The Difference Between Causality and Determinism

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:18 am
@Zetherin,
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:23 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117740 wrote:
I dunno, man, looks like an insult to me.


I never wrote that. Where did you get that from? Or rather, how was that manufactured? Show me the original post, please?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:25 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117750 wrote:
I never wrote that. Where did you get that from?


It was a joke Very Happy
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:27 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117751 wrote:
It was a joke Very Happy


Not funny. And not responsive. You accused me of throwing insults. So back it up, or withdraw the accusation. I also want to report FA's next to last post. How do I do that? There is no language barrier. There is ignorance and stupidity.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:29 am
@kennethamy,


---------- Post added 01-06-2010 at 12:36 PM ----------

kennethamy;117752 wrote:
Not funny. And not responsive. You accused me of throwing insults. So back it up, or withdraw the accusation. I also want to report FA's next to last post. How do I do that? There is no language barrier. There is ignorance and stupidity.
Quote:

n.
1. a. The act of compelling.
b. The state of being compelled.

2. a. An irresistible impulse to act, regardless of the rationality of the motivation: "The compulsion to protect the powerful from the discomfort of public disclosure feeds further abuse and neglect" (Boston Globe).
b. An act or acts performed in response to such an impulse.



link: compulsion - definition of compulsion by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Now compare that with this...

kennethamy;116204 wrote:
As Locke pointed out, "it is not the will that is free, it is the person". A person acts freely if he can do what he wants to do. If you is not compelled to do what he does not want to do. That fact that what he wants to do is caused is irrelevant unless the cause of of a particular kind. For example, if his want is the result of an addiction, or of hypnosis. The mere fact that it is caused is no reason to think that it is somehow compelled. For instance, if I want to go to a restaurant, and the cause of that is the suggestion of a friend, my I was not compelled to want to go, and, therefore, my going to the restaurant was of my own free will. To say I did something of my own free will is simply to deny that I was forced to do that thing.

I don't know ordinary people (not philosophers) who would say that we act freely when we are not determined to do what we do, if only because "determined" in that sense is a philosophical term of art, and most people are not philosophers. Just to repeat; I am not using "free will" just to mean,"will" (as you write I am) since I might want to do something, and if that want is caused in a particular way (say it is an addiction) then I am not acting of my own free will. Therefore, you must be mistaken.


Black and White clarified and dismystified...

...and the same applies to the expression to be "Forced"...we are not aware Conscientiously of all the Forces that compel us to act in order to state that we decided freely...
(quite obvious ! )




FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
 
fast
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:51 am
@prothero,
Even though I think that even humor can have its place in philosophical discourse, we should always remain vigilant to take philosophy seriously.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 11:54 am
@fast,
fast;117773 wrote:
Even though I think that even humor can have its place in philosophical discourse, we should always remain vigilant to take philosophy seriously.


And it is always best to let people think you are a fool rather than to speak and convince them that you are. (Not you, of course, fast).
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:19 pm
@kennethamy,
...my close to last post as been edited, I think it requires attention from the readers of this Thread...

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:28 pm
@prothero,
kennethamy wrote:

Not funny. And not responsive. You accused me of throwing insults. So back it up, or withdraw the accusation. I also want to report FA's next to last post. How do I do that? There is no language barrier. There is ignorance and stupidity.


What I meant was that I was sensing a brash tone from all parties. I wanted everyone to take a step back for a moment and take a deep breath.

If your tone wasn't of that accord, then I retract my accusation. My apologies. But you have to admit that saying "There is ignorance stupidity" does sound insulting.

Quote:

And it is always best to let people think you are a fool rather than to speak and convince them that you are.


Who was this directed towards?

fast wrote:

Even though I think that even humor can have its place in philosophical discourse, we should always remain vigilant to take philosophy seriously.


I don't think anyone here is not taking philosophy seriously. All I did was make a joke, and this doesn't mean I wasn't taking our previous philosophical conversation seriously (if you directed this to me).

But, yes, I do think people have to lighten up a bit sometimes. And one can do this whilst remaining vigilant about taking philosophy seriously. But, you may disagree.
 
ACB
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:33 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117669 wrote:
Your analogy between "hard" and "soft" determinism, and "soft" and "hard" cheese, is proof that you do have any idea what "soft" and "hard" determinism mean, and therefore your views on them are worthless. Soft and hard determinism are not different kinds of determinism like soft and hard cheese. They are different ways in which determinism relates to free will. Why don't you just try to learn what those technical terms do mean, and stop saying silly things? The analogy is just ignorant.


I know perfectly well what hard and soft determinism are, having followed this thread from the beginning and read plenty about hard and soft determinism, indeterminism, compatibilism, incompatibilism, etc.

Hard determinism is incompatible with free will; soft determinism is compatible with free will. Since these are contrary attributes, hard and soft determinism must be different kinds of determinism (of which only one, at most, can be true). That's all I was saying. The only reason I mentioned cheese was to make the general point that if two contrary adjectives can be applied to a noun, they must refer to two different things. So hard determinism is a different thing (a different idea) from soft determinism.

I have now read William James's The Dilemma of Determinism which you posted. I found it interesting, but nothing in it conflicted with my previous understanding of the meaning of the above terms. I note that at one point he uses the phrase: "determinisms, hard and soft alike". Two different kinds, then.

I am more interested in the substantive issues than quibbles over words. If you object to the expression "kinds of determinism", just rephrase it as you think fit. And cut out the belligerence.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:33 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117785 wrote:


Who was this directed towards?



.



Who(m) was this directed towards? At no one in particular. It is a matter of the shoe fitting, and the person wearing it. How do I report FA's post?

I don't know what you mean by a "brash tone", but you did not say that, anyway. You said "insult". Therefore, you don't have to withdraw the accusation of a brash tone. But you should withdraw the accusation of insult if it is false.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:34 pm
@prothero,
ACB wrote:
And cut out the belligerence.

See, ACB is interpreting a brash tone also perhaps.

kennethamy wrote:

How do I report FA's post?


There is a report button at the top of every post. It should be a red-outlined warning sign, with an exclamation point.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117792 wrote:
See, ACB is interpreting a brash tone also perhaps.



There is a report button at the top of every post. It should be a red-outlined warning sign, with an exclamation point.


I have no idea why ACB writes that. Unless he thinks that all criticism is belligerence.

Thank you
 
Amperage
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:41 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;117755 wrote:
I'm no expert so please keep that in mind. I also did not read the entire thread so keep that in mind too.

But following along a bit I want to clarify this post. Is your argument for determinism that we are being compelled on an subconscious level to do things?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:47 pm
@prothero,
kennethamy wrote:

I have no idea why ACB writes that. Unless he thinks that all criticism is belligerence.


I have no idea how you have no idea why ACB, or anyone, would write that concerning your recent postings. Perhaps you did not intend to come off harsh, but you did. You can criticize without appearing aggressive, you know. But maybe you are just not able to see what we see, or at least what I see. And, I guess, then, it would not be your fault.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:47 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117795 wrote:
I'm no expert so please keep that in mind. I also did not read the entire thread so also keep that in mind.

But following along a bit I want to clarify this post. Is your argument for determinism that we are being compelled on an subconscious level to do things?


It goes further, but it is also that.

As a part of Reality our wants and needs reflect our relation with it. Sometimes partially conscientiously, sometimes at a total unconscious level...
In order to decide freely we would have to be equidistant from all this influences and fully aware of all of them...

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
 
Amperage
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:49 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;117799 wrote:
It goes further, but it is also that.

As a part of Reality our wants and needs reflect our relation with it. Sometimes partially conscientiously, sometimes at a total unconscious level...
In order to decide freely we would have to be equidistant from all this influences and fully aware of all of them...

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
there is a difference between wants and needs.


***EDIT FOR ADDITIONAL COMMENT***
it would seem to me that, while one can be caused to want something, by the pure definitional difference between a want and a need, nothing can force you to want
*** ***
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:51 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
who(m) was this directed towards? at no one in particular. It is a matter of the shoe fitting, and the person wearing it. How do i report fa's post?

I don't know what you mean by a "brash tone", but you did not say that, anyway. You said "insult". Therefore, you don't have to withdraw the accusation of a brash tone. But you should withdraw the accusation of insult if it is false.


---------- Post added 01-06-2010 at 01:54 PM ----------

Amperage;117800 wrote:
there is a difference between wants and needs. more to come...maybe lol


In the loose sense yes...but strictly, a true want is a need !
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:55 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117795 wrote:
I'm no expert so please keep that in mind. I also did not read the entire thread so keep that in mind too.

But following along a bit I want to clarify this post. Is your argument for determinism that we are being compelled on an subconscious level to do things?


Why would that be an argument for determinism ? That would be an argument against free will, not against determinism. Determinism just means: Every event has a cause, and every cause is an event. That description of determinism is neutral as to free will, as it should be. The confusion of determinism with there being no free will is just one of the many confusions on this thread. (I imagine it is because of the connotation of "determine". That is why the term, "determinism" is misleading. It already seems to beg the question of whether determinism is compatible with free will. It suggests that the answer to that question is, no. But the answer to that question is just what is at issue. So, to suggest the answer "packed into the word" is already to beg the question. Of course, this subconscious stuff also begs the question. If being forced is conscious then we are being forced, and if it is not conscious we are also being forced. Heads I win, and tails you lose. Just nonsense.

---------- Post added 01-06-2010 at 02:14 PM ----------

Zetherin;117798 wrote:
I have no idea how you have no idea why ACB, or anyone, would write that concerning your recent postings. Perhaps you did not intend to come off harsh, but you did. You can criticize without appearing aggressive, you know. But maybe you are just not able to see what we see, or at least what I see. And, I guess, then, it would not be your fault.


When I am given some actual facts (quotes) instead of nebulous amorphous characterizations of what I said (harsh, belligerent, aggressive, and so on) I might agree.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 01:14 pm
@kennethamy,


---------- Post added 01-06-2010 at 02:24 PM ----------

Determinism is about something finished rather then unfinished, something fully accountable rather then unaccountable, something that in the Big Order of things leads to something else Necessarily, (Philoshophical explanation of dynamics) as it is also the ultimate fundament of Jus-Naturalism ( the law of Nature/the true Law) and the "hidden" basis for Roman Law...I could go on...but why bother...

...To my believe and understanding we live in a closed/finished Universe...
(by consistency I am a defender of the Cyclic Universe Theory)

Best Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
 
 

 
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