The Selfish Nature Of All Actions

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Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 10:46 am
@kennethamy,
Quote:
One cynic (Montesque?) wrote, "Words were invented by Man to conceal his thoughts". I don't suppose you agree with that, so why would you sanction the use of "selfish" or "self-interested" rather than "motivated"?


I don't 'sanction' the use - I've criticized the use. It was a poor choice of words, at best.

Quote:
"All actions are selfish (self-interested)" is clearly falsifiable. Isn't that how we know it is false?


Well, can you prove that some actions are not selfish?

We cannot prove that an action is selfish or selfless - there's simply no evidence that could be presented beyond a claim from the agent.

Being nonfalsifiable, we are forced to reject the theory.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 12:10 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
So it is irrelevant to label an action's selfishness when it is only known by the one who was acting. We can only find the benefits of the action's outcome amongst everyone who the action was effecting. Just trying to sum up 42 pages of thread.
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 06:32 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
So it is irrelevant to label an action's selfishness when it is only known by the one who was acting. We can only find the benefits of the action's outcome amongst everyone who the action was effecting. Just trying to sum up 42 pages of thread.


Holiday,

Yes I see the light now, in using the term selfish when discussing the self--serves of the individual. A change in terminology was tried way back in the thread but that did not seem to work either. Of course you are right, this cognitve process could only be known to the individual, and there is no morality to be found in it.


"We can only find the benefits of the action's outcome amongst everyone who the action was effecting. Just trying to sum up 42 pages of thread.[/quote]"

Anything you chose to do, will be evil to somebody, even that which you chose do not do, will also be evil to somebody, its an outside judgement call. As a social creature, this judgement is unaviodable.:brickwall:
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 06:39 pm
@boagie,
Therefore when we define somebody as perfect, it is only possible for that somebody to be perfect when not having any interactions thus God's perfection is maintained by being excluded 'experientially' from humanity, because if god were physically real it would not have the change to be good or evil, selfless or selfish. God can only be of a benefit when it is a individual perception. That way everybody can look at moral perfection through their own eyes.
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 07:15 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Therefore when we define somebody as perfect, it is only possible for that somebody to be perfect when not having any interactions thus God's perfection is maintained by being excluded 'experientially' from humanity, because if god were physically real it would not have the change to be good or evil, selfless or selfish. God can only be of a benefit when it is a individual perception. That way everybody can look at moral perfection through their own eyes.


Holiday,Smile

It is a judgement call, or your context defining you.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 07:23 pm
@boagie,
Yeah I know but I just like to relate things to the general discussion is selfishness, making abstract conclusions helps me to understand the full value of knowing something.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 09:31 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
I don't 'sanction' the use - I've criticized the use. It was a poor choice of words, at best.



Well, can you prove that some actions are not selfish?

We cannot prove that an action is selfish or selfless - there's simply no evidence that could be presented beyond a claim from the agent.

Being nonfalsifiable, we are forced to reject the theory.


You mean that it is not overwhelmingly unlikely that the Navy Seal who gave up his life to save his comrades, was being selfish or self-interested. That the chances of being selfish/unselfish are 50-50? Of course, we cannot be certain of anything. I cannot be certain of what is going on in the minds or others. If you are insulted, and you get red in the face, and strike the insulter, I cannot be certain that you are angry. But I can bet you are, and I will be right. My knowing that the Seal was unselfish does not mean I have to be certain he was.

So the theory that all actions are selfish can be shown to be false to the degree we show most beliefs are false. Not with certainty. But why should we require certainty?

In any case, falsifiability does not require that a theory be actually shown to be false. Falsifiability only requires that we can think of, or imagine counter-example which, if they happened, would show the theory to be false. After all, in the lingo, even true theories are supposed to be "falsifiable". Isn't that so? You seem to be confusing the ordinary use of the term, "falsifiable" with the very technical use of the term in philosophy, invented, I think, by Karl Popper. (Sometimes Popper was caught by the confusion, himself).
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 09:35 am
@kennethamy,
Yes, but we should keep in mind that if we followed Didymos's principles there would be no supposed witches back in the medieval times.Wink
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 09:55 am
@Holiday20310401,
Didymos Thomas,Laughing

LaughingI told you so thomas, I warrened you, next on the list is sky writing it---------------and to no avail.Laughing
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 10:01 am
@boagie,
Whats sky writing:o.

:drinking:(best emoticon ever).
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 10:51 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yes, but we should keep in mind that if we followed Didymos's principles there would be no supposed witches back in the medieval times.Wink


People would not have supposed there were witches? Why do you suppose that?
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 10:58 am
@kennethamy,
Well if people realised that certainty doesn't establish whether witches even existed (because they obviously don't) people might rationalize the whose siituation instead of burning random people, heck I could get into Joan of Arc.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 06:07 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Well if people realised that certainty doesn't establish whether witches even existed (because they obviously don't) people might rationalize the whose siituation instead of burning random people, heck I could get into Joan of Arc.


Sorry. I don't understand what it means to say that "certainty doesn't establish whether witches ever existed". It doesn't seem to be English. And what does it mean to say that people might rationalize the whose situation?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 06:20 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
So it is irrelevant to label an action's selfishness when it is only known by the one who was acting. We can only find the benefits of the action's outcome amongst everyone who the action was effecting. Just trying to sum up 42 pages of thread.


Suppose a mother leaves two pieces of pie: one for Sam, and the other for Barry. Sam returns home first and eats not only his own piece, but also eats Barry's . Is the mother wrong to call Sam selfish for having eaten Barry's pie too, because she could not look into Sam's mind?
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 07:32 pm
@kennethamy,
Certainty doesn't establish whether or not a person is a witch. Obviously though there is no such thing, this is just an example.

No the mother is not wrong for calling her son selfish, what a silly question.

As for the phrase 'whose situation' that was a typo. Replace 'whose' with the word 'whole'. Laughing
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:05 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Certainty doesn't establish whether or not a person is a witch. Obviously though there is no such thing, this is just an example.

No the mother is not wrong for calling her son selfish, what a silly question.

As for the phrase 'whose situation' that was a typo. Replace 'whose' with the word 'whole'. Laughing


Certainty doesn't establish whether or not a person is a witch.

Sorry, still don't understand what that means, or why you said it.

No the mother is not wrong for calling her son selfish, what a silly question.

Gee, I thought that you and Boagie thought that no one could know that another person was selfish. Was I wrong?
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:18 pm
@kennethamy,
Well I think the answer is based on logic and patterns that create assumptions.
Certainty doesn't establish whether or not a person is a witch.
Does it seem logical for a human to be a witch, or have the ability to perform real magic. Has the person every been a threat before, is there any concrete proof of supernatural abilities displayed by people in the past? You can't be certain about a flaw to the pattern without first having a flaw to the logic.

No the mother is not wrong for calling her son selfish.
The mother is not basing the assumption that her son is selfish only because her son took the slice of cake but also from the fact that kids like cake. It is a tendency for selfishness to occur in this respect. It is logical in this situation.
You can be certain that a pattern is going to continue rather than it subjecting to an anomaly.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:28 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Well I think the answer is based on logic and patterns that create assumptions.
Certainty doesn't establish whether or not a person is a witch.
Does it seem logical for a human to be a witch, or have the ability to perform real magic. Has the person every been a threat before, is there any concrete proof of supernatural abilities displayed by people in the past? You can't be certain about a flaw to the pattern without first having a flaw to the logic.

No the mother is not wrong for calling her son selfish.
The mother is not basing the assumption that her son is selfish only because her son took the slice of cake but also from the fact that kids like cake. It is a tendency for selfishness to occur in this respect. It is logical in this situation.
You can be certain that a pattern is going to continue rather than it subjecting to an anomaly.


Why should we have to establish anything with certainty? But, look, I really don't understand what it is you are trying to say, or to argue. Perhaps you better summarize your position, and say why you think it is true.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:30 pm
@kennethamy,
Forget it:surrender:, just accept what you will *cough*.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 4 Jul, 2008 08:48 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Quote:
You mean that it is not overwhelmingly unlikely that the Navy Seal who gave up his life to save his comrades, was being selfish or self-interested.


He would know, and I'd take his word for it.

Quote:
In any case, falsifiability does not require that a theory be actually shown to be false. Falsifiability only requires that we can think of, or imagine counter-example which, if they happened, would show the theory to be false. After all, in the lingo, even true theories are supposed to be "falsifiable". Isn't that so? You seem to be confusing the ordinary use of the term, "falsifiable" with the very technical use of the term in philosophy, invented, I think, by Karl Popper.


Well, you can go look up psychological egoism and learn something. PE is nonfalsifiable, which means the theory has no scientific credence.
 
 

 
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