Reasoning is a human faculty. Logic is the use of reasoning in its most efficient way. Dogs may reason in some elementary form, but they cannot draw complicated inferences.

Oh ya you can move it there! I didn't put it there as Lammenranta makes a big argument that he is not presenting on epistemological values, so I didn't want to post it and people get confused, and for a lack of better option I put it in politics.

---------- Post added 10-04-2009 at 01:54 PM ----------

Subjectivity9, I am going to have to think of your post for a while. Hopefully I will get back to it eventually. My brain feels like it did a marathon today lol.

Pathfinder,

On the downloading, I was not confounded or overwhelmed for some reason. Maybe that is because I am what is often called a “sensitive.” I have been like this all of my life since very early childhood.

Now maybe this is also because it didn’t come in like an overload of sensual data, but more like silence and intuition mixed. It also had a feeling of goodwill within it. Do you think that this is what some call "Grace".

It was only over the next following months that I realized a change in perspective, along with a certainty and clarity that couldn't be shaken, which up until that point I had been seeking with my mind. This however, at that point of my life, was not interpreted as being enlightenment. I found later that I was correct in my assessment.

Much of what came clear was familiar, perhaps because I had a long background in this area, and on reading others who had experienced such things before me down through the centuries. I had an intellectual map, if you will, on what to expect.

Wisdom seems to arrive on soft feet.

Everything that happens IMO is beneficial. Our minds may tell us that some event is unpleasant at the time. But what ever happens to us is definitely the shortest way home, considering who we think we are at the moment, and the baggage we are refusing to drop.

Sometimes we will refuse to believe that a stove is hot until we burn our fingers.

Right now I am in the peculiar position of understanding the truth of the matter about myself as Spirit, and at the very same time having mental habits of thought that must be cleared up over time.

I don’t know if this makes any sense to you, having experienced it yourself. But thoughts come into my head and I find them comfortable like old friends (engrams, or memory traces) and yet at the same time I know immediately, at the very same time, that they are not correct and I can simply throw them away. So I do without regret. This is sort of like wisdom is cleaning up my brain/computer and reprogramming it to match what I know now. (Like a Spiritual maturation of sorts.)

The way that I know now is, that I look directly at Spirit, and just know immediately what fits or conforms to what I am seeing. (Without working this out with the mind.)

Now I am speaking of Spiritual matters here and not of me being all-knowing about earthly matters. I could still easily add up a column of numbers and get the wrong answer. I have no idea what ison sale at Wal Mart without checking the ads.

Does this seem familiar to you as well?

When you speak about stored or accumulated knowledge on the subconscious level, are you referring to the Acasiac Records?

I am more Advaitist in my thinking than you are, I believe. Let me explain myself. I do not rule out the psychic worlds, reincarnation, or any number of things, having experience many of them personally, myself. (Flashbacks on previous lives, for one.) But I do however believe that all of these events and happenings reside within the Mind (Capital M) and not merely in the brain. Soul is transmigrating and learning.

Yet Spirit is transcendent of even these. Spirit remains untouched by finitude.

I would say that much of what you have said in this area is pretty much on target as far as you have gone.

Yes, Truth has no name. You simple cannot pin it down with symbols. And yes, it is not changing. What would the “One” change into?

Calling Spirit the ‘One’ even misses it. Because what sense does one make without two? It is empty of all this, and even empty of empty. And yet at the same time, Spirit is full to the very brim with Spirit itself, and knows itself as Spirit, the “I Am.” ( A paradox.)

Spirit is enough. Spirit needs no thing. Spirit it Pure Satisfaction without a need for other. Knowing this, we know our very Self directly.

Subjectivity9








_____________

If you would like me to be honest with you please try not to take offense to anything I tell you Sub. I will simply relay my thoughts and whatever they reveal to you or imply is not intended as insult or criticism.

First of all, you spoke about being 'sensitive' from an early age, and than you referred to some particular point ..."It was only over the next following months that I realized a change in perspective..." , I am not sure about this time frame you laid out Sub, the next months after what point?

You also spoke about grace and a feeling of returning home.

Then you went on to briefly touch on the thinking that you are comfortable with discerning your thoughts and finding the wisdom in them by looking into your self for the clarity.

Next you went on to suggest that you realize that there are many aspects of spirituality that you admit are very real, but you noted that spirit is transcendent of those, and further seemed to acknowledge spirit as the One separate from anything other than itself.

Now let me tell you what I surmise from your explanation.

Many of the enlightened ones of this world, (those who's consciousness' have reached evolved degrees high enough to become aware of higher truths), go through a phase of immaturity as this transition of understanding takes place, where they must 'let go of the baggage ' as you put it, and often they will believe they are learning new truths, which they may later have to toss aside as further revelation brings to light the fallacies. As they mature in their enlightenment they begin to realize that their revelations are not necessarily revelations of certain fact but are instead the cleaning out of the house.

So at first it is easy to feel comfortable with the process, and it will seem silent and intuitive, but, depending entirely on the degree of the individual consciousness of that particular life force, the process of enlightenment can go from comfortable to confusing through various stages of that development, and not just in one life span. The fact is that this is almost always a process that causes the mind to be constantly redefining its thinking and can become very confusing if a deliberate effort to control the process is not efforted.

You spoke about looking into your spirit. This is vital to that control process of keeping the mind under control, but I am not sure you understand exactly what you mean by looking at your spirit for this clarity.

From what I have heard from you Sub, it seems that you are in the midst of this process and have an awareness of your self that you have not quite been able to pinpoint. You know that it is there that you will find your reality and your connection to this One as you put it, but you are not complete about your understanding of this One or what your actual spirit is.

Of course you will believe that you are, because your consciousness is making you recognize this path you are on, but you will find that this path will have many twists and turns before you can actually comprehend the actual truth behind the spirit and the One.

Remember one thing of importance here Sub, do not attempt to determine your degree of enlightenment on the scale of one life span, just because you have been experiencing this process since early childhood means nothing on the scale of many life spans. The level of evolution of consciousness is not measured in one lifespan, but many.

To know yourself is to understand this, and be comfortable with the knowledge that you are continuously evolving, so that in any one particular level of evolution, you will not conclude anything at all about your reality, other than the fact that your consciousness is in a state of evolution.

Being open and receptive to what the consciousness brings to us is the key to allowing the process to develop efficiently and unhindered by baggage. The greatest hindrance to this process is the individual realizing their potential and getting caught up in the intellect of it as though they have discovered something of finality that they can rest assured on. It is easy to let your head swell with the amount of information you can now process, but that swelling can be a source of confusion, and you will not even realize it immediately. As a matter of fact you will take offense to anyone that points it out to you and defend what you think you have received with great fury and loyalty, believing that you are always discovering the truth through some higher ability. I think that this lack of control is actually to some degree the suffering that some can expereince as AD/HD and Autism.

The fact is that unless one makes a concerted effort to avoid that swelling egotism, and can deliberately keep their minds open and receptive to all information, slowly and decisively deciphering it and discerning it for logic and reason , and considering information based upon both, its degree of logic, and how the wisdom level of your consciousness is able to sort it out, one will be hindered and the process will slow, and it will become increasingly difficult to balance the vast amount of information that will present itself. Always remember that you have no way of knowing how old your consciousness is, or how much knowledge and wisdom is stored there waiting to be activated in this life. How much information can be made available to you, or that you can draw upon, is directly related to how efficiently you can balance the process of reception and discernment.

Right now I think it is vital for you to enter into a pattern of trying to understand what you have already received, focusing on those truths alone until they are clearer in your mind. There should be no fogginess surrounding the truth about your 'spirit/consciousness' and how it relates to creation and reality. Once you have swept away the fog your mind will be able to process further revelations much clearer.

You made reference to acasiac records. Are you referring to what some claim is some sort of a storage system surrounding the planet that all evolving minds draw their information from like a fountain of knowledge?

If that is what you meant, I personally have no reason to either believe this or discount it. It is an unknown as much as the makeup of any other unknown. I do however want to point out that the fact that you are even aware of this should prove to you that you have considered many suggestions in the course of your search for understanding.

This is exactly what I mean by keeping the mind receptive to ideas and using the stored evolved consciousness to discern it for truth and reasonable logic. Nothing is impossible in a universe as complex as ours. But that does not mean that everything is truth.

When you spoke of grace and home it also led me to think that you still have baggage left over from the theological teaching of heaven and afterlife. Again I hope you can use your level of enlightenment to clarify your thinking in this regard. If there is not a deliberate effort to seek clarification you will find your self stalled in the process until you can.

The home and the spirit that you speak of and have whirling around in your mind are real, and that is why you are comfortable with them. But they may not be as exactly defined as you may see them in your mind. You understand their reality but you have not yet pinpointed their identity.

This home is a point in the existence of your consciousness that you strive to reach, but it is not some heavenly kingdom or shambala of paradisic pleasure. And the spirit and One that you so vaguely refer to is not some internal spiritual identity that becomes who and what you are as an individual, or some deity that oversees all and wants you to connect with it in some way.

The truth about these things is something that you alone can come to in your evolving process. I cannot take you there. I can tell you that by learning how to focus on your consciousness that you will be able to sort it out. How long that takes will be determined by the skill you develop in focusing on your consciousness and drawing from it.

Ken,

I think that people very often misunderstand/misinterpret what animal can see and do, (Are capable of) simply because animals don’t convert everything into words. (But perhaps that is a whole n’other topic.

: ^ )

Some might say that logic is more efficient than reason. Others might argue that logic is reason truncated. Is a sound bite (logic) more efficient than a lecture (reason), even if the sound bite does grab one of the lecture’s major points, presents it fewer words, and make it obvious to behold? What's our hurry? : ^ )

Sometimes there is great wisdom to be found in the nuance and/or the connotations of reason.

I am not saying that logic doesn’t have its uses (of course it does), or that we should throw logic in the trash. We can obviously enjoy both as being the right tool for a particular job, much like a hammer and a computer serve separate needs. The hammer like logic gets right to the point, hits the nail right on the head. You wouldn’t want to bash a nail with a computer now, would you? ; ^ )

Yet at the same time the computer has more and far reaching capacities much like reasoning does.

Logic is like a trip to visit the in-laws, sometimes has to be done. But reason is like a trip around the world, it is more fun IMO, and can be life changing. ; ^ )

I would say that reason is the King, and logic is just one of his ambassadors, good for a particular task that may need doing. But I wax poetic. ; ^ )

Subjectivity9

---------- Post added 10-05-2009 at 08:08 AM ----------

Pathfinder,

I take no offence, practically ever, when someone presents to me their version of the truth. (As long as it remains civil, aka no name calling etc.)

I saw you here and wanted you to know this before I answered your last offering.

Be assured of this, my new friend. And thank you for sharing your wisdom with me. : ^ )

Subjectivity9

As I said, logic is the ability to draw inferences. To move from the known to the unknown by reasoning. Without drawing inferences we would be stuck in the immediate present, and not be able to know anything about the past, or of the future. Most animals are stuck in the present, and even the higher animal have only a limited ability to draw inferences. That is why animals have developed instincts, since without logic (the ability to draw inferences about the future) they could not have survived without instinct. Man has instincts too. For those matters he doesn't require logic.

Pathfinder,

Thanks for your gracious hand in friendship.

S9: Tell me this if you will. Do you believe that there is ever a time when the path runs out, has completed its self, or that we actually arrive at Realization or Enlightenment? So many don’t. Oh sure they pay lip service to arriving, but arriving is always out there somewhere in a future that never actually arrives. : ^ )

These persons are what some who call “path bound.” Or the path has actually become their obstacle.

Poonja (An enlightened disciple of Ramana) said that, (Paraphrased) “The mind is like a train that brings you to the destination (of Enlightenment). But when you arrive at this destination, you must step off this train.”

I know what you are saying about “Think you know” being a hindrance to receptivity. But I believe that the kind of knowing that hinders receptivity is mental knowing, and that you are quite right, if this is what you mean. But there is one kind of Knowing that isn’t mental knowing and it doesn’t use the brain as its vehicle. There is a Direct Knowing, or looking directly at Spirit, (“Spirit knows Spirit as Spirit.”) and perhaps this is what some are alluding to with the Third Eye, or Spiritual Seeing. Or as Jesus said, “For those who have the eyes to see.” (Actually the single eye.)

A swollen head/ego is certainly a danger. (But perhaps some souls are just too tired, or been around one too many times, to play that game any more, and it has lost it savor.)

I am ‘receptive only’ now, like a baby chick, mouth wide open, waiting to be fed.

I feel like I have been let out of a prison, where the walls were made of words and concepts. But I confess to being very new, a baby in this still. I believe that time is my friend and that I will settling in to this, “Having taken my seat in Spirit.”

Subjectivity9

---------- Post added 10-05-2009 at 01:22 PM ----------

Ok Ken,

No sense in just beating our heads against each other, we seem to be on opposite sides of this issue. So I went to our mutual friend Google and asked her advise. ; ^ )

The Greek word logos, means "reason," however, the word logic is used almost without exception to designate this science. The names dialectic and analytic are also used.

Logic is essentially directive.

Logicians are not agreed as to how logic itself should be defined. There are, in all, about two hundred different definitions of logic.

Hegel goes to the other extreme when he defines logic as "the science of the pure idea."

"Logic is the science and art which directs the act of the reason, by which a man in the exercise of his reason is enabled to proceed without error, confusion, or unnecessary difficulty."

The key word sees to be ‘order,’

So what I am seeing, tell me if I am wrong here, is that logic isn’t so much a “thing” (separate from reason) as it is a “how,” (some persons practice reason.) No wonder there is some confusion. : ^ )

Subjectivity9

Is there a difference between enlightenment and illumination?

For me no. It is what is happening every day in our lives.

Rich

When the sun comes up, right?

Or do you mean something more? If so, I think there is a difference.

Hey TT Man,

Long time no see. Or does it just feel that way? : ^ )

Wow, what a good question.

Personally, I would say that they are pretty much the same thing. I use these words interchangeable. But, “ I wouldn’t bet the ranch on this.” Most of us tend to use our words in a pretty sloppy fashion. That certainly doesn’t help with clarification now, does it kids?

If I keep this up, Google is going to start charging me rent. But I will take a “look/see,” (Australian for take a look), and see what I can find.

Do you have these differences nailed down? “Go ahead. Lay it on us.”

Or maybe we can figure this out between us.

But that still doesn't tell us what they are, or what kingdom they rule over.

Subjectivity9




__________________

Can enlightenment exist independent of the self?

Well, if I switched on the light in the room, I might say that the room was illuminated, but I certainly would not say it was enlightened. Would you?
I have no idea what your question means. People are enlightened when they understand something they have never before understood. Isn't that how the word is used?

No, I would not. This is precisely what I was working my way around to.



Dang. I was hoping to engage Subjectivity9 in a small game here . . .

Yes. I would hope you know that I know exactly what you mean by enlightened, as I'm guessing our definitions are the same, though I suspect others may offer different definitions.

Whatever works for you. Life isn't that complicated. It is what it is. For you, it might be the sun.

Rich

What do you mean by "what kingdom they rule over?"


But what is it for you?
I'm very keen to know what people think, as well as why they think it.
--------------
Another question:

What did Sri Ramakrishna mean by this statement?

"Do not seek illumination unless you seek it as a man whose hair is on fire seeks a pond."

For me it is what I observe and what I learn each day in my life.

Rich

I would consult a good dictionary. That's what I do when I am unsure of the meaning of a word. Doesn't everyone?

Now I'm confused. What are you responding to, and to whom are you directing your response?

You have quoted me, but in my full post I agreed with what you said . . . i.e. a room is illuminated, not enlightened, and so forth.

Thank you,
TTM

I was responding to your post, but not accusing you of not knowing the meaning of any word. You said that others may differ about the meaning, and I suggested that they look up the word, as anyone ought to do who is not sure about the meaning of a word. The meaning of a word is not a matter for speculation, or for opinion. It is a matter of fact. It is strange how a lot of people do not realize this. They ask someone, "What do you mean by "W", as if it were up to that person what the meaning of W is.