What is Real?

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prothero
 
Reply Sun 26 Jul, 2009 11:34 pm
@richrf,
I am afraid dreams would fall under the realm of personal subjective experience and while they may seem very "real" to the experiencing individual they can not be objectively verified by anyone else.
Are they "real"? a matter of definition?
Do we have a form of a priori knowledge or knowledge except by sensory perception?
A question that has occupied philosophers for centuries? Rationalists versus empiricists.
Im afraid suppressed knowledge of prior lifes is beyond me.
I do like Platos idea about remembered ideal forms but even thats a little too far out for me.
 
richrf
 
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 07:31 am
@prothero,
prothero;79716 wrote:
I am afraid dreams would fall under the realm of personal subjective experience and while they may seem very "real" to the experiencing individual they can not be objectively verified by anyone else.


That is the beauty of dreams. They are both real to the dreamer and personal. An entirely different experience. Everyone one has them, yet they have not been addressed. Yet, philosophers have over the centuries pre-occupied themselves with the possibility of some objective form that may be beyond our personal senses. It is interesting, isn't it?

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 08:49 am
@richrf,
richrf;79759 wrote:
That is the beauty of dreams. They are both real to the dreamer and personal. An entirely different experience. Everyone one has them, yet they have not been addressed. Yet, philosophers have over the centuries pre-occupied themselves with the possibility of some objective form that may be beyond our personal senses. It is interesting, isn't it?

Rich

Being real to the dreamer does not make the dream real. So, your remark is irrelevant. Dreams have certainly been addressed by science. There is a great deal of research, both physiologically, and psychologically. And, philosophically, philosophers have discussed them, from Plato to the present day. You should try to acquaint yourself with the literature. What would an "objective form" be? It is an objective fact that dreams occur, and it is also an objective fact that it would be only an accident if what was actually happening also occurred as a part of the content of a dream. So dreams can be likened to sleep-hallucinations.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 10:30 pm
@prothero,
Quote:
Dreams exist, but what happens in dreams is not real. So, "Dreams are real" may mean, "Dreams exist" and that is true. But, "Dreams are real" may mean, what happens in dreams is real, and that, of course, is false. Just a simple matter of ambiguity, and I have cleared it up by exposing the ambiguity.


Well, what is real? A materialist might say that whatever we can see/touch/smell/taste/feel (physically), is what's real. But in my honest opinion, we will never know what real is. There are so many different ways this world can be, besides the common perception of it. Let's get matrix-y. It can be a computer program. You, reading this post, can be the only real person in the world, and everyone else can be programed by someone who is also real to talk to you.

We can also be figments of your imagination.

What we consider to be a life time, could be just a dream for our real[/i] selves.

All these abstract ideas wouldn't be suspect to people, for there is no evidence. They also, (although they do extract deep thought) sound pretty silly. Who would like to think that their entire life time is a dream? I mean, with all the hard work we put into life.... So many possibilities are there, and it's hard for me to be certain that anything is real anymore. And when (and if) I find whatever's real, I'll still be the type of person to question it's reality.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 10:39 pm
@Quinn phil,
A dream is "real" in the sense that it is vividly experienced. But what we dream alone is called unreal, for this society is biased against private experience. Only what the tribe can see is real. And it's this bias against private experience that makes "what is real?" such a good question.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 10:56 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112282 wrote:
A dream is "real" in the sense that it is vividly experienced. But what we dream alone is called unreal, for this society is biased against private experience. Only what the tribe can see is real. And it's this bias against private experience that makes "what is real?" such a good question.


Well, that goes back to trust. However, everyone born into the world with working eyes has seen what they believe to be "real". You aren't born into thinking about this kind of stuff, that there could be other realities, or that this couldn't be a reality at all.

When I was eight, and I watched the matrix for the first time, I was like, "I don't understand what this movie means, but damn, the action is really cool." Going back to Joe and Jim, Joe would stay like this. I mean, he may mature out of saying things like, "The action is really cool". He'll/She'll think it though, of course. He'll/She'll know what the concept is trying to say, but he/she won't think about it as much. When I watched the matrix again, after I had turned fourteen, it sent me into days of thinking, and literally sparked my philosophical interest. I mean, this movie was meant to be a sci-fi action movie, and for me, it was something I almost believed in.

I only started to believe it though, because it could have been real. No one could prove to me that it wasn't, so I was convinced. When I asked people about it, and they seemed completely uninterested, I took that as, "They can't prove me wrong, so it's real." Well, you couldn't prove me wrong, of course, but you could persuade me so. My friend finally told me, "It's a science fiction movie, for nerds."

This got me thinking. It of course, got me out of the matrix phase, but brought me into a completely new one. "Now, what if our lives are science fiction? What if we're showcased on an episode of twilight zone, where this entire world is just an experiment?" We could be experiments of a little kid, in a world where people are 1,000,000x smarter than us. His first grade experiment would be creating an ever-expanding universe. He's god.

Maybe that's the reason he doesn't have time to care for all of us. And the apocalypse is when the teacher decides to take the project off the wall and give it back to the kid, where he takes it home and throws it away. He got a B-, for his universe.

So many possibilities, so many of them just as "logical" to me as the one we are living in right now. I think the only reason people would disagree is because they live here. What proof have we that we are what we think we are?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 10:58 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;112281 wrote:
Well, what is real? A materialist might say that whatever we can see/touch/smell/taste/feel (physically), is what's real. But in my honest opinion, we will never know what real is. There are so many different ways this world can be, besides the common perception of it. Let's get matrix-y. It can be a computer program. You, reading this post, can be the only real person in the world, and everyone else can be programed by someone who is also real to talk to you.

We can also be figments of your imagination.

What we consider to be a life time, could be just a dream for our real[/i] selves.

All these abstract ideas wouldn't be suspect to people, for there is no evidence. They also, (although they do extract deep thought) sound pretty silly. Who would like to think that their entire life time is a dream? I mean, with all the hard work we put into life.... So many possibilities are there, and it's hard for me to be certain that anything is real anymore. And when (and if) I find whatever's real, I'll still be the type of person to question it's reality.


So, then, do you believe your dreams are just as real as your daily life? Or, in other words, how do you differentiate between the two? Or do you even?

What about a real person, as opposed to a cardboard cut-out of a person? Can you differentiate between the two? What about a real mouse, instead of a stuffed mouse?

What about real diamonds, as opposed to fake diamonds? It seems dealers can differentiate between the two (and charge considerably more for the former).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:05 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;112284 wrote:


This got me thinking. It of course, got me out of the matrix phase, but brought me into a completely new one. "Now, what if our lives are science fiction? What if we're showcased on an episode of twilight zone, where this entire world is just an experiment?" We could be experiments of a little kid, in a world where people are 1,000,000x smarter than us. His first grade experiment would be creating an ever-expanding universe. He's god. Maybe that's the reason he doesn't have time to care for all of us. And the apocalypse is when the teacher decides to take the project off the wall and give it back to the kid, where he takes it home and throws it away. He got a B-, for his universe.

Today's sci-fi is tomorrow's Christmas present. Just imagine going back to Athens with a helicopter and a couple of ham radios. The Matrix really was a brilliant movie. It touched on so many great themes. Just think of the red pill / blue pill. That's a perfect example of truth and motive. So things a person can only find out by having the courage to look. And some boxes cannot be closed again. When Neo sees the code beneath the "illusion" at the end, this is like Pythagoras. Then of course there's the idea of an illusion being sustained in order to exploit those caught within it. The word "matrix" is tied to the word mother. Jung talks about the "devouring mother" which reappears in myths all over the world. Like the witch who wants to eat Hansel and Gretel. Then there's the female prophet character who is something like Sophia, I suppose you could say. It was a ridiculously exciting movie the first time one saw it. And then many scenes are re-watchable and perhaps more important something to think about. I salute your imagination! I doubt you're the type to lose it in the hustle for success.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:05 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112286 wrote:
So, then, do you believe your dreams are just as real as your daily life? Or, in other words, how do you differentiate between the two? Or do you even?

What about a real person, as opposed to a cardboard cut-out of a person. Can you differentiate between the two?

What about real diamonds, as opposed to fake diamonds? It seems dealers can differentiate between the two (and charge considerably more for the former).


Alright, let's keep going with the real comparisons.

A real "Yu-Gi-Oh" card, as opposed to a fake one. A real Yu-Gi-Oh card has a golden box in the left hand corner, whereas a fake one does not. That is only covering, what i like to call "The 1st dimension of real". That's the difference between a fake and a real diamond. Fools Gold and Real gold. Fake shoes and real shoes. Bootleg and legal. Exedra. That doesn't matter, because it's all material anyways.

Dreams and real life. Dreams have been scientifically proven to be reactions of what our minds take in on a daily basis. I don't take dreams to the next level, because I have an idea of what they are. It's the things I can't know about for sure, that I'm curious about.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:07 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112287 wrote:
Today's sci-fi is tomorrow's Christmas present. Just imagine going back to Athens with a helicopter and a couple of ham radios. The Matrix really was a brilliant movie. It touched on so many great themes. Just think of the red pill / blue pill. That's a perfect example of truth and motive. So things a person can only find out by having the courage to look. And some boxes cannot be closed again. When Neo sees the code beneath the "illusion" at the end, this is like Pythagoras. Then of course there's the idea of an illusion being sustained in order to exploit those caught within it. The word "matrix" is tied to the word mother. Jung talks about the "devouring mother" which reappears in myths all over the world. Like the witch who wants to eat Hansel and Gretel. Then there's the female prophet character who is something like Sophia, I suppose you could say. It was a ridiculously exciting movie the first time one saw it. And then many scenes are re-watchable and perhaps more important something to think about. I salute your imagination! I doubt you're the type to lose it in the hustle for success.


Even in the Matrix, Neo acknowledged there was a real world. And, in fact, that was what he was fighting to restore.

---------- Post added 12-18-2009 at 12:09 AM ----------

Quinn wrote:
Dreams and real life. Dreams have been scientifically proven to be reactions of what our minds take in on a daily basis. I don't take dreams to the next level, because I have an idea of what they are. It's the things I can't know about for sure, that I'm curious about.


What are you curious about? Say you dream you were a pirate on a pirate ship. Would you wake up and think you had really been a pirate on a pirate ship? I think you would be able to distinguish the dream world from the real world (pending you didn't have any mental illnesses). What do you think?
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:11 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112287 wrote:
Today's sci-fi is tomorrow's Christmas present. Just imagine going back to Athens with a helicopter and a couple of ham radios. The Matrix really was a brilliant movie. It touched on so many great themes. Just think of the red pill / blue pill. That's a perfect example of truth and motive. So things a person can only find out by having the courage to look. And some boxes cannot be closed again. When Neo sees the code beneath the "illusion" at the end, this is like Pythagoras. Then of course there's the idea of an illusion being sustained in order to exploit those caught within it. The word "matrix" is tied to the word mother. Jung talks about the "devouring mother" which reappears in myths all over the world. Like the witch who wants to eat Hansel and Gretel. Then there's the female prophet character who is something like Sophia, I suppose you could say. It was a ridiculously exciting movie the first time one saw it. And then many scenes are re-watchable and perhaps more important something to think about. I salute your imagination! I doubt you're the type to lose it in the hustle for success.


Thanks! I salute yours as well, and I will never lose it. Yeah, that movie just constantly kept me thinking. Wasn't bored for a second when watching or discussing the theme of that movie. Remember the guy who betrayed Morphius and the crew, by shooting up one of the crew members, and killing him? The agent let him go back into the matrix, where he wasn't constantly surrounded by darkness and stuff. That showed me that pursuing whatever is real, and whatever the truth is, can be dark and horrible. He went back to the matrix, knowing that it was fake. He drank the wine, and knew it wasn't real. But, he still enjoyed it. That shows that he was a Joe. Laughing

---------- Post added 12-18-2009 at 12:15 AM ----------

Quote:


What are you curious about? Say you dream you were a pirate on a pirate ship. Would you wake up and think you had really been a pirate on a pirate ship? I think you would be able to distinguish the dream world from the real world (pending you didn't have any mental illnesses). What do you think?


Of course I wouldn't. You know why? Because I never know what i really am. Had I woken up in my bed where the world wants me to be. The world wants me to think that nothing is wrong; that nothing is 'out of order'. I'm not saying that life is perfect, I'm saying that it's far to stable to be real. You wouldn't understand what I'm saying, for it's completely subjective and weird; I think that I live in constant illusion. Joining this forum has cleared some, and I still need to clear more out of the way.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:20 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112289 wrote:
Even in the Matrix, Neo acknowledged there was a real world. And, in fact, that was what he was fighting to restore.


True, but that real world was also in a sense created by a choice. Had he taken the other pill, he would have called the matrix the "real" world.

Also, I've just finished writing the Matrix part 4. Turns out the first 3 movies are the dream of a 7 dimensional being with 22 arms. The dream-cartridge responsible for the first three movies was created by an artist on planet Dandruff known as Xenox and inserted into the Pseudo-Experience 7000, something all the seven-dimensional kids were getting for Umpha that year (something like our Christmas, and there years are shorter than ours.).

At the moment I can't think of anything more Divine than the human imagination. But that's just my truth. What is real is anything we take for real. Sometimes it overlaps with what others call real. Sometimes not. But it's foolish to throw something away just because it doesn't get a majority vote as to its existence. Merry Umpha!
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:27 pm
@richrf,
Quinn wrote:
You wouldn't understand what I'm saying, for it's completely subjective and weird; I think that I live in constant illusion.


What is this illusion, you think you live, contrasted with? Reality? Surely not, as you don't believe reality exists. Illusion means nothing without the juxtaposition with reality, for illusions are distortions of reality.

Reconstructo wrote:
True, but that real world was also in a sense created by a choice. Had he taken the other pill, he would have called the matrix the "real" world.


I believe many of the humans that were in the machine world knew they were in the machine world, and would not, under any circumstances, call it the real world. In fact, that is what the movie is about. It is about (at least in the later movies) Zion battling the machines, because the people of Zion did not want to accept what they were living in as the real world. So, why you think Neo would have called the matrix the real world, I don't know.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:31 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112297 wrote:
What is this illusion, you think you live, contrasted with? Reality? Surely not, as you don't believe reality exists. Illusion means nothing without the juxtaposition of reality, for illusion are distortions of reality.


I believe that what is commonly referred to as reality is my illusion. You must understand that the reality I'm referring to is the one most often referred to. It's what you're 'Living in'. It's what I'm 'Living in'.

That's what I'm trying to get across, with the illusions-reality relation. I believe that there is one reality. I also think, or, 'have the feeling', that there are many illusions created from this one reality, and it's probable that we're living in one of them.

Reconstructo;112295 wrote:
True, but that real world was also in a sense created by a choice. Had he taken the other pill, he would have called the matrix the "real" world.

Also, I've just finished writing the Matrix part 4. Turns out the first 3 movies are the dream of a 7 dimensional being with 22 arms. The dream-cartridge responsible for the first three movies was created by an artist on planet Dandruff known as Xenox and inserted into the Pseudo-Experience 7000, something all the seven-dimensional kids were getting for Umpha that year (something like our Christmas, and there years are shorter than ours.).

At the moment I can't think of anything more Divine than the human imagination. But that's just my truth. What is real is anything we take for real. Sometimes it overlaps with what others call real. Sometimes not. But it's foolish to throw something away just because it doesn't get a majority vote as to its existence. Merry Umpha!


LMAO! Laughing
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:35 pm
@Quinn phil,
Quinn;112299 wrote:
I believe that reality is my illusion.


Then what is an illusion in your illusion?
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:36 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112301 wrote:
Then what is an illusion in your illusion?


Another illusion? (I changed my post after I posted it, and before you quoted it. But, the main idea stays the same. Another illusion is what an illusion created by an illusion is. Or maybe you can give it a fancy name, like- "Ricochet Illusion", or, "Double Illusion".)
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112297 wrote:
So, why you think Neo would have called the matrix the real world, I don't know.


Neo wasn't shown the real world until he chose the red pill. The "real" world didn't exist for him at all until he chose to see an unknown truth.

We see the beginning of the movie especially thru Neo's eyes. The matrix only becomes the matrix in contrast to the "real" world -- which is "Created" by the choice of the red pill. This is like non-dual experience being processed into subjective and objective.

Should we not remind ourselves that the "real world" in the movie matrix was itself an illusion of Hollywood? There's really know way to prove we aren't brains in a vat. We could also be seven-dimensional aliens playing a video game that is designed to seem real. Just as we (apparent) humans used to play 2-dimensional video games like pong. These seven dimensional aliens have lifespans of 2000000 years. A human life span is just a little entertainment before dinner, something to chat about over desert. If we deny the possibility we have our reasons. Truth and motive.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:47 pm
@richrf,
Quinn;112302 wrote:
Another illusion?


And what would that illusion in your illusion be contrasted with? Are there real illusions and fake illusions in your illusion? If you have nothing to compare it to, how do you know it's an illusion? And if you don't know what's an illusion in your illusion, why would you think there are illusions in your illusion?

Just because something is logically possible, doesn't mean it's plausible. And knowing something is logically possible isn't a good reason to think that it is plausible. You should always have a good reason to doubt. And if you seek a good reason but do not find one, I suggest you do not doubt at all, for then you have dismissed rationality.

Reconstructo wrote:
Should we not remind ourselves that the "real world" in the movie matrix was itself an illusion of Hollywood? There's really know way to prove we aren't brains in a vat. We could also be seven-dimensional aliens playing a video game that is designed to seem real. Just as we (apparent) humans used to play 2-dimensional video games like pong. These seven dimensional aliens have lifespans of 2000000 years. A human life span is just a little entertainment before dinner, something to chat about over desert. If we deny the possibility we have our reasons. Truth and motive.


To doubt, you should have good reason. The things you say are logically possible, but that does not mean that I should consider them as plausible. Until we are presented with a reason to believe them plausible, we should not. If we do, without a good reason, we are being silly. And that is what children's books are made of.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 17 Dec, 2009 11:55 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112306 wrote:
. Until we are presented with a reason to believe them plausible, we should not.


I agree, but some "lies" are justified by their results. An army with god on their side is perhaps more likely to survive. A person who just "knows" they are gifted is more likely to manifest giftedness. Tell children that the "truth" about them is that they are inferior, and chances are they will be. Truth and power ride around in the same limousine.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 06:39 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112308 wrote:
I agree, but some "lies" are justified by their results. An army with god on their side is perhaps more likely to survive. A person who just "knows" they are gifted is more likely to manifest giftedness. Tell children that the "truth" about them is that they are inferior, and chances are they will be. Truth and power ride around in the same limousine.


Seems to me that if you tell a child the truth that he is inferior, he will be because he is. How could it be true he is inferior, and he not be inferior? Just as if you tell him he is five feet tall, and that is true, then he will be five feet tall.

What is real is what is not not-real.
 
 

 
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