Debunking the literal truth of Noah and the great flood

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xris
 
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 02:30 pm
@Justin,
Justin the question posed by me,was to Puritan and his view of creation.He claimed Adam was created perfect,now you have widened the debate away from his dogmatic approach but the question still remains for Puritan to answer.I dont believe in any god who can be known,so it is for me an academic exercise on how the faithful secure their belief system by a logic we should all apply.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Fri 14 Aug, 2009 05:43 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Illusion, perfection,right versus wrong, good versus evil.

these things are always a matter of personal definition. Religious conviction is a matter of personal choice. The choice to deny god in a world that is mostly godfearing is a personal choice.

Who is to say what is righteous and who will declare what is truth?

Everything that is being discussed here is rooted in man's natural curiosity to explain the world around him to help him become more comfortable and familiar with those things that he is uncertain about. Faith is attained when he resorts to actually convincing himself that he has discovered a truth that he can now settle on and commit himself to.

But in reality it always has been and always will be mere choice of expression and understanding.

So whether or not god makes mistakes, Adam was created perfect and fell, or this entire universe is a pure and simple accidental anomaly the truth is that all are mere perspectives of observation and thought. Personal creations of the mind that remain to be proven and or come to fruition of some sort.

Until that time comes, if it ever does, beating ones head against the bricks will continue to be a means only to blurred vision.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:05 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83334 wrote:
Illusion, perfection,right versus wrong, good versus evil.

these things are always a matter of personal definition. Religious conviction is a matter of personal choice. The choice to deny god in a world that is mostly godfearing is a personal choice.

Who is to say what is righteous and who will declare what is truth?

Everything that is being discussed here is rooted in man's natural curiosity to explain the world around him to help him become more comfortable and familiar with those things that he is uncertain about. Faith is attained when he resorts to actually convincing himself that he has discovered a truth that he can now settle on and commit himself to.

But in reality it always has been and always will be mere choice of expression and understanding.

So whether or not god makes mistakes, Adam was created perfect and fell, or this entire universe is a pure and simple accidental anomaly the truth is that all are mere perspectives of observation and thought. Personal creations of the mind that remain to be proven and or come to fruition of some sort.

Until that time comes, if it ever does, beating ones head against the bricks will continue to be a means only to blurred vision.
Perfection does not fail,its not complicated.He did not exactly fail on the last hurdle.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:21 am
@xris,
sorry Xris, but perfection as defined by whose standard?

For that stand you will have to tell us what definition of perfection it is that you personally choose to define what meets your personal choice of perfection as you would like to see it.

It always boils down to the properties of personal opinion and choice to believe and/or accept.

Eye of the beholder my friend.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 04:20 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83400 wrote:
sorry Xris, but perfection as defined by whose standard?

For that stand you will have to tell us what definition of perfection it is that you personally choose to define what meets your personal choice of perfection as you would like to see it.

It always boils down to the properties of personal opinion and choice to believe and/or accept.

Eye of the beholder my friend.
How could you not describe perfection in any other way but perfect.Can you imagine a car manufacturer saying their cars are perfect and then the dam thing breaks down.Religious logic is never an exact science but if someone wants to sell me an idea it has to be perfect.Something that fails the test of its makers choosing, is not pefect.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 10:40 am
@xris,
again, what you define as perfection may not be my idea of perfection.

A car with 2 doors may be perfect for me while you would consider it less than perfect because of its lack of access to the rear seat.

Is life with the counterbalance of good and evil a perfect creation or would perfection have been an existence without evil. Some say evil is necessary to know the extent of what is good.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 12:01 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83449 wrote:
again, what you define as perfection may not be my idea of perfection.

A car with 2 doors may be perfect for me while you would consider it less than perfect because of its lack of access to the rear seat.

Is life with the counterbalance of good and evil a perfect creation or would perfection have been an existence without evil. Some say evil is necessary to know the extent of what is good.

If you think the idea of perfection is two door car,what can i say? Good and bad aint perfect and imperfect.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 02:56 pm
@xris,
xris;83397 wrote:
Perfection does not fail,its not complicated.He did not exactly fail on the last hurdle.


I agree with you xris A perfect human could never become fallible.Assuming Adam really existence he must have been created innocent not perfect. If he were created perfect he would never have failed the test of not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Being perfect he would have fully understood commandment and never disobeyed God

Adam , therefore, was innocent not perfect
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 05:11 pm
@Alan McDougall,
But what if God's intention was for Adam to fail the test for some purpose of introducing choice, evil, temptation, etc, etc into creation?

If this was all part of the big plan than Adam did perfectly what was expected of him. If God's plan was to create a situation where He knew Adam would disobey and further His bigger plan, than the fall of Adam was part of a perfect plan, and therefore perfect in its fruition.

We do not know! we have only the interpretations of others to make theories of, and we cannot and should not attempt to define perfection according to our own interpretation of their interpretation.

Nobody knows the truth of creation, or whether or not God intended all that has happened since day1. If God is perfect than all these mishaps along the way must be part of His plan.

Is it possible that He has tolerated free will and allowed it to alter what may have been His plan for His creation? Who would dare to answer that with authority. Christ did, but that is still debated to this day and only accounted for by the blind faith of His followers.

By faith we deliberately believe in what we choose to accept is the closest thing to our hopes for what may be the truth. But we must do so blindly as we do not have the final answers.

Because of that fact, we cannot define what may or may not be perfect.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 10:57 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83497 wrote:
But what if God's intention was for Adam to fail the test for some purpose of introducing choice, evil, temptation, etc, etc into creation?

If this was all part of the big plan than Adam did perfectly what was expected of him. If God's plan was to create a situation where He knew Adam would disobey and further His bigger plan, than the fall of Adam was part of a perfect plan, and therefore perfect in its fruition.

We do not know! we have only the interpretations of others to make theories of, and we cannot and should not attempt to define perfection according to our own interpretation of their interpretation.

Nobody knows the truth of creation, or whether or not God intended all that has happened since day1. If God is perfect than all these mishaps along the way must be part of His plan.

Is it possible that He has tolerated free will and allowed it to alter what may have been His plan for His creation? Who would dare to answer that with authority. Christ did, but that is still debated to this day and only accounted for by the blind faith of His followers.

By faith we deliberately believe in what we choose to accept is the closest thing to our hopes for what may be the truth. But we must do so blindly as we do not have the final answers.

Because of that fact, we cannot define what may or may not be perfect.


I think it was Gods intention that Adam fail the test so that Adam and his offspring could experience life instead of living in a paradise where their every need was fulfilled. To live in an environment where one never experience anything negative like cold, hunger, thirst work etc would soon become a boring hell.We need opposites to enjoy life. If it is cold outside one can snuggle up in front of a fire and enjoy the glow of warmth. We have to experience thirst to enjoy a glass of water
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 05:43 am
@Alan McDougall,
Hi Alan,

Nice to hear from you once again.

It is a fact that the enjoyment and appreciation of a thing is more greatly enhanced by the lack of it in the first place. So which is perfect than. Life with the contrast or life without the contrast where nothing would be diseased or suffered in any way from affliction of any kind?

That is the question? Which does one choose to define as perfection? Some would say that perfection is the lack of any corruption or affliction, and than others like yourself would define it as the ability to appreciate through the experience of the lack of. Which is the accurate definition of perfection and who gets to decide which and by what authority?

No, perfection is like the eye of the beholder thing. Personal opinion. garbage may be far from perfection to me, but the rats sure as hell love it.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 07:50 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83557 wrote:
Hi Alan,

Nice to hear from you once again.

It is a fact that the enjoyment and appreciation of a thing is more greatly enhanced by the lack of it in the first place. So which is perfect than. Life with the contrast or life without the contrast where nothing would be diseased or suffered in any way from affliction of any kind?

That is the question? Which does one choose to define as perfection? Some would say that perfection is the lack of any corruption or affliction, and than others like yourself would define it as the ability to appreciate through the experience of the lack of. Which is the accurate definition of perfection and who gets to decide which and by what authority?

No, perfection is like the eye of the beholder thing. Personal opinion. garbage may be far from perfection to me, but the rats sure as hell love it.


Hi nice to commune with you again

Your comments are valid and true, but if we are considering Adam and God if God had truly made him perfect he would have been perfect in deed. Adam being perfect would have known exactly the awful outcome of disobeying God because he would have been perfect in knowledge and truth

I still see Adam metaphorically or literal as innocent only an innocent person can have a free will don't you suppose?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 10:04 am
@Alan McDougall,
not sure how to respond to that Alan,

I still see it as your defining your idea of perfection.

Ans there are many murderering thieves who act of their own free will that I would not define innocence.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 05:19 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;83579 wrote:
not sure how to respond to that Alan,

I still see it as your defining your idea of perfection.

Ans there are many murderering thieves who act of their own free will that I would not define innocence.
God is defining pefect,not me.If he has decided what the rules are and if you break them you go to hell,then thats his definition that has been broken. Now if he knows that Adam was going to break them,he should know dont you think?then whose fault is it? If he had have made him that perfect, he would then have know that Adam would not have broken his rules.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 05:41 am
@Alan McDougall,
Xris,

Does your God also take week old kittens and stand back and let them walk off the edge of cliff to their deaths?

As horrid as that sounds what you are suggesting is even worse, for the poor kitten would at least have an immediate death, but those created by the God that you have devised cannot even die, they must also suffer an eternal hell as well.

Free will seems to portray your God as a monster of the most extreme definition I can imagine. I don't think even Charles Manson could sit back and watch a being suffer eternal damnation. Any being that could is not a being that I want to ever encounter.

I cannot believe that whatever is responsible for this creation around us is as cruel as what you have described. I would also rather not have free will if that is its price.

Of all the personal speculations and imaginings of what the true creator of this universe might possibly be, you deliberately choose to believe the judgemental enforcer of eternal hellfire is the real one. That is a choice of faith that you make personally.

I choose to believe that man has no proof of anything with regards to the identity of the creator. There is much evidence to be considered, but no proof. Blind faith is required. I have no blind faith in anything and yet my mind is open to consider anything.

However, a creator that allows for a meteor to eradicate a planet full of life, life which than dies, is one thing; but a creator that creates life to knowingly have it suffer in an eternal hell, is another horror story altogether.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 05:48 am
@Pathfinder,
I asked Puritan a question that you attempted to answer. I have no god, im questioning anothers logic on his faith. If his god knowingly made his creation imperfect , why punish it for his error ?
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 10:05 pm
@Alan McDougall,
The question still stands. But I will pose it differently:_

If the Bible is the exact literal truth and if you were a fundamental believing Christian or Jew or Moslem would you carry out the very same acts of cruelty that God supposedly asked Moses and his army to do against the Midianite people??
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 04:49 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;83924 wrote:
The question still stands. But I will pose it differently:_

If the Bible is the exact literal truth and if you were a fundamental believing Christian or Jew or Moslem would you carry out the very same acts of cruelty that God supposedly asked Moses and his army to do against the Midianite people??


There are too many interpretations of personal definition in here to make this a valid question.

What do you mean by literal truth? Whose truth?

And what is cruelty? If it is God's will, can it be considered cruel?

None of us know what the literal truth of life really is for certain. And I guess we all know cruelty when we see it. So if the gist of your question is actually, 'is it wrong to hurt someone just because your daddy told you to', than I would say that the crux of this question becomes a matter of choice once again doesn't it.

Will we or won't we use our own common sense before we act? Those who would choose to commit horrific crimes against their fellowman and condone by claiming allegiance and devotion to s religious belief they are following to the letter, are as much a murderer as any other murderer who commits the crime. A murderer is a murderer.

Joshua was a murderer.

And if it is true that this was all God's will, than by definition this god is a murderer. The real question is does a Creator have the right to commit murder? Is it his prerogative as the one who created life in the first place to take it in whatsoever way he pleases? I guess that maybe if he really is the one who created all of this than he can certainly bring it all to an abrupt end whenever he so chooses.

regardless of whether that is literal truth or not though, it is still a heinous crime against humanity and murder and slaughter is still murder and slaughter.

Whether a lightning bolt from heaven or via a disciple as the hand of god, murder is murder. The hand of god has stricken us down it seems in many ways. if one chooses to believe that the creator is this god of the Bible they must also be very wary of making sure they know when they are being his hand on earth, and when they are just thinking they are such. To be wrong about your so called calling is to undertake a a great abuse of authority.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 05:16 am
@Alan McDougall,
Pathfinder

We seem to agree on all points except maybe with God being cruel I think God can be anything he wants to be, even cruel
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 05:21 am
@Alan McDougall,
well you know what they say Alan,

"If it walks like a duck..."

Have a great day!
 
 

 
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