why Religions?

@benjamin90,

Quote:

That's why I'm an agnostic and why I choose to believe in philosophy to keep me going rather than religion. With religion, it seems more like you're accepting someone else's ideas (not that this is always bad, of course!), and with philosophy, it's like you're taking old questions and applying your own beliefs to them, not someone else's. That's just my opinion, though!

The problem I have with some people and religion is that they don't take the outlook you described here. Like you said, they just accept what they hear at face value.

Faith becomes so much more when one starts asking questions. Even theology isn't technically philosophy, they are closely related in their endeavors.

It is imperative that our faith have strong support, and there is no better support than the certainty that one gets from asking questions.

------

I hope it is okay that I posted in this area even though I don't meet the age requirement.

@Wizzy,

Wizzy wrote:

Hi Benjamin and fellow european

I'm what people call an atheist, which means as you seem to do, I don't belive in any higher supernatural fairytale god or the easterbunny.

The main reason why religion work is simple, fear. Fear of death, fear of hell, fear of gods wrath, fear of what comes after death, fear to be on your own in a evil world and most of all fear of "what if they're right?". Also simple things like to refuse to realize that we aren't here to serve a higher cause or not beeing able to accept how mankind came to from other creatures as evolution have enourmous evidence to prove makes religion go around.

And for why children often stay in the same religion as their parents are simple propaganda (people are gonna hate me now) and brainwashing as they are told from the day that they are born how their religion see the world and how it was created, makes them say grace and pray for new things, then reward them with the thing they prayed for while the parents don't understand that they have been manipulated into manipulating. And if somebody claimed that everything you had ever known, that your picture of the world that makes so much sense with flawed logic and no proof apart from some book, which they see as proof, not as the fantasy novel it is. So simply: parents trick their children into beliving in something just because they belive in it.

This is ofcourse just my conclusions and theorys...
Hope I helped

*Edit
Don't know if I should have answerd in the young people forum, Justin, if I shouldn't have, tell me would you?

Well, I just got into this forum, down to this section, saw a thread that interested me, and the second answer was my thoughts exactly, with a few subtle differences.

I agree with the whole fear thing - Christianity is based on the fear that if you do not follow, or you are excommunicated or whatever, you will go to this horribly bad place where you're in eternal pain and demons play bowling with your head and that.

I'm personally atheist, and the way I see this is God saying "Here, children, you can do anything and everything you want, I've given you this entire world to play on, don't make a mess. Any sin, I'll forgive you. In fact, I'll send family to die for you. BUT! ONE THING! Break any of these ten rules (Commandments) and you will be sent down, into my basement, for all eternity, where you shall suffer endless amounts of pain and suffering.

I believe that children aren't tricked, as such, but conform out of young age, ignorance, and .. being too young to understand. As infants (and young children) you typically look up to parental figures, you learn your language off them, your behavioural skills are mimicry of theirs, so naturally their beliefs will become your beliefs, this is all I have for now but I shall try to contribute soon.

@benjamin90,

Paradox1, thanks for posting.

Quote:

Christianity is based on the fear that if you do not follow, or you are excommunicated or whatever, you will go to this horribly bad place where you're in eternal pain and demons play bowling with your head and that.

When you say based on, do you mean founded on? Because I would say that Christianity is founded on the teachings of Jesus and his followers. Hell is a consequence, not the driving force. From what I remember of the Bible itself, the focus is on living the life of a Christian and entering Heaven, not on going to Hell.

If you mean that Christianity today is based on the fear of going to Hell, I will again say that the focus is not on Hell, it is on living the life in and with Christ. A good Christian lives the Christian life because they love God, not because He will punish them.

Quote:

Any sin, I'll forgive you. In fact, I'll send family to die for you. BUT! ONE THING! Break any of these ten rules (Commandments) and you will be sent down, into my basement, for all eternity

This statement seems contradictory.

@de Silentio,

de Silentio wrote:

Paradox1, thanks for posting.

A good Christian lives the Christian life because they love God, not because He will punish them.

Not all Christians are good Christians.

But thankyou for your other points, in future I'll rethink what/how I state things. Smile

@Paradox1,

Hmmm? I don't see how anyone can call themselves an atheist.

To call oneself an atheist is to assert "I believe in not-god," that is, that god does not exist as a fundamental truth as Christians believes. But doesn't this seem problematic to anyone, yet alone ironic? Atheists in a way deify the idea of "no-god" the way a religious person would deify the idea of "god."

One would think it would be more rational to call oneself agnostic rather than atheist. The most fundamental statement atheists assert is "prove the existence of god?" Christians could respond by asking "how can you not prove the existence of god." Thus regressum ad infinitum. Point is? no one really knows or has proof? but both rely on the concept of faith. Temporal beings may never reach a point where we could actually "prove it," so both parties, religious or atheistic, rely on faith to guide their convictions on god, and whether or not that being exists. GASP!!! Faith as a fundamental, underlying assumption of both the religious and the atheist!!!! Religiousness and atheism are basically the same, faith in conviction, but only wear different masks to prove their points.

But it seems to me the biggest beef with atheists (on this forum anyway) is "control," or whether it be in this world or the next. Faith and freedom???

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

Hmmm? I don't see how anyone can call themselves an atheist.

To call oneself an atheist is to assert "I believe in not-god," that is, that god does not exist as a fundamental truth as Christians believes. But doesn't this seem problematic to anyone, yet alone ironic? Atheists in a way deify the idea of "no-god" the way a religious person would deify the idea of "god."

One would think it would be more rational to call oneself agnostic rather than atheist. The most fundamental statement atheists assert is "prove the existence of god?" Christians could respond by asking "how can you not prove the existence of god." Thus regressum ad infinitum. Point is? no one really knows or has proof? but both rely on the concept of faith. Temporal beings may never reach a point where we could actually "prove it," so both parties, religious or atheistic, rely on faith to guide their convictions on god, and whether or not that being exists. GASP!!! Faith as a fundamental, underlying assumption of both the religious and the atheist!!!! Religiousness and atheism are basically the same, faith in conviction, but only wear different masks to prove their points.

But it seems to me the biggest beef with atheists (on this forum anyway) is "control," or whether it be in this world or the next. Faith and freedom???

Well, I see your point that athiests have faith in that there is no god but what I don't understand is the two arguments about proving back and forward.

It doesn't really matter if -for an example- I can't prove that there isn't a god, because you can't prove that there is one and because you have to doubt anything until it's proven or have proof to back up that theory and to tell you the truth it's pretty hard to prove that something doesn't exsist.

If I would claim that unicorns exsist but we just doesn't know that they exsist because you can't capture them and they are invisible but one of them presented themselves to me because I'm speciall, I might even get a few witnesses to back up my story for a few bucks.. How would you go about to prove me wrong? Or even: how would you prove me wrong 2000 years from now?

The point is that..
? I don't belive in a god, and that's just common sense because of the massive lack of evidence to back it up while there's a lot of evidence to back up for instance the evolution theory which is the opposit of the christian creationism theory.
? I'm convinced that there isn't a god because of the world around me. Why would people starve if there would be somebody that would stop it in seconds? Why would there be evil in the world? And why would there be bad people, commiting bad deeds be able to live like kings while good people, commiting good deeds are able to live like suckers? Karma should be real if god is real.

The first point isn't really philosophy, it's just as I said, common sense to doubt anything that isn't proven or have proof to back up the theory. The second one is philosophical because I don't have any real proof, just scenarios and facts to draw conclusions from..

@benjamin90,

Quote:

? I don't belive in a god, and that's just common sense because of the massive lack of evidence to back it up while there's a lot of evidence to back up for instance the evolution theory which is the opposit of the christian creationism theory.

Evolution explains how life evolved after it had already began, but cannot explain how life started. In fact, I don't think science can at all explain how life started, but I could be wrong.

Creationism can incorporate evolution. Not a literal translation of the creation that is in the Bible, but one must remember that the Bible is not the only 'book' that God gave man.

@benjamin90,

Quote:

Not all Christians are good Christians.

You are correct, but are they then Christians?

It seems that we must have a method for determining if someone is a Christian before we call them a Christian or not. For, I would say that someone who believes in the Son of Man, but does not love and obey him, and in fact hates him, is not a Christian.

@de Silentio,

Wizzy,

The religious worship god the way the atheistic worship no god. The two embody concepts that are similar in all respects except the entity of god. The atheist and the religious operate at extreme ends of the same spectrum.

And because we can neither prove nor disprove the existence or non-existence of god, it is prudent and rational to assume that God might or might not exist. One can no more prove there is no god than proving there was one.

To address your points;

1.That you do not believe in god is not common sense because you are substituting god for no god. It would be like substituting Christianity for Buddhism. That there is a lot of evidence to support atheism is nonexistent. It would be as impossible to disprove the existence of god then it would be to prove gods existence. Also, science and empirical observation have a built in disclaimer in every notion, and that is that evolution, relativity, etc are "theories" and just that. When it is said it is a theory, it is no law, it is merely the most reasonable hypothesis available taking into account variables that cannot be explained. (Also, it is very much a philosophical point you make)

2.That you are convinced there is no god because of the world around you is problematic. We all can admit there are things in the world that we cannot explain. Because we cannot explain them, does this mean they do not exist? Yet unexplainable things do exist and we do not discount them. Many people adopt the notion of god to fill in the blank so to speak for the unexplainable.

Why would there be starving people when an entity exists that would stop it in seconds? I would be disappointed in an all perfect being that mended in an imperfect world that should by all means have been perfect in the first place. Suffice to say, that's not Gods job. Thats human corruption. Why would there be evil? What better way to understand good than to contrast with evil. Both must exist to accentuate the other. Why do bad people reap the rewards while good people suffer? That's life? god doesn't have any part in that? that's human corruption, not gods inaction.

@VideCorSpoon,

Spoon

I'm not saying that me beeing convinced that there isn't a god is common sense, that's pretty much the opposit. But doubting the exsistance of a god is common sense.

"Also, science and empirical observation have a built in disclaimer in every notion, and that is that evolution, relativity, etc are "theories" and just that. When it is said it is a theory, it is no law, it is merely the most reasonable hypothesis available taking into account variables that cannot be explained"
Oh? And religion doesn't have a built in protective system? I've asked a hundred christians how their god would let something like WWII happend and they allways answer something like "it's all a part of gods divine plan". And also on that point, how come god steped in while the jews where in trouble in Egypt a few thousand years ago but couldn't step in against Hitler? In Egypt they where 'just' slaves while in Germany they where beeing killed by the hundreds, explain that in a reasonable way!
"My Lord, my Lord! What hast Thou done, lately?" - Woody Allen

Well, beeing gods job or not, you have to agree that if this is the work of an all-knowing, all-powerfull, humble, caring spirit, he's got to be retarded! And if he created us, why did he create us? Couldn't he have built something cooler like monsters and use the world as his Battle Royale ring? And if he is real, why would an all-knowing and all-powerfull creature care if he's beeing worshiped every sunday at some speciall building or not? And if he is all powerfull and real, why doesn't he give the churches some more money instead of them robbing their visitors in there? And if god is real, how the hell can he allow something as dark, sinister, evil and twisted as Michael Jackson?

You have to argee that there's alot of questions that's reasonable to ask if there would come some guy telling you for the first time that there's a invisible man in the sky watching over you..

@Wizzy,

Wizzy,

I think it is paramount that universal doubt be common sense. To cast preference in either direction for the existence or nonexistence of god is not common sense.

Scientific theory takes into account the fact that theories are disproven as easily as they are posited, and so they do not solidify them in scientific fact. It's not a protective system, but rather insurance for when the theory is eventually proven wrong or mended. Does religion have a protective system? It's more like religion has a fortified system. Remember that within religious doctrine, they have the latitude to maintain their beliefs because it is an isolated system, much like logic, where within a closed system, the sky could not only be blue, but green, purple, etc if the logic is deductively valid.

The people that explain that "it is god's plan" impart that there is no empirical explanation for why something like World War II occurs, so "God" is substituted in for "I know not what" as a universal embodiment of occurrence.

To address why god helped the jews in biblical times and not in modern times. That's not really god's job. Human corruption and sin are an earthly matter, gods job in theology is for the most part to preside over how you faired in your trial run.

That Gods retarded, I don't know about that. The idea of God never possessed a consciousness to be retarded. Also, god can be neither male nor female. A sexed god is a byproduct of the human corruption of the idea of god. Also, God, who exercises cosmic will and abilities which mend and bend the universe then giving cash to limited corporeal beings would be? well? not his job. As for Michael Jackson? he made thriller? thriller.

Question - "My lord, my lord! What hast thou done, lately?" (Woody Allen)

Answer - "Well, besides holding together the fabric of space and time and being that underling feature of everything, everywhere, at the same time in a variety of conflicting faiths and doctrines which meld the frameworks of human actualization as you know it? not much." (VideCorSpoon)

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

I think it is paramount that universal doubt be common sense. To cast preference in either direction for the existence or nonexistence of god is not common sense.

Yeah, doubt everything, and that's what I'm trying to tell you but you draw a firm line between doubting and beliving, isn't there a gray-zone where the people that don't belive or dissbelive is hanging out just chilling while we argue about the subject? Wink

Scientific theorys never really claim to be the truth to begin with, it's just what's at that time, with what evidence we have is most likely and reasonable while religion have ignored anything like reason and likelyhood. Besides if a christian thinks that the bible is a good moral code, how come nobody is stunned and amazed at the brilliance of what 'god the all-knowing fella in the sky have written'? And why don't we have christians doing animal sacrifice to please god? (Leviticus Chapter 1, Leviticus Chapter 5, Leviticus Chapter 7, Leviticus Chapter 9 talk about animal sacrifice) Because it's a closed system it's impossible to change the system with the times, which makes it a poor system in my oppinion.. Nobody want to sacrifice animals anymore for any reason, yet to be a good christian according to the bible, you should do it? Come on, all religious people pick and choose what to follow, if there is heaven and hell, heaven would be empty! Atleast if the bible is right..

Another thing: if god is all-knowing, shouldn't he know what's going to happen down to the second of any given day? So techniqually, as he created us and could see allready then what was going to happen, he's guilty of our sins isn't he? As he who is all-powerfull could have created us incapable of sinning, isn't that right?

He created the first human in his image didn't he? And as the first human was Adam, shouldn't god have a penis? And the first female, Eve, wheren't god's desire to create, it was Adam who asked him for a mate so according to the Adam and Eve story, god should be a male shouldn't he?

Ofcourse I meant mentaly retarded, a child would be able to create a better world then the one that we know as our home today if given the same powers that religions claim that 'god' have... Less pain and less evil, better for the good people and worst for the bad ones. And it doesn't make any sense, if god is all powerfull and totaly awsome, shouldn't he be doing something more, I don't know, just something? Just announce himself in some manner, giving people a real reason to belive in him?

As for MJ, sure one good song and a life time of whacked out of his mind! Fair trade? Razz

Good answer to the Woody Allen quote, if you belive in that.. I think time and space and materia etc. etc. etc. is much simpler then that. It's all different types of energy such as the earths movement energy spinning around the sun and the moon around us that gives us the idea of time, if we would be stationary, time would be a joke. Ofcourse it might be impossible for the earth to be stationary and have life on it, I don't know..

@benjamin90,

First of all, the religions were born as an outcome of the lack of knowledge. Many people thought that the things such as Sun, Moon or other planets were their Gods and the unusual events like earthquakes, floods or drought were some of their Gods' signal. However later, it came out that these facts were not really strange and they were related with the laws of science. When the science started to develop, also the beliefs changed themselves enforcedly according to the science.

However today, if you ask me why people believe the religions, I will reply you it's all about prejudice, social pressure and lack of knowledge again. People believe something which they don't think about what they believe. Actually there are many points that should be expressed but it would be too long to tell all things. These are the basic causes.

@Foldstein,

Wizzy,

I don't think religions ignore reason and likelihood because they are attempting to explain the unexplainable. I don't think there could ever be solid reason for a non-existent thing.

As for animal sacrifices and closed systems, because it's a closed system, anything is possible within it. It is not the case that it is a poor system, only that it works with a set of assumptions relative to that particular system. Also, all nonreligious pick and choose what to follow. Hypocrisy is at both ends.

A point about god, that if God is all knowing, he should know everything, even our sins and thus be accountable for them. I have to point out your fallacy regarding God. For not believing in the Christian dogma, you s use a strong Christian litmus test to disprove him. Is the idea of God only Christian?

I sense a recurring theme with your reasoning, which is that "If God is so powerful, why did he do/not do X?" I said it before and I'll say it again? It's not God's job. And when I say it's not God's job, I mean that if an apple fell from a tree, rolled from the ground and subsequently caused a car to crash killing all the people inside it, it is not Gods fault. God is the substrate that the apple, tree, car, and people that take part in the occurrence. The substrate holds the attributes (redness, solidity, etc) but is not the thing itself. God's responsibilities are for unexplained existence. God is doing something, but humans perhaps take that for granted and misinterpret what God is.

Foldstein,

I disagree with you. Religions were born from a plethora of knowledge that needed explaining. The abstract forms of reasoning the religious fostered in turn nurtured people like DaVinci, Goddard, and Nietzsche to think outside the box. Religion exists to explain what Locke would say "I know not what." Something that science ironically attempts to do.

That people believe in religions because of social pressure, lack of knowledge, and prejudice? that's life. That's also the foundation of science if you think about it. Ironic, isn't it.

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

I don't think religions ignore reason and likelihood because they are attempting to explain the unexplainable. I don't think there could ever be solid reason for a non-existent thing.

Yeah, you can't prove that something doesn't exsist like, god?

VideCorSpoon wrote:

As for animal sacrifices and closed systems, because it's a closed system, anything is possible within it. It is not the case that it is a poor system, only that it works with a set of assumptions relative to that particular system. Also, all nonreligious pick and choose what to follow. Hypocrisy is at both ends.

Well, not really.. Nonreligious people don't say that they wish to follow any system, do they? They (we) don't have any reason to follow something they don't belive in do they (we)? And all closed systems are lacking in the adjustability department. You know Charles Darwin's theory where the phrase "Survival to the fittest" comes from? It's about that the creature who can adabt the best, survives the longest. With a closed system, it's impossibly for it to adabt, meaning that it will die, sooner or later..

VideCorSpoon wrote:

A point about god, that if God is all knowing, he should know everything, even our sins and thus be accountable for them. I have to point out your fallacy regarding God. For not believing in the Christian dogma, you s use a strong Christian litmus test to disprove him. Is the idea of God only Christian?

No, the idea of god isn't limited to the christian religion, we can take up more religions if you wish to, I only use the christian god since this is an american website with the population of it beeing most americans and america's population beeing the most religious in the world with christianity beeing the main religion, it's only reasonable to use the chrisitan idea of god for these discussions.. Also Christianity beeing the largest religion today and having the same "god" as both Islam and Judaism, I think it's the leading religion and thus their idea of god is the one I should be bashing on isn't it? Wink

VideCorSpoon wrote:

I sense a recurring theme with your reasoning, which is that "If God is so powerful, why did he do/not do X?" I said it before and I'll say it again? It's not God's job. And when I say it's not God's job, I mean that if an apple fell from a tree, rolled from the ground and subsequently caused a car to crash killing all the people inside it, it is not Gods fault. God is the substrate that the apple, tree, car, and people that take part in the occurrence. The substrate holds the attributes (redness, solidity, etc) but is not the thing itself. God's responsibilities are for unexplained existence. God is doing something, but humans perhaps take that for granted and misinterpret what God is.

You have to understand that it's close to -or not acctually- impossible to prove that something DOESN'T exsist, so using those "If God is so powerful, why did he do/not do X?" questions is just to prove that if this god is as powerfull as almost all religions say why is the world as it is? He could have created an utopia couldn't he? So why did we get this ball we know as earth today instead of that utopia?
And another question: What is god's job then? You keep saying that it "isn't his job" yet he must do something don't he? Would be boring as hell not to do anything all the time.. And don't give me that "holding the world together" speach, as all the 'holy scriptures' mentions miracles he have done so he must do something more doesn't he?

In the words of Homer Simpson, Go suck a bible! (just joking, but god damn it's funny when he says it..) Very Happy

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

I disagree with you. Religions were born from a plethora of knowledge that needed explaining. The abstract forms of reasoning the religious fostered in turn nurtured people like DaVinci, Goddard, and Nietzsche to think outside the box. Religion exists to explain what Locke would say "I know not what." Something that science ironically attempts to do.

That's another dimension of why did the religions were born. However it's not the foundation because people have lack of knowledge more than the knowledge.

Quote:

That people believe in religions because of social pressure, lack of knowledge, and prejudice? that's life. That's also the foundation of science if you think about it. Ironic, isn't it.

There is nothing to do with the science here.

@Wizzy,

People believe in religion for many reasons. I am slightly bias in my own opinion because I'm very religious, but if you look at it from my friends view, he always says "People made up God in their mind to keep them sane"... just wanted to add that. If you think about his statement, hes saying that since we don't know about before or after death, creation, space, etc. that people decided to find satisfaction and peace by finding their "God".

@benjamin90,

benjamin90 wrote:

Hey I wonder why people have religions ..

like they have got no proof or so that for example god exists or talking about reincarnation and stuff
why they don't want to think further or so and get to the ultimate truth ?

hmm...

I make my own philosophy on how to live and I decide what's good or wrong , the side effect of it is I think is that I'm not focused and motivated at all in life on what I want you know I'm often worrying about lots of things and I'm a bit of a dreamer at the moment..
that's why I quit school for a bit (8 months, for the rest of the year), I really wasn't motivated to make efforts in school

So ya I know that we can't think any further and we cant know why we are here on this planet and stuff but for example some just stay in the religion that their parents are in I think that's dumb and made it too easy..like if they had no own head and wouldnt ask themselves several important questions you know.
As for me , my family is mostly Christian but I was tired of it so I got no religion at all now as I said before.

please let me know about your thoughts

I hope what I wrote is understandable (My native language is not English..)

regards--

I think that the religious is the effect of the people's need for the reason to do thing right and the reason for our existence. I do not have any particular religion either. The thought that there is no guidance of life set down by some powerful being make it look as if our life has no meaning at all. It feels as if we are very unsafe and then there is the fact that God make us feel as if we are a favored race.

@Dragoniter,

There were so many I wanted to quote in this topic but that would have taken an insane amount of time so I am just going to state my opinion and let people quote me (hopefully/when/if).

Religions exist because they are truth for some people. Religion is simply another interpretation of the quest for true knowledge. As in some may think through logic, reason and all this wise thinking that we might arrive at some truth but others think through faith AND reason this can be achieved. I look beyond religion myself... but it doesn't make any religion I might chose to follow in my life pointless.

As for there being no logical proof of God, read Descartes meditations. Like all arguments/viewpoints there are flaws because it still remains so subjective...and is fighting against scepticism itself but it is clearly a logical argument in its tone and structure. Ontological argument...Cosmological argument. Both good reads =)

I'm a firm believer in reason and logical thinking. I do believe religions have their advantages...how many times has a person's power of mind overcome a difficult situation/horrible suffering because they had hope and faith in a religion or divine being, I can't even estimate the figure...Maybe that is what miracles are, but that is for another discussion.

I do however believe religions restrict humans into their paradoxes when it comes to thinking about the sort of metaphysical arguments in all these things. Depending on the human though. SO much depends on context.

I'm not going to even begin to point out all the ways in which people condemn religion but you have to remember that...these are people following their religions. People are infallible. Point being that we shouldn't always leave it as a fault of the religion even if the people used religion as their reason or cause, it was the person who morphed the real religion's messages and aims after all.

(I will contribute more detailed opinion tomorrow but I can't keep my eyes open and thought I'd just say all that for now)

There is, it's called the church of Baha'i.

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