What is Real?

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kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 01:36 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116980 wrote:
But during it you wouldnt know so! After all, you are delusional or drugged up!


Yes. That might be true. But why the "but"? There are lots of things I don't know about that are, nevertheless, true.
 
cws910
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 01:37 pm
@Amperage,
Quote:
Just like cws910 pointed out during most dreams you don't know your dreaming until you wake up. So if you were to wake up tomorrow and find out your entire life was a dream what would you make of it?

I think all you could conclude is that it was real to you. And that cannot be taken away from you.


I agree with saying that you should treat life as real! I was using that to say that you should treat dreams as equally valid to life. This is all in thoery of course, but isn't that the purpose of philosophy? To explore the universe and its contents using theoretical situations?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:18 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116984 wrote:
I agree with saying that you should treat life as real! I was using that to say that you should treat dreams as equally valid to life. This is all in thoery of course, but isn't that the purpose of philosophy? To explore the universe and its contents using theoretical situations?


I think I know what it means to treat life as real. It means that it, life, is actually happening. But what does it mean to treat dreams a "equally valid"? I notice you did not say "equally real". That is, I suppose, because dreams are not real at all. So you chose to say, "valid". But could you explain what that means if "valid" does not mean "real" which it obviously does not?
 
cws910
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:33 pm
@richrf,
Because you cannot truly find proof that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, we cannot say that it is real. By saying valid, however, you are saying that you can treat it as real without it being real.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:37 pm
@cws910,
cws910;117038 wrote:
Because you cannot truly find proof that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, we cannot say that it is real. By saying valid, however, you are saying that you can treat it as real without it being real.


That's my views, too. However, how can we ever know we're in a reality, if we ever find one? Like, in the matrix, they fought through all of this stuff, for a city they called Zion. Zion was, "The Real World", whereas The Matrix, (The supposed world that we're living in), was the fake one. How do we know that Zion is real? I've found it best not to question reality anymore, because really....How can we ever tell?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:49 pm
@cws910,
cws910;117038 wrote:
Because you cannot truly find proof that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, we cannot say that it is real. By saying valid, however, you are saying that you can treat it as real without it being real.



Since there is absolutely no reason to believe that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, I can, and would say, that it is not true that anything like that is true. If I had to refrain from asserting anything unless I had absolute proof, there would be very little if anything that I could say. And if everything is a dream, even what is not a dream, then the term "dream" has lost its meaning. We say that what goes on when we are asleep is a dream only because we can contrast it with what goes on when we are awake. If everything is a dream, then nothing is a dream.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 04:48 pm
@kennethamy,
Quinn;117039 wrote:
That's my views, too. However, how can we ever know we're in a reality, if we ever find one? Like, in the matrix, they fought through all of this stuff, for a city they called Zion. Zion was, "The Real World", whereas The Matrix, (The supposed world that we're living in), was the fake one. How do we know that Zion is real? I've found it best not to question reality anymore, because really....How can we ever tell?


. . . and really, what does it matter? Suppose there was an answer to be had, and one had that answer. So what? What then?

kennethamy;117045 wrote:
Since there is absolutely no reason to believe that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, I can, and would say, that it is not true that anything like that is true. If I had to refrain from asserting anything unless I had absolute proof, there would be very little if anything that I could say. And if everything is a dream, even what is not a dream, then the term "dream" has lost its meaning. We say that what goes on when we are asleep is a dream only because we can contrast it with what goes on when we are awake. If everything is a dream, then nothing is a dream.


Exactly.
 
cws910
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 09:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117045 wrote:
Since there is absolutely no reason to believe that what we view as conciousness isn't just a dream from an alternate dimension, I can, and would say, that it is not true that anything like that is true. If I had to refrain from asserting anything unless I had absolute proof, there would be very little if anything that I could say. And if everything is a dream, even what is not a dream, then the term "dream" has lost its meaning. We say that what goes on when we are asleep is a dream only because we can contrast it with what goes on when we are awake. If everything is a dream, then nothing is a dream.



But I am saying that you would have no reason to believe other wise because you would be dreaming!
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 10:13 am
@cws910,
cws910;117275 wrote:
But I am saying that you would have no reason to believe other wise because you would be dreaming!


I could have no reasons when I am asleep. But, what is your point? Not that if I do not know I am dreaming, that I am not dreaming. That is not true. And, neither is it true that if I might be mistaken about being awake that I am not awake.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 12:28 pm
@cws910,
cws910;117275 wrote:
But I am saying that you would have no reason to believe other wise because you would be dreaming!


Just out of curiosity, where would lucid dreaming fit in with all of this?
I have fully lucid dreams now and then, and am completely aware that
I'm asleep and dreaming, and can even control to a degree the content
of these dreams.

Lucid dream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
cws910
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 04:15 pm
@richrf,
Deja vu is what I would analogise to lucid dreaming.
And yet again, I am just arguing this in thoery, I do not truely believe that we arn't real, I just consider it a minute possibility.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 05:41 pm
@cws910,
cws910;117418 wrote:
Deja vu is what I would analogise to lucid dreaming.
And yet again, I am just arguing this in thoery, I do not truely believe that we arn't real, I just consider it a minute possibility.



That we are imaginary creatures? Like Mickey Mouse? What kind of possibility would that be? Mickey Mouse cannot believe he is Mickey Mouse. We can believe we are whoever we are.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:54 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117439 wrote:
We can believe we are whoever we are.


I like to spend at least a small portion of each day believing I am someone I am not. Is that inauthentic or unauthentic?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 12:56 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;117805 wrote:
I like to spend at least a small portion of each day believing I am someone I am not. Is that inauthentic or unauthentic?


Perhaps if you spent a greater portion of each day believing that you were someone you were not, you would develop qualities of the person you desired to be, and then you would not be either inauthentic or unauthentic?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 01:02 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117807 wrote:
Perhaps if you spent a greater portion of each day believing that you were someone you were not, you would develop qualities of the person you desired to be, and then you would not be either inauthentic or unauthentic?


More likely, the loony bin awaits, if you believe you are Napoleon.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 01:14 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117807 wrote:
Perhaps if you spent a greater portion of each day believing that you were someone you were not, you would develop qualities of the person you desired to be, and then you would not be either inauthentic or unauthentic?


I don't necessarily desire to be the person I temporarily believe I am.

Sometimes it's useful for other people to believe that I believe I am a different person. My boss, for instance, believes I believe that what I have is a career, when in reality, I believe it's just a job. If I spend too much time believing I am the person my boss believes I am would I develop the qualities of someone I don't believe I want to be?

Sometimes it's entertaining to even spend a small amount of time believing in things in which I don't believe.
 
 

 
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