What is "matter" in the quantum age?

@prothero,

housby, to be right upfront about it, I think what you are feeling is a spiritual thing. In Buddhist terms, you are realising emptiness. This is the realisation that the world is in a very important sense, not substantial - empty of inherent existence. Things only exist in a conventional way, not in the absolute way that most people think they do.

I don't know how much background you have in academic philosophy and the like, but I would recommend you have a look for The Central Philosophy of Buddhism, by T.R.V. Murti. It is quite a tough read, but it might address some of your concerns.

@prothero,

prothero;111071 wrote:

..........
So when we talk about mind/matter, idealism/realism, materialism. Which concept of matter are we employing anyway?

What does "matter" mean in quantum age? What is "quantum materialism"? How does this changed conception of matter affect our conceptions of such classic notions of the world as a mechanical machine obeying fixed deterministic laws? Or of space and time as existing independent of "matter". I think many of our philosophical notions are still based on a Newtonian view of the world. I think the dualisms of philosophy: mind/matter, ideal/real, objective/subjective is really based on a misconception of the nature of deeper reality. Are there important clues in our changed conception of matter for resolving these troublesome dualities?
Monism, oneness, anyone?

I am reading a very engrossing book 'Mind in Science'....., i would therefore tend to look at the problems you posed from the perspective of the Mind. Note the Mind is capitalised, since the author prefers it that way as if Mind is a single entity.

The term misconceptions and that what it may mean, happens due to the workings of the Mind. Our mind has a limited capacity to perceive, imagine, calculate, observe, and infer our surroundings.

Matter whether Newtonian, Einsteinian or as per Quantum Physics keeps on revealing itself in different forms to different observers (obviously with different minds). The Mind therefore is engaged in trying to understand the real form of matter. or the substance of matter. What is the substance? or is there any such single substance of primal value.

Science strives to bridge this gap between Mind and Matter.

Some spiritualist, i think, have already decided that Mind and Matter are of the same thing, while some expose that consciousness as represented by or in Mind is seperate or besides Matter.

I am afraid, i have not given any good objective answers to those legitimate questions, but i hope to raise (not give) a perspective to the issue.

To dvelve into psychology, i think dualism is inherent in the Mind due to the nature of Mind which more or less is functioning due to natural instincts and the cognitive nature.

@prothero,

I noticed that alchemy was mentioned (still not figured out how to quote) and I think this is a very relevant. Was it the Chinese or the Egyptian alchemists or both that said 'All is in the one and one in the all'? Whoever it was I think it is a lesson we can learn when we begin to be too reductionist in our thinking. Whatever subatomic particles are, we should assume that they are defined by the universe and the universe is defined by them. As I mentioned earlier, electron entanglement has shown that there is more than just local connection. Hawkin's wormhole ideas also head in the same direction.

On a more epistemological note. I consider my self, in simplistic terms that I am developing, an indirect realist. I, therefore, think that whatever 'matter' is we cannot know it. We can, however, continually redefine our conception of our relationship to it in ways that help us manipulate it.

@Aemun,

Its a magical tune vibrating with the sound of creation. We feel it , we are part of it. Music has the ability to transport us to its truth. When the music stops playing we and the universe will disappear.

@Jackofalltrades phil,

Jackofalltrades;119567 wrote:

When we say 'they virtually have no existence as we understand it' - it is frankly a neither here nor there remark. The fact is whether we perceive matter or not, existence of matter doesnot rely on human perception, experiments and theories. If there is a cause, there is matter, no matter if Descartes existed or not.

The virtual non-existence of particles could, of course, mean that they have a "different" form of existence. Nothing is proved one way or the other at this point. As far as the perception of matter is concerned the whole philosophical argument that has raged for years is exactly about whether matter exists when we are not observing it. To state categorically that matter does not rely on human perception is to brush aside the arguments and counter-arguments of minds far greater than ours. The fact that I actually agree with you is neither here nor there. I am only saying that when you try to describe anything without direct recourse to experience you find yourself grasping at thin air.

Jeeprs,
You are right up to a point. I hold the same (or similar) views on this subject as I do with regard to the existence of God (or gods). It has almost been a spiritual search over the years. It is very apt that you bring up the subject of Buddhism because I have been fascinated with religion all my life (without being religious) and the only religion that has at all captured my serious attention is Buddhism (albeit of the Zen variety). I don't know whether you were being incredibly perceptive or if it was a lucky stab in the dark but I have to say well done on the observation, I think you are gettng were I am coming from on this. Incidentally, I have absolutely no academic background in Buddhism, it just makes more sense to me than most "beliefs".

@housby,

housby;119620 wrote:

The virtual non-existence of particles could, of course, mean that they have a "different" form of existence. Nothing is proved one way or the other at this point. As far as the perception of matter is concerned the whole philosophical argument that has raged for years is exactly about whether matter exists when we are not observing it. To state categorically that matter does not rely on human perception is to brush aside the arguments and counter-arguments of minds far greater than ours. The fact that I actually agree with you is neither here nor there. I am only saying that when you try to describe anything without direct recourse to experience you find yourself grasping at thin air.

While i get a sense of where you are coming from, i should say or claim with a whiff of arrogance perhaps, but in all due humility that i say and write what i believe in. If ever, i write some else i will quote it or mention it likewise.

Now, coming to this round of discussion whereby you raise the purported 'raging' question of 'whether matter exists when we are not observing' is a highly unphilosophical, unscientific question, according to my humble opinion.

It is not only absurd but utterly unworthy of a fruitful rational discussion, at this juncture of earthly time. You may call this tendentious but a truth is worth a thousand lie's.

Those worthies who may have discussed this is not philosophers but mystics and charlatans, according to my not-so humble opinion.

@Jackofalltrades phil,

I would hardly call Hulme & Co. "mystics" and, while I can accept that this may be "un-scientific" (I stress "may") I would hardly call it un-philosophic as this particular subject has been in the area of philosophy since ancient greek times up to the present day (Pirsig comes to mind). Even the problem of measurement in quantum physics, whilst not actively supporting the idea, at least does not rule out the possibility. As I have said, broadly speaking, I agree with most of what you say. I just feel that an element of doubt and open-mindedness does not go amiss. I do not think that discussion on this is "absurd", far from it, and there is no element of truth or lies because, quite simply, we are discussing "possibilities" because the whole argument is based around the fact that proof, one way or the other, is not yet possible for the reasons I have outlined before. The world almost certainly is real but the element of doubt lends itself to interesting debate.
Hey, does a room still exist when you leave it? It's an old and jokey question but there may (stress may) be more to it than we think.

@housby,

housby;119898 wrote:

I would hardly call Hulme & Co. "mystics" and, while I can accept that this may be "un-scientific" (I stress "may") I would hardly call it un-philosophic as this particular subject has been in the area of philosophy since ancient greek times up to the present day (Pirsig comes to mind).

I thank you for introducing me to Hulme (though, at first i thought you may have meant Hume, but i know Hume, a little who did not go into speculation of matter, on the contrary he had ideas of deductive methodologies to draw truths out of experiences and experiments) whom, if he is initialled by T.E, is quite an interesting character which i fond by googling and clicking into a book called Speculation.

Certainly, i perhaps should not have been so dismissive by terming the question unphilosophic.

housby;119898 wrote:

Even the problem of measurement in quantum physics, whilst not actively supporting the idea, at least does not rule out the possibility. As I have said, broadly speaking, I agree with most of what you say. I just feel that an element of doubt and open-mindedness does not go amiss. I do not think that discussion on this is "absurd", far from it, and there is no element of truth or lies because, quite simply, we are discussing "possibilities" because the whole argument is based around the fact that proof, one way or the other, is not yet possible for the reasons I have outlined before.

The proposition inherent in the question, suggests an absurdity of sorts. I will tell you why, just to make amensd to my previous dismissive attitude. But that attitude is not due to lack of consideration. I am a student of Indian Philosophy, and this kind of questions have plagued Indian thought masters milliniuem or ages before Descrates thought of thinking and existence.
Now, If i ask someone who stays at Hongkong, whether his living parents exists in mainland China or not, than 'absurd' would be the first word that will come to that gentleman who may incidently also is an English knowing philosopher.

Absurdity comes into play, because the data given and the proposition arrived at does not logically follow. Therefore, logically it is absurd.

Admittedly, it appears to be a philosophical question, though logically untenable, some derivations into metaphysics, touches into epistemiology and perhaps ontology too, but i am not sure. However, it does take foray into intellectual speculation ( a habit that mankind has got into). However, i do not see it connected to Quantum Physics - from the little i know about QT. Therfore, my 'absurd' reaction.

housby;119898 wrote:

The world almost certainly is real but the element of doubt lends itself to interesting debate.
Hey, does a room still exist when you leave it? It's an old and jokey question but there may (stress may) be more to it than we think.

I do get your point ( that you 'broadly speaking' tend to agree with what i said) but my point is also to do with the notion that all doubts should be cleared before we move on. In hindi we have a saying to the effect that 'eat what you get, don't think of what you did not get'. Because
a 'raging' debate has also been going on about 'existence' itself.

Now imagine two philsoophers in Japan are debating on whether things exist or do not exist, and on everything is an apparition or illusion, but unfortunately for these poor serious studious souls the incident date was 6th August 1945, when precisely the demonic planes drops the Fat Boy on their unfortunate city.
Existence turned into Extinction. Both, however, won their case...... ha ha
It is funny. But tragic too in both the imaginary and the real world.

Now, to this example you can add Free Will and Determinism, both 'raging' issues but frankly, i do not have any inclination to discuss. I know i have my (intellectual) short comings, but absurdity and illogicallity cannot be discussed beyond a point, as far as i am concerend, but i accept that some tend to do it, and are good at it, and perhaps thats why it may be still raging.

@Jackofalltrades phil,

Common-sense states that things exist when not being observed. However, as you show, if a person believes an object is existing somewhere that he is not observing, an occurrence could have changed that objects existence to non-existence. Epistemologically then we can see that we can only be sure of objects existence when we directly observe them, until then they remain as probabilities. Now of course, something like China highly probably is existing right now but I cannot be sure that a meteorite impact has not just disintegrated it and I am about to be killed from the resultant earthquake.

Our metaphysical inferences suggest that an object has a life when it is not being observed but this is not based on any direct evidence. Some forms of idealism are able to account for the evidence we are presented with in life. This may not be common-sensical but as philosophers we should not rule out possibilities. I have yet to hear a definitive argument to all forms of idealism. I actually find our position in such theories quite flattering and thus have a vested interest in them being right.

Also we do not know anything about the intrinsic properties of objects, if we believe indirect-realism, and so what are the objects that are existing when not observed? The things that are waiting to produce the sense-data we receive. I say this because I wish to emphasise how much of the objects are in our minds according to scientific thinking and thus reduce the leap to idealism.

@prothero,

Aemun wrote:

Epistemologically then we can see that we can only be sure of objects existence when we directly observe them, until then they remain as probabilities.

This would even need to be clarified. For I can observe the sun right now, without knowing that three minutes ago it was destroyed. There are many other examples, theoretical and not, where I can be said to be directly observing something, without that something actually existing. Or, perhaps the better way to say it is that it is often hard to discern whether or not we are directly observing something.

Quote:

Also we do not know anything about the intrinsic properties of objects,

Of course we do. Just because we don't know everything about matter does not mean we know nothing about matter. We certainly know a lot more than we did 500 years ago.

@Zetherin,

We know of that objects relationship to our perceptions. It is impossible for us to observe an object in and of itself with no relationship to our senses. What does the object that is in a pitch black room look like? We see the effect of an object in a perceptual environment on our eyes but we cannot remove it from that environment.

Object(cause x) + perceptual environment(cause y) = Perception(effect z)

So we only know x in terms of z, not in terms of x. We can perceive it with different perceptual environments and infer something that must exist to produce those various effects but we do not know the thing itself. It seems ludicrous to talk of something not seen, not heard, not felt etc. but scientific thinking leads us to believe that that thing must exist. That is what I meant, we understand our relationship to matter better but we cannot know anything of it in terms of its own ontology.

@prothero,

Aemun wrote:

That is what I meant, we understand our relationship to matter better but we cannot know anything of it.

I still disagree. Just because we can be mistaken in our perception, it does not follow that all things we observe don't exist, or that we cannot know that something exists. We have learned much about matter, in addition to how we perceive matter.

@prothero,

Well we do know the periodic table and all of the atomic masses of the elements, which is considerably more than was known before these were discovered. We also know an enormous amount more about physical chemistry and the attributes of substances. On the other hand we are now aware that we are not able to discern the 'ultimate constituents of matter' insofar as these used to be conceived as absolute points or discretely existing entities. I still feel, maybe naively, that real philosophical materialism is not tenable in the absence of the 'ultimate object', which is an atom.

Furthermore the relation of perceiver and perceived is a subtle matter. I think the idea that 'existence depends on perception' in such a way that non-perception implies non-existence is mistaken. It is more a matter of saying that the mode of existence of any thing is a function of the manner in which it is perceived. Because of the kinds of minds and senses that H Sapiens has, things exist in a certain way, for us. If we were a radically different type of creature, our notion of existence would also be radically different. But this does not say, as is often thought, that things do not exist when they are not perceived. That is mere speculation.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;120014 wrote:

Furthermore the relation of perceiver and perceived is a subtle matter. I think the idea that 'existence depends on perception' in such a way that non-perception implies non-existence is mistaken. It is more a matter of saying that the mode of existence of any thing is a function of the manner in which it is perceived. Because of the kinds of minds and senses that H Sapiens has, things exist in a certain way, for us. If we were a radically different type of creature, our notion of existence would also be radically different. But this does not say, as is often thought, that things do not exist when they are not perceived. That is mere speculation.

There is one (quite interesting) explanation of how this could happen. If you want to accept the math, that there are multiple dimensions, then by all means perception could be just one of them. What would happen is that things move in and out of the dimension of perception. It would imply that things only exist while they are in that dimension but as soon as they leave it, they cease to exist. This would explain why observation changes data and influences the result of some events. This is not to say that when something moves out of the dimension of perception that it is completely null, instead it just changes it's "substance" to that of which ever dimension it moved into. This is ONLY a possibility, and I have absolutely no way to prove it. Since experiment would require observation, it would fall into the realm of perception that is being tested, so all results would be tainted. The only way you could solve it is by pure math alone, but people rarely ever trust the math until they see it illustrated in some way.

@Jackofalltrades phil,

Jackofalltrades,
Apologies for my typing error. I was, of course, referring to David Hume. Part of his ideas lead to the question: if a child was born with no sense perception at all, no sight, taste, hearing, touch or smell, and if that child was kept alive by whatever means until it was 18 years old or so, would that now adult have a thought in it's head? The answer is almost certainly no, because all our knowledge of the world, including matter, comes from sense perception, and sense perception is a working of the mind. In that sense Hume "proved" that the world is "all in the mind". All our knowledge of the world, including our own sense of self-awareness, comes from sense-peception and, as such, is intrinsically flawed. Self-awareness is based on interaction with the "outside world", the only way we know we exist as individuals is through our knowledge (whatever that be) of whatever is "out there", in other words our knowledge of being other than that which we perceive. This is not to say that matter does not exist other than when we experience it, it may well have intrinsic value, but it does mean that there is a "possibility" that it doesn't. There is no way of knowing that, when the door is shut, that room still exists. Read up on the idea of Schrodinger's Cat.

@Krumple,

Krumple;120017 wrote:

If you want to accept the math, that there are multiple dimensions, then by all means perception could be just one of them.

Kind of interesting, but a cop out in my view, as is the multiverse argument. I don't really entertain these ideas because they are probably impossible to prove or disprove, so they fail my 'what if?' test (in other words, what if they're true - does it make any difference?)

---------- Post added 01-15-2010 at 02:39 PM ----------

also, I don't think the above is a literal reading of David Hume, although it is many years since I have read him. I think to argue that our knowledge is dependent on sense perception is not quite the same as to argue that our knowledge is 'all in the mind'. Both Hume and Locke were empiricists, in insisting that knowledge originated in sense experience, rather than in innate ideas, as did the rationalist philosophers. Kant of course was 'shaken from his dogmatic slumbers' by Hume's work to show the primacy of our intuitions and reason in the foundation of knowledge.

@prothero,

Entropy. Everything in the world of Marxist Dialectic Materialism is Entropy. This includes Quantum Mechanics. If we can detect it, it is Entropy. Noise on the line preventing the original intended meaning from being received. It is deception. It is Satan... Entropy.

The Immaterial realm of pure untainted Information is quintessence. The man behind the curtain. The reason. The meaning. The intent. The ugly truth. The fearsome God.

@housby,

housby;120047 wrote:

Jackofalltrades,
if a child was born with no sense perception at all, no sight, taste, hearing, touch or smell, and if that child was kept alive by whatever means until it was 18 years old or so, would that now adult have a thought in it's head? The answer is almost certainly no, because all our knowledge of the world, including matter, comes from sense perception, and sense perception is a working of the mind. In that sense Hume "proved" that the world is "all in the mind".

And , therefore in one of my initial postings, i brought Mind into the picture, but somehow it was interpretated as quoting someone else's idea.

Anyway, i am not sure of what Hume, may have said or intended, what i am interested in is in question posed in the title of this thread. I had hinted before that all perceptible objects are changable. But, no one took notice. In that light, the question relevent to the thread, would be, why things change. It changes because of the nature of 'matter'. The quantum theory dwelves on the microscopic aspects of 'matter'. Whether the decay of a radioactive atom takes place or not, in a determined manner or not, is in the realm of speculation. If it is random, then no way humans can predict a behaviour, unless pursued diligently by science.

One thing that QM brings out is not just the duality (as per the theory) of 'matter' but also the dual sense of our mind. With the uncertainty principle looming large in quantum world, and Without proper knowledge of the exact functioning of Quantum materials or atoms, it then can only be discussed by speculative theories or philosophies.

As far as the child goes in your experiment, my hunch is that the child has thought. It also depends on what you describe as a thought. A child without the sense's knows it is alive just like a tree knows it is alive. Here knowing may mean feeling or intuition. Cognition will greatly be impaired because such a child will not be able to discern, evaluate, determine, contemplate, reflect etc. The child will not be able to 'taste' the food, but the child will 'know' the 'matter' called 'food' because it's what sustains it/he/ or her.

housby;120047 wrote:

All our knowledge of the world, including our own sense of self-awareness, comes from sense-peception and, as such, is intrinsically flawed. Self-awareness is based on interaction with the "outside world", the only way we know we exist as individuals is through our knowledge (whatever that be) of whatever is "out there", in other words our knowledge of being other than that which we perceive. This is not to say that matter does not exist other than when we experience it, it may well have intrinsic value, but it does mean that there is a "possibility" that it doesn't. There is no way of knowing that, when the door is shut, that room still exists. Read up on the idea of Schrodinger's Cat.

Knowledge of the world doesnot require a brain to process it. In the animal world there are living beings without a central brain system. Sense-data is called perception because the sense-data is carried by neural impluse/charge/energy to the brain. There are impediments and deformities in this process therfore they are perceptions. In the quantum world (quanta) Information - the primary constituent of knowledge is important. See, thats the fun in mystery. We need to distinguish the diffrence between the micro world and macro world. Humans have surveyed the macro world, now we are taking forays into the micro world. Please understand the diffrence in approaches towards knowldge of these two kind of physical worlds.

As said in the preceding para, self awareness does not require sensory knowledge, or knowledge 'from the outside world'.

As far as the issue of 'possibilities' goes it is, and as some one above mentioned is in the realm of uncertainty caused by lack of knowledge or information.

On your prompting, i did read about the S-cat, which i should say is an illustration to demonstrate a point or concept in Quantum Mechanics. Scientists and for that matter Philosophers do play with words as much as we all do it. But it is all dependent on interpretation and discerning the facts out of conception or conceivements.

@Jackofalltrades phil,

Jackofalltrades;120113 wrote:

As far as the child goes in your experiment, my hunch is that the child has thought.

What does that child think about, and how does she think it?

Jackofalltrades;120113 wrote:

It also depends on what you describe as a thought. A child without the sense's knows it is alive just like a tree knows it is alive. Here knowing may mean feeling or intuition.

What does a tree know, and how does it know it? Are you suggesting that trees have feeling or intuition? How does a child with no senses sense a feeling? What intuition will she have about a feeling she cannot sense?

Jackofalltrades;120113 wrote:

Knowledge of the world doesnot require a brain to process it.

What other mechanism other than a brain can collect, store, archive and retrieve knowledge?

@QuinticNon,

QuinticNon;120130 wrote:

What does that child think about, and how does she think it?

What does a tree know, and how does it know it? Are you suggesting that trees have feeling or intuition? How does a child with no senses sense a feeling? What intuition will she have about a feeling she cannot sense?

What other mechanism other than a brain can collect, store, archive and retrieve knowledge?

Very good questions........ follow up of natural and logical progression of a cognitive mind. although i am afraid, this will take us away from the object of this thread. But consciously, i will try and answer those for the greater sake of understandings.

frankly, i am not a scientist. So i have my limitations in the art of explaning things to students. I am a student of life, and with those humble sense would try whatever best i could.

There are three broad questions that you have posed. I will attempt to answer them one after the other.

1) Think, a verb, means use of the mind. What for? to examine, observe, to form opinions, conclusions etc.

Thinking... in the conventional sense, means 'the hard use of mind'. It is a natural process. It is used to reason, evaluate, to learn, know, be aware etc.

Whereas, thought is the power of thinking or process of thinking. It is deeper in the sense that it works on a semblance of intelligence. Here we can understand that thought is a mechanism to think. Which means to know or to be aware. Limited to this rather than th epower of reasoning, calculating etc. This is the basic function of thought or thoughts.

Further, we should understand something about cognition. 'To know', should not be confused with the popular use of the term knowledge. the basic thought or power to think or process of thinking meachnism has nothing to do with the term 'knowledge' in the present intellectual or middleclass conventional sense, if you get what i mean.

Here, therfore, it is better to use the term 'aware'. So what is thought? Thought is the mechanism to be aware.

Now, how do one be aware, unless one is not conscious. Hence, consciousness is important for awareness.

So, now let us turn our focus to housby's child who was painstakingly kept alive till the age of 18 even though he is bereft of any senses. The fact that all of its vital organs are functioning leads us to the fact that the body and body organs are in conscious state of existence, which in other words mean living.

The fact that the body organs are functioning makes the child a living being (not the mind or 'thinking' part) and therfore it is conscious. Once conscious, it means it is aware of itself. The unconscious state is still a living state.

Perhaps, you may argue, in the line that the brain cannot 'think', due to the theory that knowldge comes ONLY because of sensory-perception, needs careful examination of facts and a neat study of the brain. Even if the brain is dead, the body is living. this should be borne in mind.

In this exercise however, brain is not given to be dead. But even if the brain is dead, impulses acting through stimuli or environmental triggers amply demonstrates that living bodies are indeed aware of the surroundings and of itself. Living bodies are not machine who are not aware of itslef.

For e.g. A person in coma, may not be able to talk, taste, hear, smell or touch anything but still lives. The doctor says 'lets wait for a miracle'. I do not believe in miracles, neither does my doctor, but what he means to say is that the body will find a way to fight and survive becuase he knows how cells functions. But this cannot be explained to common distressed masses hence he invokes God or His so called miracles.

Therefore, your notion of 'think' in your question will take you into a wrong approach. In this case the child does not 'think' as you think thinking is all about. Here the child is aware of itslef, and is conscious. Therefore, thought (the unconventional one) exists in the form of neural messages, impluses and that communication between cells takes place as long as it is kept 'alive'. We come to know about this scientifically also. But i would appeal to common sense and logic to deduce the facts about life.

2) If you can reach this point along with me, than from here on our journey of thoughts become simpler and easier.

The tree feels, but whether it has feelings (the conventional sense and meaning of the word) is an open question. In human cognition, the brain processes data to know and be aware. Cognition does not involve emotions. Perhaps emotions and emotional thoughts are related with sensory -perceptions. The tree and the housby's child is well aware of itself and responds to external stimulus, environment and the ability to 'struggle' for life or survive is an important concept in evolutionary biology.

here, one needs to know the subtle way in which our brain/mind and body works, especially cognition. It is frontal science, and i do not claim more knowledge on this front.

3) Now to your last question. It is said that cytoplasm, and there is another constituent of the cell (alleles ? not sure) that are 'known' to collect information. How does the information is processed, collated, deciphered, discerned selected and signalled to other constituents to trigger an action or make a reaction is a question of deep biology. I am not ably qualified in this field but one can deduce by studying behaviour of plants or animals.

If the pitcher plant is not conscious or does not 'feel' how does one think that it can evolve a mechanism of the insect trap and than trap it ingenously and later consume it too.

Does not your pet dog think about you and protect your house too? But if you ask the mecahnism of its 'thinking', than no one can say with certainty, it can be speculated and deduced.

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What is "matter" in the quantum age?

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