What does it mean to say that X exists, or does not exist?

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kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 11:00 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;100476 wrote:


I also think it amazing that we are debating it. And, it depends on what is meant by "prove". Nothing can be prove with absolute certainty. So if that is your standard of proof, then we cannot prove we are physical things. Of course, we also have minds. Now, it may be that minds are also physical. And if that is true, then we are not only physical things, but we are only physical things. On the other hand, if the mind is not physical, then, although we are physical things, we are not only physical things.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 06:33 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100474 wrote:
Properties are features of some thing, like redness, or height, or intelligence, or beauty. Ideas do exist, for instance, the idea of a unicorn, or the idea of democracy. Words certainly exist. The properties of words are, how they are spelled, pronounced, what they mean, and so on.

Properties (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)


kennethamy;100433 wrote:
Isn't it true that when we seek a definition of a referring term, that we are asking about the properties of what the term refers to?
I think it depends on the thing being defined. If we're defining a kind or category, like mermaids, we can easily define it by its properties. But remember, a kind has no outward representation. A kind is an abstraction.

Consider defining Dublin, Ireland by its properties.

We can do that. Dublin, Ireland has a specific set of properties.

Dublin, Ireland existed 200 years ago with a different set of properties.

How many Dublins are there? (flux)

I'll be out of touch for a while, so I'll cut to the chase. Start subtracting properties so that you can get to the ones that haven't changed. When you get there, you'll discover that you have defined Dublin by saying that Dublin, Ireland is itself. That's not defining it by it's properties.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 10:24 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;100572 wrote:
I think it depends on the thing being defined. If we're defining a kind or category, like mermaids, we can easily define it by its properties. But remember, a kind has no outward representation. A kind is an abstraction.

Consider defining Dublin, Ireland by its properties.

We can do that. Dublin, Ireland has a specific set of properties.

Dublin, Ireland existed 200 years ago with a different set of properties.

How many Dublins are there? (flux)

I'll be out of touch for a while, so I'll cut to the chase. Start subtracting properties so that you can get to the ones that haven't changed. When you get there, you'll discover that you have defined Dublin by saying that Dublin, Ireland is itself. That's not defining it by it's properties.


There is one Dublin which has changed its properties through time, just as there is one Arjuna who has changed through time. Something can change and remain the same. And most things do.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 06:48 am
@kennethamy,
Arjuna wrote:

I'll be out of touch for a while, so I'll cut to the chase. Start subtracting properties so that you can get to the ones that haven't changed. When you get there, you'll discover that you have defined Dublin by saying that Dublin, Ireland is itself. That's not defining it by it's properties.


The fact that properties change with time does not mean that things aren't defined by their properties. Indeed, no matter the amount or speed of the change, the thing is still defined by its properties. Would we not call Dublin Dublin any more simply because a bakery burned down?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 06:57 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;100619 wrote:
The fact that properties change with time does not mean that things aren't defined by their properties. Indeed, no matter the amount or speed of the change, the thing is still defined by its properties. Would we not call Dublin Dublin any more simply because a bakery burned down?


This all raises the ancient philosophical issue of, persistence through change. How do things remain the same, although they change? Maybe I'll start a thread on this.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:01 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100620 wrote:
This all raises the ancient philosophical issue of, persistence through change. How do things remain the same, although they change? Maybe I'll start a thread on this.


Yeah, I was thinking of the ship example when I typed that. I think persistence through change definitely is relevant to this thread. We may not even need a new thread, to be honest.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:01 am
@kennethamy,
Properties are subjected to interpretation like anything else, they express comprehension up to a certain scale, just look at Newton and Einstein position about Gravity...no further...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:04 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;100622 wrote:
Properties are subjected to interpretation like anything else, they express comprehension up to a certain scale, just look at Newton and Einstein position about Gravity...no further...


Sometimes they are open to interpretation. For instance, the meaning of words (which, as kennethamy noted, is a property of words) can be interpreted differently depending on context. This does not mean that the word does not have properties, though. Don't go too far into the relativist realm or you'll find yourself persistently doubting even those things which are blatantly obvious. Then you'll just be one of those skeptics that liberally uses "subjective" in application to everything. :phone:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:06 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;100621 wrote:
Yeah, I was thinking of the ship example when I typed that. I think persistence through change definitely is relevant to this thread. We may not even need a new thread, to be honest.


Better to have a new thread. The issues are not the same, although they are related. Otherwise, confusion will reign.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:09 am
@kennethamy,
I would love to see that related with randomness...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:11 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;100625 wrote:
Sometimes they are open to interpretation. For instance, the meaning of words (which, as kennethamy noted, is a property of words) can be interpreted differently depending on context. This does not mean that the word does not have properties, though. Don't go too far into the relativist realm or you'll find yourself persistently doubting even those things which are blatantly obvious. Then you'll just be one of those skeptics that liberally uses "subjective" in application to everything. :phone:


What has "open to interpretation" to do with whether something has a property? A person has height however that is "interpreted" (whatever that means).
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:12 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;100628 wrote:
I would love to see that related with randomness...


What would you like to see related to randomness?

---------- Post added 10-30-2009 at 09:13 AM ----------

kennethamy;100629 wrote:
What has "open to interpretation" to do with whether something has a property? A person has height however that is "interpreted" (whatever that means).


It doesn't. That was my point. Even though someone's height could be debatable (that is, how tall they are), they still have the property height.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:16 am
@kennethamy,
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:25 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;100633 wrote:


What difference do those questions make? The person still has height whatever height is.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:34 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100634 wrote:
What difference do those questions make? The person still has height whatever height is.


Riiiiiiiight !!!... :detective:
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 08:23 am
@kennethamy,
Fil. Albuquerque wrote:

Right...:detective:


Was this a sarcastic response? If so, why do you disagree with kennethamy?

I sense you don't want to engage in conversation for some reason.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:09 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100626 wrote:
Better to have a new thread. The issues are not the same, although they are related. Otherwise, confusion will reign.


I'm in favor of that. A new thread, that is, not in letting confusion reign.
I was confused enough by the initial question, and now that I think I have
a grasp on it, I'd prefer my grip not be loosened by a related but divergent topic.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:19 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;100664 wrote:
I'm in favor of that. A new thread, that is, not in letting confusion reign.
I was confused enough by the initial question, and now that I think I have
a grasp on it, I'd prefer my grip not be loosened by a related but divergent topic.


So, now the question is, what do things that exist have, that things that don't exist do not have?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:22 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100666 wrote:
So, now the question is, what do things that exist have, that things that don't exist do not have?


I thought the answer was properties.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:14 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100666 wrote:
So, now the question is, what do things that exist have, that things that don't exist do not have?


X exists = There is something with the properties associated with X.

X does not exist = There is not something with the properties that would be associated with X

Examples:

Computer keyboards exist because there is something with the properties associated with computer keyboards.

Unicorns do not exist because there is not something with the (imagined) properties associated with unicorns.

Technically though, things that don't exist don't have anything. They don't exist. How can something that does not exist have properties of any sort (unless one is willing to say that "not existing" is a property in itself, but then I suppose one would be left asking what the properties of not existing are....)

So I wonder if the unicorn example might have to have the caveat of "as far as we know" attached to it, as it would only take the discovery of a single unicorn, no matter how implausible that might be, for the statement "unicorns do not exist" to come tumbling down.

I feel my grip slipping . . . .

TTM
 
 

 
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