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To keep this simple, how about we limit our exchange to the hypothetical I presented in my last post, except I'll broaden it a bit. My question is, essentially, is it possible to be a devotee of Jesus by only relating to Jesus? For example, if I were going to be a devotee of Jesus, I'd only consider words attributed to him. I might read others' accounts (such as those found in the Gospels) searching for how Jesus "felt" to those writers (whoever they were), but their own personal interpretations would hold no weight unless they jived with what I personally took from my study of and feel for Jesus.
"Scripture cannot be broken" [John 10:35].
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God" [Matthew 4:4].
In this approach, nothing said by anyone but Jesus is considered automatically true. So I am free to reject every religious concept, belief, ritual and anything else that wasn't directly taught by Jesus himself. Of course, that includes the belief that the Bible is inerrant and that I must believe, follow or obey it in order to be a "true" Christian.
"Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel" [Acts 9:15].
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me" [John 5:46].
"Write what you see..." [Revelation 1:11].
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age" [Matthew 28:19-20].
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you" [John 16:12-15].
The little thought problem I presented to justify my way of being a Christian was to ask if someone could be a true devotee of Jesus while he was alive; i.e., before the resurrection, before the NT, before all church dogma was developed, etc. It is obviously ridiculous to think Jesus needed any of that stuff to help him create "Christians," and if so, then neither are they needed now.
"Who do people say that I am?"
"John the Baptist; others say, Elijah; and other, one of the prophets."
"But who do you say that I am?"
"You are the Christ" [Mark 8:27-29].
"My Lord and my God!" [John 20:28].
"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" [John 1:29].
"Before Abraham was, I AM" [John 8:58]
"I and my Father are one" [John 10:30].
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" [John 10:11].
"All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all" [Isaiah 53:6].
Jesus "did not preach grace" Paul the debatable apostle did. In the gospels attributed to Jesus, even the slightest minutest sin would send you to hell, unless you repented day and night
We are expected to fight against the very nature God hard wired into us Like my brother Roger once said the Christian fundamental "Fun Police" are out in force to prevent any sort of enjoyment. Heck man even eating is a sin.
You are either incredibly ignorant of the teachings of Christ and the texts of Scripture, or you are deceitfully wicked in attempting to formulate a false hermeneutic.
JEROME
I have read through the entire bible a few times having read Genesis etc many times, the gospels hundreds of times
OH yes I have read the epistles as well and your position that you are the only knowledgeable one on the forum and the rest of us are illiterate ignoramuses is offensive to me and most unchristian like in behaviour
Be more like the sweet lord you are supposed to follow and I will take you more seriously Mr JEROME
Be more like the sweet lord you are supposed to follow and I will take you more seriously
"Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because the truth is not in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell you the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" [John 8:43-47].
[SIZE="3"]I am not ignorant of his teachings, but you are boringly and boorishly dogmatic, a shameless opportunist using the obscurity of the internet to condescend, insult, trample other points of view, and otherwise behave as a craven internet flamer. I'll leave you to your spineless games; likewise, I'd appreciate your silence towards me.[/SIZE]
Alan on a still summers evening i can hear the sound of pans pipes drifting across the mist covered valley and smell honeysuckle in the air.I believe in fairies and many chuckle at my admission but then fundamentalist fools, all of them, think i am a heathen and need salvation.I have respect for those who have found their god but blind obedience to scriptures bewilders me.
Christ never intended this dogmatic attitude he came with a message of love not this autocratic zealot manic crap.
You may assert to your heart's content that I have been nothing but crude and insulting to you and others here, Alan, but the fact of the matter is: I have taken the time to respond in detail to your objections, and all you have done is whine and complain that I am "not being nice."
Grow a pair.
You write:
Perhaps, in your hundreds of times of having read the Gospel of St. John, you "missed" these words of Christ, meek and mild:
JEROME
---------- Post added 07-15-2009 at 08:48 PM ----------
Yes, LWSleeth, I am dogmatic (even boringly so); to this I will proudly concede.:Glasses:
However, how have I used the "obscurity of the internet to condescend, insult, trample other points of view"? What does this even mean? Seriously.
I must only assume that you, having nothing of insight, ability, or significance to contribute to our debate, are left to play rhetorician, sophist, and petulant child.
JEROME
That is beautiful xris!! like a strange surreal evening on an alien planet, with its three yellow moons reflecting on the still waters of its purple ocean.
There trees don't stand still but each night lift up their roots and gather in groups of vibration energy that emanates from their assure flowers.
Of course making such imaginary statements are blasphemy to the closed minded fundamental exclusives.
Let them keep their cultish beliefs that all revolve around death and read their musty smelling hymn books as they sing songs about gods funeral
God is more loving nonjudgemental than they give him credit for, he loves us all, he did not create man to destroy 99.99999 in the flames of hell.
I dont believe one word of the bible came from god and those who claim it is are deluded.It was written by man and no one can even prove the existance of jesus, let alone claim his sacred.There are messages in the bible but you it appears are completely oblivious to it.I think you better search for humility in your great book and read.
---------- Post added 07-16-2009 at 03:34 AM ----------
Thanks Alan there is more love in one childish laugh than a certain persons blinkered faith.I was in a good mood as my daughter has just got her science degree,reading this thread makes me wonder if education maketh the man.
Jerome, Jesus was referring to the scripture that existed in his time - the Jewish scriptures. It would be impossible for him to have referred to the New Testament given that the New Testament did not exist at the time of his teaching.
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." [John 16:12-15]
"Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience fo our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." [II Peter 3:14-16]
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." [II Timothy 3:14-17]
"Scripture cannot be broken" [John 10:35].
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
If one must accept the New Testament as it stands today in order to be a Christian, then there could not have been Christians prior to the canonization of those texts (Which means that the Bishops who busied themselves with compiling modern scripture could not have been Christians at the time of their toil), and anyone who preferred other Gospels and what we now call apocryphal scripture could not have been Christians.
A further difficulty is the question of which set of Scripture must one accept to be a Christian? The Roman Catholic set? If so, then Eastern Orthodox Christians and the Christians of Ethiopia cannot, by definition, be Christian. But this seems remarkably arbitrary - just as arbitrary as saying that in order to be a Christian one must accept any X book(s).
Now, Jerome, I understand that religious discussion can quickly heat up, but calling other members "petulant children" is not acceptable on this forum. Please refrain from name calling in the future - and if you cannot manage to reply to a post without resorting to playground antics, then simply refrain from replying.
But now you are using what Peter says after New Testament scripture was already in circulation (though, much of that is now apocrypha). Peter's words are not the words of Jesus. By my line of argument, even Peter cannot be taken to be authoritative - authority is in the hands of Jesus alone. A person might reject the notion that Peter properly understood the message of Jesus, and therefore reject his commentary on Jesus' teaching. Citing Peter cannot make the argument you are tasked with - and it is not small task!
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." [John 16:12-15]
"Sanctify them [the Apostles] in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
I do not ask for these only, [John 17:17-20]
"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you [the Apostles] always, to the end of the age.'" [Matthew 28:18-20]
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." [Acts 1:8]
"This Jesus God raised up, and of that we are all witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this [that is, this sermon] that you yourselves are seeing and hearing." [Acts 2:32-33]
"And we [the Apostles] have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." [II Peter 1:19-21]
as they do the other Scriptures." [II Peter 3:15-16]
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look." [I Peter 1:10-12]
the word of the Lord remains forever.' And this word is the good news that was preached to you." [I Peter 1:23-25]
he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and children of Israel." [Acts 9:15]
"The things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." [I Corinthians 14:37]
"And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the words of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers." [I Thessalonians 2:13]
"But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter."
[II Thessalonians 2:15]
"But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work." [II Timothy 3:14-17]
I can understand if you want to argue that Jesus was referring to Scripture as in any teaching directed by God. And I can buy that argument. However, Jesus never gives us a list of works that fit that bill. What an individual practitioner takes and believes to be the Word of God, given that Jesus did not make specific recommendations regarding NT and NT apocrypha, is up to the individual conscience of that practitioner.
The bottom line is, Jerome, that Jesus did not tell us which books were Scripture and which were not. It is up to we mortals to wade through the material and rely upon our own good conscience when deciding which texts are and which are not the Word of God.
"Jesus said to them, 'Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.'" [John 8:42-47]
"Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." [John 18:37]
[John 20:31]
"I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." [John 10:14-16]
Furthermore, not all orthodox branches of Christianity accept the same set of scripture. There are differences between Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Bibles, as well as the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. There is not one single Orthodox Bible.
As for the claim of these texts existing verbally prior to being written down, historically, this is not completely true. The texts that were set down do originate from the oral tradition, but there is no way to be certain that the oral tradition was perfectly transcribed into the written version. Oral tradition tends to quickly develop a variety of strains as the telling passes from one to another. It is highly unlikely that a single oral strain was perfectly related from it's conception into writing without change. In fact, if we look to the Bible, we can see evidence of this splintering of the oral tradition - the best case of this evidence are the vast difference between the Synoptic Gospels and John's Gospel. And that is without even looking at the various differences in the Synoptic Gospels, much less looking at the apocrypha, and some of that apocrypha pre-dates some of the Gospels (and if they pre-date a Gospel, historically, we have to recognize that they are probably closer to whatever oral tradition was popular in the area of the writing).
You mention the homolegoumena, and I'm glad that you did. But first, I do not think the distinction meets the objection. Even if there are universally accept books, there are still a great many contested books, books which some people say are the Word of God and the very same books being denied by others as the Word of God. This disagreement creates enough ambiguity in what exactly is the Word of God that Christians can have remarkably diverse and different sets of Bibles.
Further, I do not think the homolegoumena exists as you describe it, being some sort of "those books of Scripture unanimously received as canonical by the ancients". This set of texts is typically agreed upon as belonging to the canon, however, there were ancients who disagreed. Marcion of Sinope is the classic example, and there were a great many others as well.
Also, there still exists the problem of Christians existing prior to these texts being written. Even if we assume that the oral tradition was perfectly preserved in the writting, there would have been the majority of Christians who were only familiar with a portion of that oral tradition - and even after the writing down, and een after the canonization of those writing, there were a great many Christians who kept a set of works that differed from the canon.
Even today there are many Christians who keep for Scripture a set of texts quite different from any canon. And I see no reason to deny them as Christians simply because some body of men decided upon a set of books that another man disagrees with to some extent.
"Then he [Christ] said to them, 'These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.'" [Luke 24:44-49]
"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." [John 8:56]
As for the language: please understand me, my friend. Your language was inappropriate - we do not name call. The other members you mention have been here for some time, they know the rules, and the moderating team is aware of what transpires. My remark to you was not the issuing of an infraction or anything like that - I was simply trying to give a newer member a heads up on what is and what is not tolerated. I strongly advise you not to persist in what a moderator has asked you to end, especially when you have now been asked twice to desist.
The old and the new testaments are nothing like each other but the fundamentalist it appears can reconcile his belief with the certainty they are the same god given scriptures.For even a moderate christian the comparisons must be extremely confusing.How can you represent The god of jesus with the his message and then see these awful events his father appears to command.
XRIS I notice an absence of JEROME after I posted the less easy to defend scripture found in Numbers chapter 31
It is impossible to accept the whole of the bible as literal truth and real history can we xris?
Jerome you did not address my post about Numbers Chapter 31.Rationalise that Chapter in the light of a God of mercy and love?
Numbers Chapture 31?
I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.
"Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" [Ezekiel 33:11]
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him may have eternal life." [John 3:14-15]
"Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and does injustice, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered, but in his injustice that he has done he shall die." [Ezekiel 33:13]
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believe in the name of the only Son of God." [John 3:18]
This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
Numbers Chapter 31 Please explain!!!
1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Indianite's. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.
2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence. Love your enemies etc etc
"Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable are His ways!" [Romans 11:33]
"Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong." [Job 34:10]
"You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?"
3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient blood-letting- slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.
In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger
"While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying, 'The one I will kiss is the man; seize him.' And he came up to Jesus at once and said, 'Greetings, Rabbi!' And he kissed him. Jesus said to him, 'Friend, do what you came to do.' Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut of his ear. Then Jesus said to him, 'Put you sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?' At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, 'Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples left him and fled."
"From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, 'Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.' But He turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.'" [Matthew 16:21-23]
4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.
So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the "little boys". In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them. And when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, 'Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." [15-17]
For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying." Kill all the woman" except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.
There was definitely no gynaecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman's age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.
5) Now please learned rational bible scholar tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation.
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me" [John 5:46].
"Scripture cannot be broken" [John 10:35].
"I and my Father are one" [John 10:30].
"They [the Jews] said to him therefore, 'Where is your Father?' Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.'" [John 8:19]
"So Jesus said to them, 'When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.' As he was saying these things, many believed in him." [John 8:28-30]
"Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" [I Corinthians 1:20]
O how i tried reading this last post,o how i tried.This should be used as an example of fundamental thinking,its the best ive seen.To see the same god who permitted his prophet bears to eat the cheeky kids and say its the same god as "he who hurts one of these children should be cast into the deapest well",is beyond comprehension.
What education, what thinking can compare christ with a message of love with the god of horrors and say they are the same.
The god of the old testament was only interested in his tribe,the others had no rights no regard for being human.When did he actually say non jews could become jewish?Early christians where only jews, not one considered it a universal faith till paul intervened.
I will ask you again jerome what proof have you that Jesus was a historic figure.
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
