What is Real?

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richrf
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 08:11 am
@xris,
xris;78975 wrote:
When the seat of conscious reality is not known, where does it go to when we sleep?I wonder, if thoughts are external to our existance,do their vibrations linger in our sleeping brain?It appears we can only have rational thoughts when not sleeping,are we not capable of receiving this data when sleeping.Its like a radio being switched off and on.


Yes, I too am wondering whether consciousness does not extend beyond our physical body. It sure seems so. Even the way we visualize stuff. It does not seem to be in our brain - here. Everything seems to be outside - there.

And the radio does seem like it is being switched on and off and being tuned all the time. These are observations that Rupert Sheldrake made in his books and essays. It does make one think where is consciousness happening?

Thanks for the comments.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 09:52 am
@xris,
xris;78975 wrote:
When the seat of conscious reality is not known, where does it go to when we sleep?I.


That is exactly like asking, where does the light go, when we click the switch, and the light goes out?

---------- Post added 07-23-2009 at 11:58 AM ----------

xris;78952 wrote:
The point trying to be made is that when you are actually dreaming, that is reality for you, its only after you awake you are aware of its illusion.Is reality an illusion? is there a higher reality we are not aware of?Lucid dreaming makes you aware of the fact you are not dreaming,is there a state of mind that can convince you that this existance is not the only reality?


I suppose what you mean by, "reality for you" is that I believe it is reality. Well, even that isn't quite true. At most I dream I believe it is reality. In any case, what is reality for me, need not be reality. If I dream I am in Africa, that may be "reality for me", but it certainly is not, reality. "X for me", only means, "I believe it is X".
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 10:30 am
@richrf,
richrf;78573 wrote:
Hi all,

Are our dream experiences every bit as real as our daytime experiences?

Dream experiences tend take place in a more fantasy/magic like landscape (to borrow from Robin Robertson), but they do tend to retain certain aspects of our awake being most notably our emotions, e.g. happiness, sadness, fear, lust, exultation, etc.

If dreams are as real as the awake state while we are experiencing them, then which is reality and if both are real, then why do we experience reality so differently? What is experiencing this reality? Are emotions the only aspect of us that are real since they seem to be the only stable aspect between states of reality?

Rich

In this age of humanitarian secularism we have lost our ability to confer value on to many aspects of life -- Dreams are one of these things. One theory is that dreams are meant to prepare us for future events. This seems rather tenable to me, at least as someone who has spent time and effort cultivating his dream life.

Empirically, we can describe something as real if it has the correct causal relation arising from a set of physical prior histories. Given that the dream state is triggered by a flux of subconscious information-stream, it is not so much different from waking reality in the most basic sense. It is just as 'real' in this sense.

The main difference I see is in regards to Memory-formation: When dreaming (just as when in other altered states of mind), your mind fails to 'properly' file away the memories in the correct databanks. Short term memory is almost dissolved into the nether, while long-term memory becomes slippery and unreliable. We consider our waking experiences as more reliable indicators of reality because we form more reliable coherent memories, using language programs to stagnate the flow of reality into static models. It follows from this that we come to rely on a patterned and coherent interpretation of reality >> to us, these coherent patterns become more real and causality is introduced as a necessary and sufficient condition for experience. Chaos is un-knowable because it is always in motion: Our construct of what is 'real' actually pinpoints the boundaries of our epistemology, not the boundaries of reality.
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 12:13 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;78999 wrote:
That is exactly like asking, where does the light go, when we click the switch, and the light goes out?

---------- Post added 07-23-2009 at 11:58 AM ----------



I suppose what you mean by, "reality for you" is that I believe it is reality. Well, even that isn't quite true. At most I dream I believe it is reality. In any case, what is reality for me, need not be reality. If I dream I am in Africa, that may be "reality for me", but it certainly is not, reality. "X for me", only means, "I believe it is X".
I understand the reasons why a light goes out when the electricity is switched off,im no light bulb and my electric supply is sound at the moment.Have you read anything Ive written?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 12:31 pm
@rhinogrey,
Hi there,

rhinogrey;79009 wrote:
In this age of humanitarian secularism we have lost our ability to confer value on to many aspects of life -- Dreams are one of these things. One theory is that dreams are meant to prepare us for future events. This seems rather tenable to me, at least as someone who has spent time and effort cultivating his dream life.


Yes, I have read about this idea. It seems reasonable that we would symbolically walk through possible future scenarios.

Quote:
Empirically, we can describe something as real if it has the correct causal relation arising from a set of physical prior histories. Given that the dream state is triggered by a flux of subconscious information-stream, it is not so much different from waking reality in the most basic sense. It is just as 'real' in this sense.


Yes, and this is the quandary that I see. It seems real when we are a asleep, but when we are awake it feels different. Why?

Quote:
The main difference I see is in regards to Memory-formation: When dreaming (just as when in other altered states of mind), your mind fails to 'properly' file away the memories in the correct databanks.


I tend not to think of things that the mind does as failing to do something properly. My perspective is that it is doing what it should do - but why?

Quote:
Short term memory is almost dissolved into the nether, while long-term memory becomes slippery and unreliable.


Yes, this is how it seems. However, I am careful in that I am awake when I am remembering my dream. Things may have changed substantially between asleep and awake. I may be remembering stuff, but only that which I choose to remember. It is, as you say, very slippery.

Quote:
We consider our waking experiences as more reliable indicators of reality because we form more reliable coherent memories, using language programs to stagnate the flow of reality into static models.


Yes, I would agree. And there are other minds around us who are helping us form a consensus on what is real and what is not. These however are basically joint, co-mingled experiences.

Quote:
It follows from this that we come to rely on a patterned and coherent interpretation of reality >> to us, these coherent patterns become more real and causality is introduced as a necessary and sufficient condition for experience.


Yes, I agree. The process of forming a joint, coherent reality with other consciousness seems to be the task of the day, every morning. This does beg the question, why we all do this?

Quote:
Chaos is un-knowable because it is always in motion: Our construct of what is 'real' actually pinpoints the boundaries of our epistemology, not the boundaries of reality.


Could be.

Thanks for your comments.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 01:26 pm
@xris,
xris;79026 wrote:
I understand the reasons why a light goes out when the electricity is switched off,im no light bulb and my electric supply is sound at the moment.Have you read anything Ive written?


Right, the light doesn't go anywhere. And neither does consciousness.
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 01:36 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;79052 wrote:
Right, the light doesn't go anywhere. And neither does consciousness.
If you have a conscious thought you are awake,you cant have them asleep.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 03:10 pm
@xris,
xris;79056 wrote:
If you have a conscious thought you are awake,you cant have them asleep.


That is right. So? (Wow, that is really a run-on sentence. I had to read it three times before I got it. Why did you use a comma rather than a period?)
 
Yogi DMT
 
Reply Thu 23 Jul, 2009 10:42 pm
@richrf,
Well since reality is all relative to what our mind concludes and what we can deduct from our environment, dreams are just as real and what we know as real life. The only difference is reality follows a set a rules that it rarely breaks. In the dream world if you start to observe your surrounds and try to define properties, you'll probably realize that there is no definite set of laws that can be used to analyze the world. Our perception of reality really comes down to our senses, mainly visuals. The only way we can find difference in a mentally created world and a commonly inhabited world is through the perdictability and reliability. The world as we know it will stay the same and will always be there (excluding any major catastrophies Razz) while any other realities might be limited in terms of access and predictability. We can always assume if we drop an object from a height above the ground, that object will fall towards the ground due to gravity. That is predictability while as in dream world or other worlds, the randomness is greater. Emotions help you define your being but that's not to say that emotions are possible or somewhat real in a dream. The question is... if those emotions will stay consistent and constant with the type of mood or actions they stem out from. Only in reality will we always or at least for the most part be happy when we get what we want and then sad when we don't. For me at least, this argument is all about predictability and this is why we can create laws of nature and our world.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 03:45 am
@Yogi DMT,
Consciousness is not the ability to react with our environment through our senses,its the ability to be aware of ourselves and have thoughts that are relevant.In dreams we are not the masters ,we dont direct the dream it directs us,we merely observe,in the conscious mind we have control.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 04:19 am
@richrf,
richrf;78645 wrote:

Do you think that some people may have sensory abilities beyond those that you or I might think of as the common senses.
Interesting thought. Thanks. But do you have emotions when you are dreaming and have no sense of your body?

Hi Rich,
Yes intuition, i will base decisions on it.
What do you mean by body? Sometimes i see my body, only rarely will i feel anything.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 08:37 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;79212 wrote:
Hi Rich,
Yes intuition, i will base decisions on it.
What do you mean by body? Sometimes i see my body, only rarely will i feel anything.


Yes, same with me. I find it interesting that when the mind is asleep it loses this sense of physical body - something that it has when it is awake. Poof! Sense of body is gone. For me it is fascinating to observe. How does this happen and why?

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 08:53 am
@richrf,
richrf;79284 wrote:
Yes, same with me. I find it interesting that when the mind is asleep it loses this sense of physical body - something that it has when it is awake. Poof! Sense of body is gone. For me it is fascinating to observe. How does this happen and why?

Rich


Because the sleeping person is asleep and unconscious? Just a wild guess, of course.

---------- Post added 07-24-2009 at 10:56 AM ----------

Caroline;79212 wrote:
Hi Rich,
Yes intuition, i will base decisions on it.
What do you mean by body? Sometimes i see my body, only rarely will i feel anything.


No one stops you from basing decisions on intuition, or even, the flip of a coin. The question is whether is something you should do.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 08:57 am
@richrf,
RE:Kennethamy Yes but sometimes I am aware of my body in that i do feel.

---------- Post added 07-24-2009 at 09:58 AM ----------

Well when i've based my decision on intuition its turned out to be the right desicion.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 09:06 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;79294 wrote:
Because the sleeping person is asleep and unconscious? Just a wild guess, of course.


Unconscious? Define please.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 09:20 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;79296 wrote:
RE:Kennethamy Yes but sometimes I am aware of my body in that i do feel.

---------- Post added 07-24-2009 at 09:58 AM ----------

Well when i've based my decision on intuition its turned out to be the right desicion.


So sometimes you are aware, when you are sleeping lightly, but not when you are sleeping heavily.

I notice you did not say "whenever" you do so you are right. Are you? As Francis Bacon called it, when talking about how we count only the positive instances of what we believe, but tend to forget about, or actually do not remember the negative instances, "the neglect of negative instances". Cognitive psychologists have studies this very human phenomenon. They call it, "the confirmation fallacy". The psychologist, B.F.Skinner, studied this phenomenon even if pigeons. He called it, "Superstition in the Pigeon". It is on the 'Net, I am sure, if you want to look it up. You would be surprised what can be learned from a little logic and science. Scientists have also devoted a lot of study to what happen during sleep, and various kinds of sleep.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 09:34 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;79305 wrote:
So sometimes you are aware, when you are sleeping lightly, but not when you are sleeping heavily.

I notice you did not say "whenever" you do so you are right. Are you? As Francis Bacon called it, when talking about how we count only the positive instances of what we believe, but tend to forget about, or actually do not remember the negative instances, "the neglect of negative instances". Cognitive psychologists have studies this very human phenomenon. They call it, "the confirmation fallacy". The psychologist, B.F.Skinner, studied this phenomenon even if pigeons. He called it, "Superstition in the Pigeon". It is on the 'Net, I am sure, if you want to look it up. You would be surprised what can be learned from a little logic and science. Scientists have also devoted a lot of study to what happen during sleep, and various kinds of sleep.

No what I mean is that when im dreaming occasionally i will see my body and I will occasionally feel it.
I base my decisions on a combination of things logic being one of them, sometimes it wont be a combination it'll be just logic for instance. Im not right in every decision I make but alot of the times my intuition can be right.
I think you need to be a bit more specific about Bacon and these negative instances please?
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 09:41 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;79309 wrote:
No what I mean is that when im dreaming occasionally i will see my body and I will occasionally feel it.
I base my decisions on a combination of things logic being one of them, sometimes it wont be a combination it'll be just logic for instance. Im not right in every decision I make but alot of the times my intuition can be right.
I think you need to be a bit more specific about Bacon and these negative instances please?


Hi Caroline,

I base my stock market decisions entirely on gut feel. There is really no other way, because everyone is guessing where the economy might be one year from today. I do use information, e.g. monetary and fiscal policies, but the ultimate decision is entirely intuitive.

Rich
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 24 Jul, 2009 09:53 am
@richrf,
richrf;79310 wrote:
Hi Caroline,

I base my stock market decisions entirely on gut feel. There is really no other way, because everyone is guessing where the economy might be one year from today. I do use information, e.g. monetary and fiscal policies, but the ultimate decision is entirely intuitive.

Rich

Hey Rich,
Yes that's exactly what Im talking about. And you can use your gut feeling about people too, for instance when someone is rude to me just for the sake of being rude then I can tell that that person has problems, could be insecurities or whatever so I wont be childish and retaliate, I base that decision on logic, my first reaciton would be that he's/she's a small minded nasty person with nothing positive to give but really there is a problem there which if you look underneath there's probably a reasonable person, probably. I think it's combination of all of them.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 25 Jul, 2009 12:41 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;79309 wrote:
No what I mean is that when im dreaming occasionally i will see my body and I will occasionally feel it.
I base my decisions on a combination of things logic being one of them, sometimes it wont be a combination it'll be just logic for instance. Im not right in every decision I make but alot of the times my intuition can be right.
I think you need to be a bit more specific about Bacon and these negative instances please?


Bacon tells the story of his visiting a collection of paintings with a friend, and they stopped in front of a painting of people who had just survived a shipwreck and were on the shore, on their knees, thanking God for having saved them. Bacon's companion remarked on the piousness of the people in the painting, and their gratitude. And Bacon asked him, "And where are all those people who were not saved, and who drowned"?
 
 

 
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