Not Shakespeare, Epictetus, and then Albet Ellis, founder of Rational Emotive Therapy.

Billy,

Well Billy, I do not think god comes into it, the individual fulfills his will through his actions, and so the action is first selfish, no, no need to bring Zeus into it whatsoever. "I care less then nothing for Zeus!!" Prometheus unchained.


"Not Shakespeare, Epictetus, and then Albet Ellis, founder of Rational Emotive Therapy." quote Billy

:)You may be right, the secret to creativity is concealing your sources. The quote is from Shakespeare however, and the other is from Heraclitus, where they got their material is anyones guess. The late Albert Ellis, I have his, "A New Guide to Rational Living".---great stuff!! He will be missed!! "There is nothing good or evil save in the will." Epictetus




All philosophy lies in two words, sustain and abstain.
Epictetus

All religions must be tolerated... for every man must get to heaven in his own way.
Epictetus

Be careful to leave your sons well instructed rather than rich, for the hopes of the instructed are better than the wealth of the ignorant.
Epictetus

Control thy passions lest they take vengence on thee.
Epictetus

Difficulties are things that show a person what they are.
Epictetus

Difficulties show men what they are. In case of any difficulty remember that God has pitted you against a rough antagonist that you may be a conqueror, and this cannot be without toil.
Epictetus

Do not laugh much or often or unrestrainedly.
Epictetus

Do not seek to bring things to pass in accordance with your wishes, but wish for them as they are, and you will find them.
Epictetus

First learn the meaning of what you say, and then speak.
Epictetus

First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.
Epictetus

Freedom is not procured by a full enjoyment of what is desired, but by controlling the desire.
Epictetus

Freedom is the right to live as we wish.
Epictetus

God has entrusted me with myself.
Epictetus

He is a drunkard who takes more than three glasses though he be not drunk.
Epictetus

He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has.
Epictetus

If evil be spoken of you and it be true, correct yourself, if it be a lie, laugh at it.
Epictetus

If one oversteps the bounds of moderation, the greatest pleasures cease to please.
Epictetus

If thy brother wrongs thee, remember not so much his wrong-doing, but more than ever that he is thy brother.
Epictetus

If virtue promises happiness, prosperity and peace, then progress in virtue is progress in each of these for to whatever point the perfection of anything brings us, progress is always an approach toward it.
Epictetus

If you desire to be good, begin by believing that you are wicked.
Epictetus

If you seek truth you will not seek victory by dishonorable means, and if you find truth you will become invincible.
Epictetus

If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.
Epictetus

If you wish to be a writer, write.
Epictetus

Imagine for yourself a character, a model personality, whose example you determine to follow, in private as well as in public.
Epictetus

Is freedom anything else than the right to live as we wish? Nothing else.
Epictetus

It is impossible to begin to learn that which one thinks one already knows.
Epictetus

It is not death or pain that is to be dreaded, but the fear of pain or death.
Epictetus

It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.
Epictetus

It is the nature of the wise to resist pleasures, but the foolish to be a slave to them.
Epictetus

It takes more than just a good looking body. You've got to have the heart and soul to go with it.
Epictetus

It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
Epictetus

Keep silence for the most part, and speak only when you must, and then briefly.
Epictetus

Know, first, who you are, and then adorn yourself accordingly.
Epictetus

Make the best use of what is in your power, and take the rest as it happens.
Epictetus

Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them.
Epictetus

Neither should a ship rely on one small anchor, nor should life rest on a single hope.
Epictetus

Never in any case say I have lost such a thing, but I have returned it. Is your child dead? It is a return. Is your wife dead? It is a return. Are you deprived of your estate? Is not this also a return?
Epictetus

No great thing is created suddenly.
Epictetus

No greater thing is created suddenly, any more than a bunch of grapes or a fig. If you tell me that you desire a fig, I answer you that there must be time. Let it first blossom, then bear fruit, then ripen.
Epictetus

No man is free who is not master of himself.
Epictetus

Not every difficult and dangerous thing is suitable for training, but only that which is conducive to success in achieving the object of our effort.
Epictetus

Nothing great is created suddenly, any more than a bunch of grapes or a fig. If you tell me that you desire a fig. I answer you that there must be time. Let it first blossom, then bear fruit, then ripen.
Epictetus

One that desires to excel should endeavor in those things that are in themselves most excellent.
Epictetus

Only the educated are free.
Epictetus

People are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them.
Epictetus

Practice yourself, for heaven's sake in little things, and then proceed to greater.
Epictetus

Silence is safer than speech.
Epictetus

The essence of philosophy is that a man should so live that his happiness shall depend as little as possible on external things.
Epictetus

The greater the difficulty the more glory in surmounting it. Skillful pilots gain their reputation from storms and tempests.
Epictetus

The key is to keep company only with people who uplift you, whose presence calls forth your best.
Epictetus

The two powers which in my opinion constitute a wise man are those of bearing and forbearing.
Epictetus

The world turns aside to let any man pass who knows where he is going.
Epictetus

There is nothing good or evil save in the will.
Epictetus

There is only one way to happiness and that is to cease worrying about things which are beyond the power of our will.
Epictetus

To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education. To accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun. To accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete.
Epictetus

Unless we place our religion and our treasure in the same thing, religion will always be sacrificed.
Epictetus

We are not to give credit to the many, who say that none ought to be educated but the free; but rather to the philosophers, who say that the well-educated alone are free.
Epictetus

We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.
Epictetus

We should not moor a ship with one anchor, or our life with one hope.
Epictetus

We tell lies, yet it is easy to show that lying is immoral.
Epictetus

Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.
Epictetus

When you are offended at any man's fault, turn to yourself and study your own failings. Then you will forget your anger.
Epictetus

Whenever you are angry, be assured that it is not only a present evil, but that you have increased a habit.
Epictetus

Whoever does not regard what he has as most ample wealth, is unhappy, though he be master of the world.
Epictetus

You are a little soul carrying around a corpse.
Epictetus

You may be always victorious if you will never enter into any contest where the issue does not wholly depend upon yourself.
Epictetus

People are not disturbed by things, but by the view they take of them.
Epictetus

It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
Epictetus

Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them.
Epictetus

These 3 get to the idea Shakespeare laid claim to...

I would bet in the beginning of that book you mentioned you'll find the debated quote, attributed to Epictetus.

Cheers!

Billy
And if you view your actions as selfish, sure enough they are.

And if I view mine as selfless, sure enough they are.

I think there is a whole lot of truth in that story. But this Rose did not come from a garden, and I don't want to return to where I came from. But I will be happy, when my journey is over, to return to myself. That's not a bad place to return to these days.




"Why, then, 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so: to me it is a prison."

Act 2, Scene 2 of Shakespeare's Hamlet

I like quotes. So much put across in so few words.

Billy:)

Why its so simple, why did not think of this before, it simply brilliant Billy, the world is like a box of chocolates isn't it!!!------LOL!!![/QUOTE]

Is it more briliant than: If Boagie thinks it, it must be so. Boagie's sibling grabbed the last sandwich, so Boagie's brother is selfish!!

It's just a little cartoon story, sequential art, susceptible of interpretation. Here is an interpretation: the garden is Plato's Academy, which literally means Garden of Man, that is, the gardener was working on study of mankind's world. The passing monk and subsequent masters are the various disciplines, or mathos, mathematics, that is, the sciences. The gardener studies the sciences, physics, biology, anthropology, history, literature and becomes master of them all. Then he returns to his garden, that is, to the study of mankind's world in the original form of Plato's Academy, philosophy itself.

It reminded me of the story of the man who search the world over for something only to return home and find it in his own back yard.

I much prefer your story and explanation.

Rose, it took me fifty years to find the world was within my own self, I now know everything starts with self and finishes with self, there is nothing outside of self,

Thank you, Richard.

I have been working on it for a long time, too.

Growing up I felt like a square peg in a round hole. Today there are so many square pegs out there. It looks like we are heading for something, a new type of consciousness perhaps. And probably not even that new, it just seems that way to westerners. I heard someone say, "So many people are leaving the church and returning to God." At first I thought that made no sense but it does. We are no longer satisfied with the answers others provide and have decided to find out for ourselves. A good thing if you ask me.

I can't prove what I discovered any more than you can. As Seekers we take each other on faith. I searched for a long time until I realised that I had come full circle. Someone else said this, I can't remember who but it sums it all up for me, "A million times zero is still zero."

Do you ever feel a little depressed by it all?

I don't know about where you are, but where I am I see more people who have become round pegs. They didn't start out as round pegs of course, but they have shaved off the square edges of who they really are in a desperate attempt to fit into the round hole that has somehow been passed off to them as the "correct" hole. The goal, I feel, is not to find a hole to fit ourselves into, as that somehow implies that we're done and our search is over, but rather to give ourselves the freedom to explore and experience everything we encounter without pre-judging. If we lose our rigidity, we can find many holes, in a myriad of shapes, that we can work with.
----------------------


I always liked that one.

------------------------



It is a good thing, but care must be taken not to fall into narcissism's grasp.

Joseph Campbell says along these lines that "Religion is what gets in the way of the religious experience." He also notes that "Religion" stems from the Latin, "Religio" meaning, "Re-linking."
--------------------------
On this topic (I know, not the "irrefutable" source that some might prefer but I think it says it well regardless) from http://www.aztriad.com/religio1.html:


The last line which I think puts us a bit more back on topic with the original post.

----------------------------



Coming full circle, yes. I know the feeling. Nothing wrong with that. The circle and the spiral are universal symbols of life, death, rebirth and the journey both inward and outward. And, my God, what a journey it has been and still is. Revel in it.



. . . only by the idea of a million times zero equaling zero. That sounds more like the words of someone who has given up, who has conformed rather than adapted and who would like to bring others into their little sheep pen of being. Don't let 'em do it. That's their world, and they're welcome to it.

Be water.

Sorry about the long post Rose, but something in your post compelled me to write all of this out.

Regards,
Tock.

Rose, yes we will always come fullm circle, for everything starts with self and finishes with self, the answers are within us. Over the last twelve years have studied Walter Russel and combined his philosophy with the sermon on the mount and the beatitudes. With the result that I have finished up with a very healthy body and above all a very clear an alert mind, where nothing matters, so I now give no thought to person place or thing.

I agree with you boagie...there is no such thing as a selfless act, or action.
We are subject to our own impressions and experiences in life. We would not give unless in some form it rewards with gratification. If it makes one feel good to have nothing; then is this a selfless act?

Still, if you have a bit of cash and some leisure time, i recommend traveling the world.

You never know....

Billy

I think that the definition of selfish has become confused. A selfish act is one where you help yourself at the expense of others. But if you are not hurting others there is nothing wrong with actions that are good for yourself. One cannot deny there are selfless actions either, where one sacrifices your self interest for the good of others. It is true that you are rewarded for selfless deeds, but it is a reward that is not easy to gain, a hard one richly deserved one. Yes selfless actions ultimatly serve us as well as everyone else, but it is not an easy route or a selfish one.

Yes. The confusion is between "self-interested" and "selfish". Going to sleep when tired is self-interested, but hardly selfish.

There are no selfish actions, for I am the creator of all that is, there is nothning outside of self, if I see some thing out there I know it is only a reflection of my own self in motion. I cannot be other than the way I see you.

Then you must of neccessity hate yourself and love yourself at the same time.

I agree that if you are the only living being, then you cannot be selfish, since to be selfish implies affecting others. Is that what you mean?

i dont agree with your premise claims, self is a fundamental element because it is the more realistic present sense of existing to existence, but, as existence is much more truely present without being real or sound alive, any occasion of it revelation presence in life would lead automatically to reveal the unselfish nature of all actions by the same fundamental element that is not in fact the self but existence presence alive,

so the self is a major element only because it is a reality of existence but a bigger reality of existence prevail naturally to the self

As I awken to who I am, I slowely stop seeig the differnces in the material world, coming to realize that when I take judgment, discernment, perception from my consciousness there is no difference between suffering and joy, no right or wrong, good or bad, this alows my true beingness to shine through, it will be where I (Richard ) used to be.