Defense of Freewill Against Determinism

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Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 03:18 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand;145280 wrote:
Willful ignorance is worse. So far you have shotgunned points and not talked about the points given in a adequate way.


Since we aren't getting any philosophy done let's not resort to bickering. I'm done talking to you.
 
OntheWindowStand
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 03:20 pm
@Night Ripper,
just remember what ruined this convo for the future ones you have. Then all will be well
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 03:22 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145267 wrote:


It's never happened and never will but why isn't it still a real possibility? Do you think that everything that's a real possibility has to eventually happen? But surely somethings are really possible even though they never happen. How do you tell the difference? Is that also just obvious to you? It's not to me.


It is not a real possibility because it can only be imagined, but it cannot actually happen. In philosophy, to say that X is a real X is to say that it is independent of mind. And, yes, of course, some things that never have happened are real possibilities. For example, you have never died, but your dying is a real possibility. But that a man can become pregnant is not a real possibility. And the explanation is not, of course, that it has never happened. The explanation is that men do not have the necessary anatomical equipment to become pregnant. That men have never been pregnant is not why they will never be pregnant. Who believes that?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 03:26 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;145285 wrote:
The explanation is that men do not have the necessary anatomical equipment to become pregnant.


How do you determine what the necessary anatomical equipment to become pregnant is? Oh, what's that you say? Because that's just what you always observe?

kennethamy;145285 wrote:
That men have never been pregnant is not why they will never be pregnant. Who believes that?


You do, implicitly. See above. You are always appealing to what always or never happens, even if it's in an indirect way.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:10 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145286 wrote:
How do you determine what the necessary anatomical equipment to become pregnant is? Oh, what's that you say? Because that's just what you always observe?



You do, implicitly. See above. You are always appealing to what always or never happens, even if it's in an indirect way.
your whole argument boils down to basically saying 'well just because we've never observed 1 plus 1 equaling 3 doesn't mean it can't happen, and concluding that adding 1 to 1 does in fact actually give you 2 would be false as it's mere happenstance.'

that seems to me to be your argument. correct or not?


science is built on the premise that it makes sense to try to find the causes of things because happenings really do have causes. your notion, as it seems to me, would be throwing out all of science and in fact logic itself.

i put a gun to your head and pull the trigger....maybe I killed you through use of the bullet or maybe your head just spontaneously exploded....
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:18 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145295 wrote:
your whole argument boils down to basically saying 'well just because we've never observed 1 plus 1 equaling 3 doesn't mean it can't happen, and concluding that adding 1 to 1 does in fact actually give you 2 would be false as it's mere happenstance.'

that seems to me to be your argument. correct or not?


No, 1+1=2 is a matter of logic. My claim is also stronger than that.

Just because a man will not become pregnant, doesn't mean a man cannot become pregnant. You need to recognize the difference between something that will not happen and something that cannot happen.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:21 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145296 wrote:
You need to recognize the difference between something that will not happen and something that cannot happen.
please tie it together for me...yes I recognize the difference....I could become president when I turn 45 but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I won't. But of course that doesn't mean it cannot happen. Your point?


ADDED

As far as I can tell you are saying there is no such thing as "cannot happen"....only "will not happen". to which I can only reply, no, there really are things that cannot happen
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:25 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145298 wrote:
please tie it together for me...yes I recognize the difference....I could become president when I turn 45 but I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I won't. But of course that doesn't mean it cannot happen. Your point?


ADDED

As far as I can tell you are saying there is no such thing as "cannot happen"....only "will not happen"


Yes, there is no such thing as "physically cannot happen" which is another way of saying physically impossible. Of course, I'm not denying that some things are logically impossible e.g. four-sided triangles.

The point is that if nothing is physically impossible the same argument works against things that are physically necessary e.g. the laws of nature.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:30 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145300 wrote:
Yes, there is no such thing as "physically cannot happen" which is another way of saying physically impossible. Of course, I'm not denying that some things are logically impossible e.g. four-sided triangles.
I'm confused by your statement physically cannot happen. what do you mean by that? a turtle physically cannot talk. turtles do not posses the vocal chords or brain centers to do such a thing. I cannot bicep curl 1,000,000,000 lbs. it physically cannot happen based on my skeletal and muscular structure. I cannot fly. I lack the aerodynamics and the thrust to get airborne and I lack the means to remain airborne. I'm not sure what you mean.

I agree that the laws of nature did not HAVE to be set at what they are.....but upon being set everything within its domain is bound by them. There are laws of nature...that are set....whether those laws were set arbitrarily or by luck or God or chance is another issue. but the laws are there and they govern what can and cannot be done physically
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:37 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145301 wrote:
I'm confused by your statement physically cannot happen. what do you mean by that? a turtle physically cannot talk. turtles do not posses the vocal chords or brain centers to do such a thing. I cannot bicep curl 1,000,000,000 lbs. it physically cannot happen based on my skeletal and muscular structure. I cannot fly. I lack the aerodynamics and the thrust to get airborne and I lack the means to remain airborne. I'm not sure what you mean.


You've listed things that don't happen, not things that can't happen. It seems like you just introspectively know these things can't happen even though all you observe is that they don't happen.

Please read this:

Quote:
I doubt that 'trying and failing' will do the trick. After all, many times we try to do something, fail at it, and yet - for whatever reasons - do not conclude "I can't do it." (It happened to me recently. I was trying to install a new pump on a dishwasher and was having no success, indeed I was failing miserably. I stopped for a while, tried again, and succeeded.) I am absolutely convinced that there is no phenomenological, introspective, felt (call it what you will) difference whatsoever between failing to do something which is possible (e.g. installing a dishwasher pump) and failing to do something which necessitarians call 'nomically impossible', e.g. flapping my arms and flying.

What do I feel when I find that I repeatedly fail to do something? Disappointment, remorse, anger, sadness, annoyance, irritability, fury, etc. Do I experience (physical or nomological) impossibility? Not that I can tell. I would not know how to recognize it if I did. I can experience that I have not done what I wanted; that I have tried especially hard; etc. But I do not see that I have experienced that I cannot do it. I may say, "I can't do it." But I have not experienced anything more than failure.
Source: Regularity Theory
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 04:45 pm
@Night Ripper,
I find that whole line of thought a bit absurd but I'll bite.....now what? what is the point? what does this lead to?

Should I start putting toothpicks in my remote control hoping they'll act as batteries or start turning on my lamp hoping my TV will turn on?

I don't get it.

Without testing and figuring out what causes what and what effects this has on that we cannot advance in any way whatsoever. We regress as a matter of fact to the point of absurdity. There is no point in investigating murders or trying to figure out anything since we cannot rule out anything since everything is possible. How many times must we touch a stove til we figure out that there really is a connection between the heat and the pain I feel?

What is the endgame to this line of thinking?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:15 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145308 wrote:
How many times must we touch a stove til we figure out that there really is a connection between the heat and the pain I feel?


You're missing the point. I'm already assuming for the sake of argument that the following statement is true:

1. If you put your hand on a red hot stove you will get burned.

Even though (1) is true, that doesn't imply that it's physically impossible for (1) to be false.
 
ACB
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:32 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145318 wrote:
You're missing the point. I'm already assuming for the sake of argument that the following statement is true:

1. If you put your hand on a red hot stove you will get burned.


But why do you believe this, if it is not physically necessary? Is it probable, and if so, why?
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:35 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145318 wrote:
You're missing the point. I'm already assuming for the sake of argument that the following statement is true:

1. If you put your hand on a red hot stove you will get burned.

Even though (1) is true, that doesn't imply that it's physically impossible for (1) to be false.
well maybe not in and of itself but upon further testing we can conclude that, yes, indeed it is physically impossible for (1) to be false.

we can figure out what aspect of the red hot stove causes us to burn....we can test if it's the shape by touching other things of similar shape.
we can test if its the color and can touch other things of the same color...we can test if its the location and touch other things in the same area.

we can then figure out what it is about the stove that burns us...in this way we can rule things out and continue doing this until we've figure out what causes us to burn, namely...heat.

this is a typical method used by science and how we learn about the world around us.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:39 pm
@ACB,
ACB;145326 wrote:
But why do you believe this, if it is not physically necessary? Is it probable, and if so, why?


Why would it being physically necessary help me believe anything? We've already established that we can't observe physical necessity.

I believe it's true because (assuming induction works) then it's probably true (and if induction doesn't work then it's at least no worse than random guessing). There's no appeal to physical necessity needed.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:45 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145286 wrote:
How do you determine what the necessary anatomical equipment to become pregnant is? Oh, what's that you say? Because that's just what you always observe?



You do, implicitly. See above. You are always appealing to what always or never happens, even if it's in an indirect way.


Very indirect. We have very good reasons for thinking that what anatomical equipment males have will not let them become pregnant. But, the fact is, it won't. And that is the explanation of why no males have ever been pregnant. Never mind why we believe it is true. It is true. And that is why it is physically impossible for males to become pregnant. In other words, the proposition that males can become pregnant, and the proposition that males lack the physical equipment to become pregnant are logically incompatible. But why we think that those two propositions are true is a different matter. If then, If P and Q are incompatible, why we believe P is true, and why we believe that Q is true, is irrelevant. The fact is that P and Q are incompatible. So, since it is a true that male physical equipment is incompatible with male pregnancy, that is why males cannot become pregnant. Our evidence that male physical equipment is incompatible with male pregnancy has nothing to do with the fact that those two propositions are incompatible, and so that is why males cannot become pregnant.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:46 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;145328 wrote:
well maybe not in and of itself but upon further testing we can conclude that, yes, indeed it is physically impossible for (1) to be false.

we can figure out what aspect of the red hot stove causes us to burn....we can test if it's the shape by touching other things of similar shape.
we can test if its the color and can touch other things of the same color...we can test if its the location and touch other things in the same area.

we can then figure out what it is about the stove that burns us...in this way we can rule things out and continue doing this until we've figure out what causes us to burn, namely...heat.

this is a typical method used by science and how we learn about the world around us.


You can perform any experiment you like but you will never be able to detect that a stove has to burn you only that it does burn you.

kennethamy;145332 wrote:
We have very good reasons for thinking that what anatomical equipment males have will not let them become pregnant.


What evidence? That you observe it never happens? You're making the same mistake again. You think that since X never happens therefore X is physically impossible. At least, for some things anyways. You're not very consistent.

kennethamy;145332 wrote:
In other words, the proposition that males can become pregnant, and the proposition that males lack the physical equipment to become pregnant are logically incompatible.


That's logical impossibility not physical impossibility. I agree logical impossibility exists.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 05:57 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;145334 wrote:



That's logical impossibility not physical impossibility. I agree logical impossibility exists.


Yes, and that logical impossibility implies a physical impossibility, namely that it is physically impossible for males to become pregnant, since for males to become pregnant is logically incompatible with their anatomy which does not permit them to become pregnant. If p and q are logically impossible, then p and q are physically impossible. What is logically impossible cannot be physically possible.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 06:12 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;145340 wrote:
If p and q are logically impossible, then p and q are physically impossible.


So a four-sided triangle is physically impossible?

It seems that for you "physically impossible" is simply another way of saying "logically impossible". I will remember to translate your statements in the future.
 
north
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 06:17 pm
@kennethamy,
so we are now using symbolic logic , as an argument .....hmmm
 
 

 
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