Debunking the literal truth of Noah and the great flood

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JEROME phil
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:01 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;77117 wrote:
Jerome you really should learn to control your temper and try to be respectful of those who hold views other than your own. Your bitterness detracts from your argument.


Your advice is most appreciated, RDRDRD1. However, I do disagree that bitterness detracts from arguments, as the some of the greatest disputations are decidedly polemical in nature.:letme-at-em:
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 11:57 pm
@JEROME phil,
JEROME;77119 wrote:
Your advice is most appreciated, RDRDRD1. However, I do disagree that bitterness detracts from arguments, as the some of the greatest disputations are decidedly polemical in nature.:letme-at-em:


Jerome you sum up my essence too quickly. The bible is full of beauty love and truth and I have no bitterness within my being

But believing the , as exact and literal does offer great difficulties. Take the instruction Jesus once said. "If your hand offends you cut it off better to enter heaven with one hand than hell with two" or, "if your eye offends you pluck it out better to enter heaven with one eye than hell with two"

I know I know Jesus did not mean this literally but many think he did and therein lays the dilemma

Now the problem is that a few people have actually done that awful self mutilation cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 12:40 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;77072 wrote:
Xris - please provide some reference to support your contention of a great flood around the globe in which "many low lying land and coastal settlements disappeared beneath the sea." There was a documented flooding event in the Med and that is common to several ancient religions but I've heard of no actual global event.
India's lost city discovered under water there are many such stories.
 
RDRDRD1
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 01:56 pm
@Alan McDougall,
It's known there was an enormous sea level rise that accompanied the end of the last great ice age but that would have been a process spanning several centuries, not exactly what I would consider a flood in the 40-days/40-nights Biblical sense of a sudden event that extinguished mankind. It would be a pretty good trick to make that mind-boggling volume of water appear and then vanish without trace.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 02:50 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;77250 wrote:
It's known there was an enormous sea level rise that accompanied the end of the last great ice age but that would have been a process spanning several centuries, not exactly what I would consider a flood in the 40-days/40-nights Biblical sense of a sudden event that extinguished mankind. It would be a pretty good trick to make that mind-boggling volume of water appear and then vanish without trace.
I never made that claim,you said it was confined to mediterranean and asked me for other occassions.The biblical flood is an interpretation that many suffered,it could have risen very quickly if trapped sea water was released by a catastrophe.
 
LWSleeth
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 03:22 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;77048 wrote:
Some time ago Jon Stewart had a bible scholar on his show, a Born Again fundamentalist. The fellow was so determined to prove biblical inerrancy that he studied and mastered ancient Greek in order to read the oldest surviving biblical texts. Not only did he find them riddled with irreconcilable contradictions, he found parables that are incorporated in today's Bible that actually began as marginal notations, apparent fables, in the early texts that only materialized centuries after the death of Christ. He wrote a book that chronicled his findings but lamented that the dogma of inerrancy, the "literal word of God" thing remains far too entrenched to be repudiated.


The problem for someone attempting this kind of "proof" is that he brings the modern rules of evidence to bear on his rationales, rules that are grounded in science. If Stewart (and others) maintained the truth of the Bible was, say, known through inspiration, then who can argue against that? But as soon as he claims it is objectively true, he has to make his case with proper evidence (not just with random tidbits questionably interpreted in support his proposals). Fans of the philosopher Karl Popper appreciate his point that just about any theory is supportable with evidence, but such "corroboration" may only be considered plausible if the theory has the potential to be proven false.


RDRDRD1;77048 wrote:
There have been many studies over the past four decades demonstrating the sizeable percentage of Americans who embrace biblical inerrancy. You might get more from visiting here: Biblical inerrancy - The Mainstream Evangelical Protestant Position in America[/u]


Very true (as I personally have experienced from having been raised in a Baptist family). However, I don't see the point of "debunking" the practice of embracing Biblical inerrancy . . . who's the audience? Those who believe that way will never change their minds based on logic and evidence since that's decidedly not how they came to their beliefs in the first place; and those of us who are certain it can't be literally true obviously don't need such myths debunked.

---------- Post added 07-14-2009 at 03:10 PM ----------

JEROME;77102 wrote:
. . . to deny Scripture in part is to deny it in whole.


That logic has never made a lick of sense to me. I deny, as most experts do, that the Pentateuch is free of redactions by later editors (and therefore we don't have the "original" Bible); and I deny anything supernatural ever happened, but rather it was a way of adding the sense of mystery and awe people felt about various events.

Yet I accept a great deal of the accounts found in the Bible too.

Now, if you personally find it impossible to read the Bible critically, you should have said that instead of stating a general principle for all Christians (not that I am a Christian).


JEROME;77102 wrote:
A Christian's faith rests on the objective authority of Scripture, even though they cannot fathom the depths of its mysteries, whether they be of God [the Trinity; the Hypostatic Union; etc.] or creation [the origin of evil; the six days; the flood; etc.].


Nope. For some Christians, the Bible's accuracy and their faith are linked. But for others, the Bible is merely seen as a tool for giving insight into a people's struggle to know God (primarily the OT), as a source of inspiration, and a way to acquire a sense of Jesus.

I love to ask the Jehovah's Witnesses who come here trying to get me to accept all that's in the Bible if they believe anyone became a "true" Christian when Jesus first came on the scene . . . i.e., before his purported resurrection, miracles, being identified as the "son of God," and, especially, before there was a Bible mentioning Jesus. Even if they answer they don't know, I press them to answer hypothetically, "But what IF someone met Jesus when he first appeared, accepted and believed in him, and then died instantly without knowing any of the doctrines and beliefs about him that were to develop later . . . was he saved?" Was the thief crucified next to Jesus saved without knowing Jesus would rise from the dead, if there is a heaven or hell, without a Bible to believe in, or anything else except that Jesus had moved him faith? If in any way you can answer someone could be saved by faith in Jesus alone, then we don't need all the religious accoutrements added over the centuries by (? . . who knows).

I think it ironic how the insistence by some Christians that the Bible and religious dogma be blindly accepted before one is accepted as a Christian is responsible today for much religious disenchantment and even atheism.
 
RDRDRD1
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 05:26 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I agree with Chris Hedges that today's world is beset by a plague of fundamentalism - Muslim, Jewish and Christian. He has a fascinating discussion of that in his book American Fascists.
 
JEROME phil
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 06:54 pm
@LWSleeth,
LWSleeth writes:

Quote:
Now, if you personally find it impossible to read the Bible critically, you should have said that instead of stating a general principle for all Christians (not that I am a Christian).


What makes one a Christian then, LWSleek?

JEROME
 
LWSleeth
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 07:15 pm
@JEROME phil,
JEROME;77298 wrote:
LWSleeth writes:



What makes one a Christian then, LWSleek?

JEROME


Was your misspelling of my name an expression of disrespect? If so, we'll not be exchanging ideas.

But just in case your spelling was an honest mistake, my answer is that to be a Christian should be what Jesus required when he walked the Earth, and no more. If he said "believe in me," that couldn't have meant the resurrection if it hadn't happened yet, nor miracles if a person had never observed one. In his presence was all that was needed to accept his gift. That gift is an inner experience, and it requires an opening of the heart, not a set of beliefs or rituals or behaviors.

But some religions have us thinking like God is magic, and preaches what essentially boils down to behaviorism. Be good, like a kid with his parents, and you'll get into heaven. Faith is accepting Jesus' resurrection, that he is the son of God, etc. Yet belief never seems to make a person happy or wise or enlightened, so how can belief be all that Jesus had to offer? So what if he could walk on water, and I believe it, how does that help me?

I want to be happy now, and when I open my heart to a teacher like Jesus, that's what I feel. So I guess I'm saying that I think Jesus is known through our feeling nature, not through our abilities with belief and behaviors.
 
JEROME phil
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 07:34 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougal writes (with the heart of a poet-- weak and illusionary):

Quote:
Jerome you sum up my essence too quickly. The bible is full of beauty love and truth and I have no bitterness within my being


Your "compliments" of the Biblical text are nothing more than empty rhetoric. For we are speaking with a chasm between us: I, on the one hand, assert the full authoritative, verbal inspiration of Scripture; whereas you, on the other, find Scripture to be no more "beautiful" or "lovely" than pagan poetry. Of course the Bible is "beautiful", of course it is "lovely"; the question remains the same, however: is it true?

And again:
Quote:
But believing the , as exact and literal does offer great difficulties. Take the instruction Jesus once said. "If your hand offends you cut it off better to enter heaven with one hand than hell with two" or, "if your eye offends you pluck it out better to enter heaven with one eye than hell with two"

I know I know Jesus did not mean this literally but many think he did and therein lays the dilemma

Now the problem is that a few people have actually done that awful self mutilation cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes.


Let us first distinguish between a literal interpretation, and a literalistic one. The former sees no difficulty in the aforementioned passage of Matthew 5:29-30; for it certainly is better for one to pluck out that sinning member of the flesh than to have the whole body surrendered to flames. The latter, however, becomes fixated on the words to the point of believing it to be a principle of practice. The reason for this faulty interpretation is due to another missed distinction, namely, the Law and the Gospel. That is to say, the Law tells us that we are damned unless we abide by the whole of God's written command; it reveals how our minds are corrupt; our tongues deceitful; and our hearts wicked. Contrariwise, the Gospel tells us that we are justified by no work, merit, or action of our own, but on the sole merit of another, namely, Christ. Therefore, by interpreting the Law for the Gospel, or the Gospel for the Law, we destroy the literal meaning of the text and are left only with our own obscure notions of God's will and intent toward us.

However, in addressing the matter of the perspicuity of Scripture, I did not mean to convey that there are not passages which, indeed, are obscure, but only that, where those passages are obscured, there are several other places where they are clear. For years Christian missionaries used only the Gospel of Matthew to teach the entire Christian doctrine to the heathen. Scripture plainly teaches the truths of Christ's satisfactio vicaria (the atonement), the fides divina (saving faith from God), and scriptura sua radiat luce (the Scriptures are their own light).

From this it follows that when Genesis states that God created the heavens and the earth in six days, that Adam fell into sin, that a flood swept over the face of the whole earth: it is written to be believed (though most reject it), not made to conform our own theological cravings and senses.

Here are much needed dogmatic words for a much wanting undogmatic age:
Scriptura sacra locuta, res decisa est. (the Holy Scriptures have spoken, the issue is decided)

JEROME

---------- Post added 07-14-2009 at 08:39 PM ----------

LWSleeth writes:
Quote:
Was your misspelling of my name an expression of disrespect? If so, we'll not be exchanging ideas...But just in case your spelling was an honest mistake, my answer is...


Indeed, I apologize for the misunderstanding. It was a genuine error and misspelling.

However, I have not the time tonight to respond adequately to what you have written. I will respond tomorrow.


JEROME
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 10:34 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Jesus said

"It is easy to love those that love you, but I tell you to love those who hate you and despitefully abuse you and say all many of evil against you falsely".

Jerome!! Jerome???

"Let he that is without sin cast the first stone"
.

Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome

"My people perish for lack of knowledge"

Oh! Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome

Some of us on the forum are not illiterate hypocrites some of us are nice friendly open minded folk why don't you join us dear JEROME?
 
LWSleeth
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 11:42 pm
@JEROME phil,
JEROME;77306 wrote:
Indeed, I apologize for the misunderstanding. It was a genuine error and misspelling.

However, I have not the time tonight to respond adequately to what you have written. I will respond tomorrow.


JEROME


[SIZE="3"]To keep this simple, how about we limit our exchange to the hypothetical I presented in my last post, except I'll broaden it a bit. My question is, essentially, is it possible to be a devotee of Jesus by only relating to Jesus? For example, if I were going to be a devotee of Jesus, I'd only consider words attributed to him. I might read others' accounts (such as those found in the Gospels) searching for how Jesus "felt" to those writers (whoever they were), but their own personal interpretations would hold no weight unless they jived with what I personally took from my study of and feel for Jesus.

In this approach, nothing said by anyone but Jesus is considered automatically true. So I am free to reject every religious concept, belief, ritual and anything else that wasn't directly taught by Jesus himself. Of course, that includes the belief that the Bible is inerrant and that I must believe, follow or obey it in order to be a "true" Christian.

The little thought problem I presented to justify my way of being a Christian was to ask if someone could be a true devotee of Jesus while he was alive; i.e., before the resurrection, before the NT, before all church dogma was developed, etc. It is obviously ridiculous to think Jesus needed any of that stuff to help him create "Christians," and if so, then neither are they needed now.[/SIZE]
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 02:12 am
@Alan McDougall,
LWSleeth and JEROME and All

Jesus "did not preach grace" Paul the debatable apostle did. In the gospels attributed to Jesus, even the slightest minutest sin would send you to hell, unless you repented day and night

Looking at a beautiful girl/or man with some degree of lust would put you in hell. Any walk in the mall would confine this mortal to eternal damnation. Unless I mumble in my beard please foregive me lord for sinning by fantasising in my very evil mind I ask your forgiveness as I battle through this sea of sin

There is no forgive for divorce unless the spouse is caught fornicating, but even then you cannot remarry if you do not want to end in hell.

We are expected to fight against the very nature God hard wired into us Like my brother Roger once said the Christian fundamental "Fun Police" are out in force to prevent any sort of enjoyment. Heck man even eating is a sin.

So what can I do about this dilemma All I can do is tear off my clothes bang my chest and cry out to God I was a sinner I am a sinner and I always will be a sinner.

I am not a Catholic and this rant is not against reasonable thinking religious folk , just the brain washing of some religious organisations etc, amongst them of course those that insist the age of the earth and the entire universe is some six thousand and forty years or as JEROME ridiculous suggestion that just some five thousand years age mount Everest popped up and the whole grand canyon was created By the flood in a few years
 
JEROME phil
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 07:55 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;77347 wrote:
Jesus said

"It is easy to love those that love you, but I tell you to love those who hate you and despitefully abuse you and say all many of evil against you falsely".

Jerome!! Jerome???

"Let he that is without sin cast the first stone"
.

Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome

"My people perish for lack of knowledge"

Oh! Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome Jerome

Some of us on the forum are not illiterate hypocrites some of us are nice friendly open minded folk why don't you join us dear JEROME?


What are you babbling about, Al?

Could you please relate these passages to anything I have written; otherwise I do not know what I am responding to.


JEROME
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 08:28 am
@JEROME phil,
Quote:
JEROME;77397 wrote:
What are you babbling about, Al?

Could you please relate these passages to anything I have written; otherwise I do not know what I am responding to.


JEROME


As evidenced by your own immodest speculations, I doubt very much that your thinking ever extends beyond the stony (and brittle) confines of your own bloated cranium...with all due respect, sir.

What scientific rationale, then, leads you to presuppose that the existence of Mt. Everest, or the mountains of Judea for that matter, precedes the Noahic flood?

JEROME


Babbling no surprised yes and disappointed in one who is supposed to be a Christian RANTING in the unpleasant manner you did above "extends beyond the stony (and brittler) confined of your own cranium" you said that to me?

It is your skull that is brittle and it is confined to force-fed dogma. Your interllect, likewise, has been submerged by the brain washing fundamentalism, just as mine was as a child.

But now I am a man and I have put childish things behind me
If you are a true Christian then you would not say hurtful things but try to convince me of my wrongs by the truth of love and light


 
xris
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 09:22 am
@JEROME phil,
JEROME;77397 wrote:
What are you babbling about, Al?

Could you please relate these passages to anything I have written; otherwise I do not know what I am responding to.


JEROME
You may not follow Alans thread but it does not allow you to be abusive,even us heathens can show respect.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 10:32 am
@xris,
xris;77410 wrote:
You may not follow Alans thread but it does not allow you to be abusive,even us heathens can show respect.


Xris you might remember a previous thread where I wrote an essay to my brother Roger? Both he and I and the other siblings were force fed this only we are right garbage, the rest of humanity are damned to burn in hell forever

I reject this awful idea with all my being it makes god worse that any human psychopath inflicting infinite punishment for finite transgressions That is not righteous justness that is cruelty of the worst kind

Below is a short excerpt about the fundamental group that invaded the privacy of our homes and made us aliens in the little South African town we lived in at the time

I believe this group had much to do with my mental illness, not god or Jesus, this groups evil interpretation of what, and whom god is

Like all exclusive fundamental cults their beliefs are based on silly lies, for instance they say they are a continuation of the apostles and their membership go back to the time of the New Testament



The Church with no name
(a.k.a. "Two by Twos")


[CENTER]http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topruled.gif[/CENTER]
[CENTER] Sponsored link. [/CENTER]
http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topruled.gif Overview:

The world at large often calls them "Two by Twos" because of their tradition of sending pairs of missionaries to evangelize the "unsaved." They have also been called The Black Stockings, The Church Without a Name, Cooneyites, the Damnation Army, Dippers, Go Preachers, Irvinites, The Jesus-Way, Nameless House Church, The New Testament Church, No-Name Church, The No-Secters, The Non-Denominational Church, Pilgrims, The Reidites, The Secret Sect, Tramp Preachers, The Testimony, The Truth, The Saints, Truthers, The Way, and Workers.


However, they refer to each other simply as Christians and as Friends. They often call their group "The Jesus Way." They are an almost invisible group whose numbers may be in the tens or hundreds of thousands.

No membership numbers are formally published.
They believe that the Gospel is only effectively taught if communicated on a person-to-person basis. Teams of two members of the same sex go into the world in pairs to spread the gospel. In many ways, they are replicating the followers of Jesus circa 30 CE. The author of the gospel of Mark described how Jesus sent his followers throughout Palestine:[INDENT] Mark 6:7-12: "And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff-- no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts-- but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics. Also He said to them, 'In whatever place you enter a house, stay there till you depart from that place. And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!' So they went out and preached that people should repent." (NKJ)
[/INDENT]One difference between the two-by-twos and Jesus' disciples is that Jesus instructed his followers to avoid Gentiles and the cities of the Samaritans (Matthew 10:5). The Gospel was to be spread to Jews only - to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 10:6).
[CENTER]http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topruled.gif[/CENTER]
History:

The movement was founded in William Irvine, (1863-1947) a Scotsman. Some sources say that he came from County Tipperary, Ireland; others say he was from Kilsyth, Scotland. He joined the Faith Mission in 1895, and traveled to rural areas of Scotland and Ireland as a lay evangelist. He left the organization in 1901, taking some young preachers with him, including George Walker, Eddie Cooney, Jack Carroll and Irvine Weir. He was inspired by texts in Matthew and Luke and organized a group to continue itinerant preaching in the 20th century.

Their first convention was held in Ireland in 1903. 70 followers attended. Irvine then left with two members to evangelize North America. Other pairs of workers were sent to Australia, China, Germany, New Zealand, South Africa and South America. The movement grew rapidly; 2,000 attended the 1910 convention in the UK. They called their spiritual path "The Truth" and "The Testimony." Believers accepted Irvine as the "Alpha Prophet" spoken of in Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Acts 3:20-23.

In 1908, Irvine developed a two-tier membership structure, consisting of workers and ordinary members. The workers (a.k.a. senior brothers, senior servants) were full-time missionaries; the members typically worked at regular employment and supported the workers financially. Irvine also organized a system of overseers to have authority over all of the workers in a given geographical area. The existence of overseers was not revealed to the general membership.

Irvine developed some unusual doctrines. He taught that it might be possible for 2X2 members to travel to other planets and act as saviors of other civilizations.
He identified his group with the remnant of 144,000 people mentioned in Revelation. He developed his "Omega Gospel, " or "Omega Truth" in which he taught that Christ had chosen him to announce that the end of the "age of Grace" was coming in 1914-AUG. After that date, no additional people could be saved. The "final judgement" would then follow. These beliefs were a direct challenge to the overseers and workers; if the group accepted the new doctrines, then the workers would have no further function to perform.

(THE WHOLE BUNCH OF FUNDAMENTALISTS NO MATTER WHAT CULT OR DENOMINATION ALL SAY IT IS ONLY THEY THAT ARE THE 144 000 THOUSAND SAVED ONES AND THE REST OF US JUST BURN IN HELL (MY COMMENT ALAN)




A theological split over this prophecy developed. Irvine was ousted from the group in 1914-APR because, it was claimed, he had "lost the Lord's anointing." Since the time of Irvine's departure, the organization has been led by the overseers. In time, his leadership and even his existence were forgotten by many. The movement became less open to the public, and disappeared from common view.


Edward Cooney was a prominent worker in the original group. He apparently saw himself as a replacement for Irvine. He openly disagreed with certain doctrines, and with the necessity of holding conventions. Cooney proposed that the movement return to its original roots in which all members were workers. He suffered the same fate as Irvine: in 1928, he was excommunicated. He died at the age of 93 in 1961.


 
xris
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 11:47 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan on a still summers evening i can hear the sound of pans pipes drifting across the mist covered valley and smell honeysuckle in the air.I believe in fairies and many chuckle at my admission but then fundamentalist fools, all of them, think i am a heathen and need salvation.I have respect for those who have found their god but blind obedience to scriptures bewilders me.
Christ never intended this dogmatic attitude he came with a message of love not this autocratic zealot manic crap.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 12:51 pm
@Alan McDougall,
the term 40 days and 40 nights
is a idiom used throughout the bible to designate a lengthy period of time

when someone says 'its raining cats and dogs' they do
not mean that literally there are animals falling outside of the sky

when they say 'all the mountains were covered'
its quite normal to mean 'almost all'

like if i say 'night is dark'
i do not mean that candles do not give off light at night time

also note the verse that says
'the sun stood still in the sky for 40 days'

- again the 40-day term is used - and i could quite easily see that what is meant
is that the day SEEMED to last for 40 days because it was an eventful day

in recent times we would express this as
'the day dragged on forever'

if the reader wants to they can pedantically nitpick at every word in a sentence
deliberately finding false meaning in allegorical language

instead, they could explore the nature of language and euphamism
if the words seem to be hyperbolic

the black sea flood has been suggested as the flood of noah,
but its quite plausible that more than one flood
has been condensed into one story
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 15 Jul, 2009 01:36 pm
@Alan McDougall,
The flood between the Mediterranean sea and the Black sea is a arguably suggestion , but that flood did not cover all the mountains in the world.
 
 

 
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