What is there in the bible that gives you authority to claim it is true?How do you prove that it is written by god?Not one of its scriptures can be historicaly proven.With this tremendous truth how can it be trusted?
If it is by faith alone, then no dogma can be attached to it.

According to fundamentalists, although we are all filthy sinners in the eyes of God, he welcomes into heaven some filthy human sinners and bans other equally filthy sinners from heaven for all eternity.

In fact this selective judgement gets worse, now you have sinners eating at Gods table and sinners who are no less bad burning in torment in a lake of fire forever and ever, day and night without ceasing there screams reaching up to heaven in their everlasting torment

We have to be found written into the Book of Life if not bad luck!

Revelations chapter 2 verse 23 And "I will kill her children with death"; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts;and "I will give unto everyone of you according to your works"

The problem with the above verse is that according to literal fundamentalst we are all haters of God all filthy sinners. This leads me to this question "I will give unto everyone of you according to your works But our "WORKS ARE ALL THE SAME, THEY END UP IN HEAVEN AND WE END UP IN HELL."

This is not fair judgement this is favourism at its worst

I see God as just and his mercy will go to those who deserve it, maybe God has a limit to his mercy in one scripture he says "I will not always strive with man", is an example

But I will never accept that God is going to eliminate or annihilate most of his created human beings or burn them in eternal torment

Sadly even the sweet agnostic old lady backing apple pie for here beloved grandchildren. Bad luck granny you did not accept the gospel so you are going to be thrown into the lake of fire to be tormented day and night forever.

This is the screwed logic I am trying to get any literal believing fundamentalist to rationalise to me and to themselves

Also, I regret Jerome's unfortunate end on these forums, and would even hope he's unbanned, as he is my brother in Christ. Still, if he's broken a rule, there's not much I can do about it.

I believe it takes God Himself to testify to His own Word, as it is, while not unreasonable, above reason. So no, I can't historically prove the truth of the Bible, only declare it's truth by God's authority, as I've been commanded.

Don't get me wrong. I plead with you to come to Christ and have faith, that you may be saved.

Let me give you a little example here: If the governor of a state visits the victims on death row, and uses his given right as governor to pardon one, he is not then obligated to pardon everyone from death row.

The only real problem here is that you're ignoring the systematic interpretation of the text by ignoring the context. Believers will have a greater work depending on their works, for example, is a viable interpretation of the above scripture, similar to when Christ tells His people to "build up your treasure in heaven".

'Fair' would be to have us all burn in hell forever. What do you think is better? Punish all, or save some and punish the rest?

But doesn't God Himself define what is just? Or can mankind invent it's own system of justice and then demand that God follow it or be called unjust?

Oh, I'm aware. Until God supernaturally converts a man, he'll never accept it.

You fail to realize that her act of not accepting the Gospel is incredibly evil. Evil enough to deserve the wrath of God.

By your words we shall know you and your words we surely know you brother.
You have not one itsy bit of evidence to prove god is in the bible but because someone told you its true you accept it.
Imagine you have never read the bible, your the only surviving human,you pick it up and read it.What authority has it got? If it has no historical proof its fiction, nothing more nothing less.
Do you honestly believe these scriptures worry me?If they have been written by any ethereal hand its the devils.A god who created us would or could understand, it is he who made us imperfect, so why in heavens name should he punish faulty goods of his own making?What madness is there in this book that consumes rational humans and turns them into blinkered bigots.

It is unfortunate that a supposed follower of Christ who be an example of Christianity would act in such a way... but, we're sorta used to that kind of thing. This is one reason I myself stay clear of that label of Christiantiy. Too many of them are running around the world angry and upset, trying the shove the same pill they swallowed down anothers' throat.

You've been commanded?.. By whom? If it takes God, show us God so that he may testify to the truth of the bible. This may be difficult considering man wrote that Bible and man described and created that God. Likewise, there are many men that are followers of other men.

Save yourself friend. If being saved means having to be ignorant or acting our like many of these good Christian examples, please take your Christ, your saviors, your Gods... 'Behind me Satan!'.

Did Christ tell them that? Where did Christ say heaven was? You do realize that all that Christ told the people were written decades after Christ died. There were no journals or notes take while Christ was here, the story was told long after Christ would have died. Those are all stories. Not to mention, if someone follows Christ and the ways of Christ in the bible, they do not go around condemning others or angry because others will not follow the myth as they follow. Some of us actually think, consider, ponder and investigate and desire to understand the truth of it all. Those of you with faith are faith alone because evidence is not there.

Oh, the fictitious hell with the mighty ruler Satan as our guide. Are you sure your not interpreting this too literally? Hell and heaven as I understand it is right here on earth and we create it daily.

It depends on if you believe in fairy tales and pink elephants. Man has already invented a justice system and it's used every day. I don't see the demands saying God must follow the justice system of man so not sure I understand what you are getting at. The justice system in place in this world was created by men, just as God was created by men and that's why we have so many varieties of both.

Is this a joke? Usually, when things are so bad and a person is experience his low, he or she will go to the Church and convert. This has everything to do with not wanting to be alone and needing the help of a church or the group of people in that church for support. It's about being a part of something greater. God doesn't convert man, man converts himself just as he types these words in the computer or gets in his car and goes to the store. God doesn't control these things, man does and man converts by his own decision. Problem in, many of them convert and then become soldiers or warriors for Christ when I don't remember that as a characteristic of Christ in the bible.

Says who, MAN? Wrath of God... OMG.


Listen, this is about the great flood and debunking it. You're in here trying to save people with your ever so wise words of BS. You've brought to the table not an understanding but an installation of fear based on how you interpret this bible so literally. You think you are commanded to do so and to preach the word of God and gain followers of Christ is the impression I get.

Here's the scoop, this is a philosophy forum, not a preaching BS forum. This forum is here for understanding and discussing things in greater detail among a group that desires to understand more and to discuss it peacefully without bashing each other over the heads or trying to convert people to 'our' way of thinking or our religion... whatever that may be.

So up front, in the past 4 years, fanatical born again Christians that come in here trying to preach the word are some of the angriest and hostile and unforgiving people in this forum. They bring hell in to this forum on their heels and try to spread it around to the rest of us. Sorry, but if you are going to come in here preaching or acting like a good Christian like we've seen displayed in Jerome and many others, I have to think that most of us want to part of that BS. If you want to talk nuts and bolts and believe what you will, fine but please refrain from preaching or saying that people are evil because they don't accept your way of thinking.

For once, can a Christian step up to the plate here and show us an example of Christianity by their actions and words? I've yet to see it in someone who calls themselves a Christian but I see a great many Atheists that are more Christ like than many of the Christians I've met.

The bible in NO WAY can be considered literal truth, unless you choose to believe it is. If you do, it's belief alone and there are other forums for this type of thing.

Please understand I'm not trying to be mean or judgmental but there a good many Christians out there that I wouldn't want to have on this forum because they talk the talk without walking the walk and in many ways are an embarrassment to the life of Christ.

Until God supernaturally converts a man, he'll never accept it.

So did god create Adam perfect or imperfect?

Wait a second, friend: what is unnatural about belief in God?

Maybe I'm just highlighting a poor choice of words, but if belief in God must be the result of supernatural conversion, then we are talking about an unnatural conversion and, thus, an unnatural belief.

Further, this whole notion that God preordains who is and who is not saved means that God pre-condemns people. I am one who disputes the supposed "Problem of Evil", but in this case you have created a very real and serious theological problem of evil - you have set up the theology of an deity who has no concern for the masses of people in his creation, the furthest thing from the loving God of whom Christ spoke.

"All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. . .

For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.'

I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

Nothing is unnatural about man believing in God. I was referring to a more personal relationship with God than just mental assent of His existence. It is unnatural for man to repent, though.

Well, a true faith in Jesus is unnatural belief, in that it defies human nature. That's why you need to be born again, remember?

God does pre-condemn people, I never denied that. That's not to say, however, that they don't deserve it. They do reject Him of their own will, after all.

Also, this God is the exact God that Christ spoke of:

I really doubt that this doctrine of predestination is new to you, Didymos Thomas. You seem to know quite a lot about the history of the Church.

So did god create Adam perfect or imperfect?

Puritan, if god made Adam perfect why did he fail,perfection never fails,if it does, its not perfect....

Also, let it be known that God did not make you imperfect. Your imperfection is inherited from Adam, because Adam sinned.

Well, I agree that most people who proclaim themselves to be Christian are unloving, but even so.

How can it be that the most attacked religion of the time can have even started, let alone thrive for thousands of years?

But it doesn't, by any means, mean you'll be ignorant! There are some very well educated Christians out there. May I direct you to John Owen, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Gordon H. Clark, James White, St. Augustine, Paul Washer, Jonathan Edwards, John Wesley, George Whitefield, Isaac Newton, and many more. Pretty much every great Christian writer was very knowledgeable in history and not at all ignorant.

The accounts of Christ's life were written by people who knew Him, or people who knew people who knew Him who based their gospel on ones already written. It doesn't have to have been written when He was alive to be a viable account of His life.

Well I would partially agree that there is a sense of heaven here in the life of the believer, because they can truly be in the presence of God and truly walk with God through prayer and such. Still, Jesus taught a real heaven and a real hell. Also, Satan isn't the ruler of hell, really. I don't know where that idea came from. The biblical description of hell would be the eternal wrath of God upon you.

Don't be confused, by friend. Hell is not hell because God's not there. Hell is hell because God is there, in the presence of those who deserve His wrath.

I'm not saying there's no justice system. I'm actually going to try and be a lawyer after my pre-university studies. My point was that we can't, as humans, construct a moral or justice system and then demand God follow it, as Mr. McDougall seems to be talking.

Biblically, God predestined which men would be converted and which would not from the beginning of the world. If you choose to deny this, then that's your decision. Many good and loving Christians reject this Calvinist doctrine.

Still, however, I must ask: You agree that many of the sins listed in the bible are human nature? (lust, etc.) And if so, how is it that man can ever fight this human nature, and even hate it as much as he does?

Actually, I was in here defending criticisms against the Bible. I've not pushed anyone to believe what I believe. I've pleaded them to, yes, but that's not in any way pushing them to.

Theology is, in fact, a branch of philosophy, and so I'm defending my theological beliefs. Is that not something a philosopher would do?

Well, I'd take the position that people are evil whether they accept my way of thinking or not. I've not once called myself better than any other member of this forum. I've not thrown insults at people, or attacked them personally (though I do remember a case where my language may have hinted otherwise, and I apologize for that). If I've broken a single rule, I'd ask that it be made known to me and I'll quickly correct it.

Please understand that all I'm doing here is explaining my beliefs. I understand that my beliefs can be somewhat harsh, but that neither makes them any less true, or makes me any more unloving. In fact, most of my closest friends aren't even Christian.

No offense, but I found it kind of funny how you basically just said 'the bible can't be considered truth unless it's considered truth'.

I understand. You're a forum admin and you must keep order in your forum. Also, I'd be the first to admit that I'm an embarrassment to the life of Christ, for different reasons.

Faith in Jesus does not defy human nature - it is demonstrably false to claim otherwise. The simple fact that people do have faith in Jesus, absence of anything supernatural, is irrefutable evidence that such belief is quite natural to humans.

Yeah - my point is that because you say that God pre-condemns people, that you invite a very serious problem, and that is to reconcile a loving God with a God who creates men, living men who suffer, who have absolutely no chance of reaching the Kingdom of God: you are asserting a God who creates men who can do nothing but suffer.

Faith in Jesus under the interpretation of the Church who's foundation is fear. That's our human nature.

This idea is based again on fear. Nothing more. Our lives are controlled by this fear.

therefore is only harmed by our illusion of separation from not only each other, but from what we consider to be God.

The second coming of Christ is not going to be a deity floating in from above, it's going to be a shift in conscious awareness and a birth of the Christ consciousness within humankind. A caterpillar becoming a butterfly, if you will. A complete transformation from a seed in a womb of a woman to a birthing of a new reality and a new understanding that we are ALL saved and we are all connected and we are all living in a dream of illusion based on fear.

As for Noah and much of the bible, it can almost all be debunked as we get closer to knowing ourselves, our spiritual selves and our oneness within this world we perceive to be separate. We are the script writers and we are the play.

Justin you posted
You see, this, in and of itself is hypocrisy. Where there is God or perfection, there can be no imperfection. Where this is joy and love there can be no evil and hate. Mankind in his separation with the Oneness of God and creation developed the ideas of a dual force, one being God, one being Satan when there is only God. Our perception of the world being a material world clothed with imperfection causes us to place blame or create another force driving us away from God. This force we call evil yet there is no evil because there is only God. One thing divided in sexed opposites of One Light of God experiencing the physical world. The good and evil are forces created in the minds of man separate from the unity and divinity of the one, seemingly supernatural force we label God.

God or the idea of God is both omnipresent and omnipotent making God Absolute, correct? So if there is only God then how can there be any imperfection? The imperfection we inherit is due to our separation with the One God.

Therefore, God is all there is and imperfection is not. The only imperfection is the imperfection we perceive which is an illusion.

I am confused. Is there imperfection or is there not? An illusion of imperfection is itself an imperfection, it seems to me. Separation from God is an imperfection. If there is only God and perfection, nothing bad can arise; yet it has arisen. Calling badness an illusion does not solve the problem, since an illusion of badness is a bad thing.

Goodness can only reinforce itself; it cannot produce evil (just as in mathematics the use of only plus signs cannot produce a negative quantity). Evil things, on the other hand, can either reinforce or conflict with one another, producing either good or evil (minus signs can produce either positive or negative quantities).

I am confused. Is there imperfection or is there not? An illusion of imperfection is itself an imperfection, it seems to me. Separation from God is an imperfection. If there is only God and perfection, nothing bad can arise; yet it has arisen. Calling badness an illusion does not solve the problem, since an illusion of badness is a bad thing.

Goodness can only reinforce itself; it cannot produce evil (just as in mathematics the use of only plus signs cannot produce a negative quantity). Evil things, on the other hand, can either reinforce or conflict with one another, producing either good or evil (minus signs can produce either positive or negative quantities).

Can you apply human attributes to an infinite entity like God? In my opinion God is neither Good or Bad God is that which

"IS"

Maybe there is no known adjective for God!