doesn't exist by observing it by rational beings, only should you be psycotic/skitzofrenic, things can abide this ..uhmmm .."special" reasoning.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:02 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;142112 wrote:
Oo uhmmmm ...so things pop into reality only by our definition?


But, he did not say that. He said that things cannot exist unless they have a definition. He did not say that when we define something, it exists. He said that definition is a necessary condition of existence, not a sufficient condition of existence.

But, anyway, of course he is wrong. Definitions are not necessary conditions of existence anymore than they are sufficient conditions of existence. Bacteria existed before even the word, "Bacteria" existed, and so, before the definition of the word, "bacteria".
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:07 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;142148 wrote:
But, he did not say that. He said that things cannot exist unless they have a definition. He did not say that when we define something, it exists. He said that definition is a necessary condition of existence, not a sufficient condition of existence.

But, anyway, of course he is wrong. Definitions are not necessary conditions of existence anymore than they are sufficient conditions of existence. Bacteria existed before even the word, "Bacteria" existed, and so, before the definition of the word, "bacteria".
Yes, no, aha, ok, I see, yes ..eh, yes mr Nit Picker!! ..I agree. Very Happy
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2010 06:09 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;142151 wrote:
Yes, no, aha, ok, I see, yes ..eh, yes mr Nit Picker!! ..I agree. Very Happy


You seem confused. I think what I wrote is very clear. The difference between a necessary and sufficient condition is a big difference.
 
 

 
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